Let's discuss water retention and peak week

[Wayacrucis]

This is a controversial topic, but something that I think is worth discussing.

There are a couple of things that I'd look to point out first:

1. Many bodybuilders from the 90s claim that they stopped all AAS (orals included) and GH at 1-2 weeks out. Their reasoning behind this was that GH and AAS all led to some degree of water retention.

2. Many bodybuilders currently add in "hardeners" such as Winstrol, Halotestin and Proviron the last few weeks of a contest to obtain a dry and harder look.

Now, these two statements are somewhat contradictory. One, the guys from the 90s were of the school of taught that removing all AAS will lead to a drier look. Many guys at the moment, believe that adding certain compounds going into the show will lead to a drier look.

What I'd like to discuss is that how does say Winstrol or any other so called hardening agent cause a drier physique? A physique will appear drier, by either losing water under the skin or by having the muscles saturated with glycogen to the point of pushing against the skin.

So a lack of subcutaneous water retention and muscle fullness are the two main factors which produce a dry physique. Carbs are the primary factor leading to muscle fullness, assuming enough water and sodium are present.

Now, how do compounds like Winstrol, Halo, etc contribute to this look? From what I understand, we do not have any evidence which supports any AAS causing a loss of water retention. In fact, the opposite seems to be true.

So why add these compounds in the last few weeks? Thoughts?

 

[b-boy]

I dont have a scientific reason for you...sorry
But I have gone without and added winstrol and halo in and I can definitely say that winstrol and halo give this dry, veiny, hard, dense look that's hard to achieve without those drugs, my skin looks thinner with the drugs in play.

 

[Type-IIx]

My understanding is that guys would cut out injectables (AAS & rhGH) a couple weeks out from a show & mostly stuck to using Dbol and Adrol (and high dose Test and/or Deca) during off-season. This effectively removes the distinction between scenarios 1 & 2.

Besides Dbol – (Adrol is interesting in that it has progestagenic activity & probably serves primarily as a prohormone to 17α-methyl-5α-androstane-3α,17β-diol that has affinity for ER-α & is also a methyltestosterone metabolite) – virtually all oral 17AAs are nonaromatizable.

Nonaromatizable AAS all serve an antiestrogenic function at the tissue level (estrogen blockade) & at the pituitary (suppression of gonadotropin secretion and indirectly then, estrogen synthesis).

It just so happens that Halo is particularly androgenic (potently decreases fat mass by decreased differentiation of fat cell precursors, increased lipolysis, and reduced lipid accumulation) and so is an excellent fit for this use case (peaking).

Winstrol's antiestrogenic effects are particularly localized to the synovial cells (in joints) causing arthralgia (joint/bone pain) but may also involve procollagenous & glucocorticoid modulation via LAGS (but this results in a net increase in PR activation). It definitely has a "drying" effect, but might affect the ability to train with heavy loads.

Proviron is just weak, it does a fine job promoting a "hard look" and has some efficacy in promoting sexual function (libido, etc.). Halo seems better here, though.

In reality, I think that Anavar would be preferable to Winstrol and/or Proviron for this purpose (peaking).

 

[b-boy]

My understanding is that guys would cut out injectables (AAS & rhGH) a couple weeks out from a show & mostly stuck to using Dbol and Adrol (and high dose Test and/or Deca) during off-season. This effectively removes the distinction between scenarios 1 & 2.

Besides Dbol – (Adrol is interesting in that it has progestagenic activity & probably serves primarily as a prohormone to 17α-methyl-5α-androstane-3α,17β-diol that has affinity for ER-α & is also a methyltestosterone metabolite) – virtually all oral 17AAs are nonaromatizable.

Nonaromatizable AAS all serve an antiestrogenic function at the tissue level (estrogen blockade) & at the pituitary (suppression of gonadotropin secretion and indirectly then, estrogen synthesis).

It just so happens that Halo is particularly androgenic (potently decreases fat mass by decreased differentiation of fat cell precursors, increased lipolysis, and reduced lipid accumulation) and so is an excellent fit for this use case (peaking).

Winstrol's antiestrogenic effects are particularly localized to the synovial cells (in joints) causing arthralgia (joint/bone pain) but may also involve procollagenous & glucocorticoid modulation via LAGS (but this results in a net increase in PR activation). It definitely has a "drying" effect, but might affect the ability to train with heavy loads.

Proviron is just weak, it does a fine job promoting a "hard look" and has some efficacy in promoting sexual function (libido, etc.). Halo seems better here, though.

In reality, I think that Anavar would be preferable to Winstrol and/or Proviron for this purpose (peaking).

LOL.... my dude ^^^^

 

[Wayacrucis]

What's interesting is that I've been looking at studies for "dry" compounds and most suggest that there is some water retention.

Comparing Megestrol Acetate Therapy with Oxandrolone Therapy for HIV-Related Weight Loss: Similar Results in 2 Months

Abstract. Weight loss is known to impact survival among patients infected with human immunodeficiency virus (HIV) even in the era of highly active antiretr

academic.oup.com

For example the study below is with 20mg Var daily and it states Lean body mass accounted for 56% in the oxandrolone weight gain. Surely the other 44% is not bodyfat, which would suggest there is a notable amount of water retention. They gained about 2.5kgs which is about 5.5lbs. I mean this would suggest, that at the very least, these guys gained 1lb of water per 10mg of Var.

 

[b-boy]

What's interesting is that I've been looking at studies for "dry" compounds and most suggest that there is some water retention.

Comparing Megestrol Acetate Therapy with Oxandrolone Therapy for HIV-Related Weight Loss: Similar Results in 2 Months

Abstract. Weight loss is known to impact survival among patients infected with human immunodeficiency virus (HIV) even in the era of highly active antiretr

academic.oup.com

For example the study below is with 20mg Var daily and it states Lean body mass accounted for 56% in the oxandrolone weight gain. Surely the other 44% is not bodyfat, which would suggest there is a notable amount of water retention. They gained about 2.5kgs which is about 5.5lbs. I mean this would suggest, that at the very least, these guys gained 1lb of water per 10mg of Var.

If it's intra cellular water retention then it's only going to add to the hard dense ripped look just like a proper carb load.

 

[1fst400]

Stanozolol is has been used to treat lipodermatosclerosis. So, while it doesn't aromatize, it has the unique benefit of reducing skin thickness. I used it for the first time this year (injection) at 50 mg EOD for 5 weeks and saw my skin change within the first 2 weeks. Striations and grainy. Incredible.

 

[KingOfSushi]

My understanding is that guys would cut out injectables (AAS & rhGH) a couple weeks out from a show & mostly stuck to using Dbol and Adrol (and high dose Test and/or Deca) during off-season. This effectively removes the distinction between scenarios 1 & 2.

Besides Dbol – (Adrol is interesting in that it has progestagenic activity & probably serves primarily as a prohormone to 17α-methyl-5α-androstane-3α,17β-diol that has affinity for ER-α & is also a methyltestosterone metabolite) – virtually all oral 17AAs are nonaromatizable.

Nonaromatizable AAS all serve an antiestrogenic function at the tissue level (estrogen blockade) & at the pituitary (suppression of gonadotropin secretion and indirectly then, estrogen synthesis).

It just so happens that Halo is particularly androgenic (potently decreases fat mass by decreased differentiation of fat cell precursors, increased lipolysis, and reduced lipid accumulation) and so is an excellent fit for this use case (peaking).

Winstrol's antiestrogenic effects are particularly localized to the synovial cells (in joints) causing arthralgia (joint/bone pain) but may also involve procollagenous & glucocorticoid modulation via LAGS (but this results in a net increase in PR activation). It definitely has a "drying" effect, but might affect the ability to train with heavy loads.

Proviron is just weak, it does a fine job promoting a "hard look" and has some efficacy in promoting sexual function (libido, etc.). Halo seems better here, though.

In reality, I think that Anavar would be preferable to Winstrol and/or Proviron for this purpose (peaking).

Well put, I agree with everything here.

 

[KingOfSushi]

If it's intra cellular water retention then it's only going to add to the hard dense ripped look just like a proper carb load.

Exactly. If a muscle is more full of water it’ll only push against the skin harder… getting a tighter look!

 

[IFBBProDomCardone]

I dont have a scientific reason for you...sorry
But I have gone without and added winstrol and halo in and I can definitely say that winstrol and halo give this dry, veiny, hard, dense look that's hard to achieve without those drugs, my skin looks thinner with the drugs in play.

Agreed! Certain chems can absolutely be specific tools to achieve said look

 

[MR. BMJ]

Man, I flippin' love winstrol when at low bodyfat levels. It definitely gives a distinct dry, and clean look different than most other compounds. Agreed on the joint issues as well.....which is flippin' not cool, lol!

 

[Type-IIx]

What's interesting is that I've been looking at studies for "dry" compounds and most suggest that there is some water retention.

Comparing Megestrol Acetate Therapy with Oxandrolone Therapy for HIV-Related Weight Loss: Similar Results in 2 Months

Abstract. Weight loss is known to impact survival among patients infected with human immunodeficiency virus (HIV) even in the era of highly active antiretr

academic.oup.com

For example the study below is with 20mg Var daily and it states Lean body mass accounted for 56% in the oxandrolone weight gain. Surely the other 44% is not bodyfat, which would suggest there is a notable amount of water retention. They gained about 2.5kgs which is about 5.5lbs. I mean this would suggest, that at the very least, these guys gained 1lb of water per 10mg of Var.

LBM definitionally comprises water. It's the same as FFM or fat-free mass (everything that is not lipid).

 

[Doitagain]

For example the study below is with 20mg Var daily and it states Lean body mass accounted for 56% in the oxandrolone weight gain. Surely the other 44% is not bodyfat

It looks like it is, instead.
“In the megestrol acetate arm, gains in fat and in LBM, as determined by bioelectric impedance analysis, were 1.7 kg and 1.1 kg, respectively; in the oxandrolone arm, they were 1.1 kg and 1.4 kg, respectively.“

 

[KillerStack]

I think that sometimes certain practises become truths where everyone does things a certain way just because everyone else does it. Almost no one comes into a show on a lot of Dianabol but I bet it wouldn't necessarily be a disaster at all. Lots of other "water retentive" drugs may be in play but I can't recall anyone playing with Dianabol close to a show. Anyone? Guys may hear that "the pros" drop GH 2 weeks out so that is what they think must be done. Of course lots of guys now don't drop it like lots of guys don't drop long acting testosterone but some may have the impression that this is how it must be done when in practise they might have looked better keeping it in.

Many years ago I remember Bob Chicherillo saying only an idiot takes any steroids the last 2 weeks because they all cause water retention. Bob was in the Chad/Tom Prince circle at the time. Of course someone else might counter with that you actually want the increase in water (as long as you are lean enough of course). Some top guys really like test suspension in the days leading up to a show - a notoriously water retentive drug. Back in the day, like the 80s, suspension was really popular the last half of prep and this was before any antiestrogens. Some may have used some Teslac. They thought water base drugs were for cuts and "oils" caused bloat. Chad said Ronnie exploded when he dropped Nolvadex since Nolva blocked IGF from the growth. Would be interesting to know if in 1998 Ronnie had any antiestrogens in play (can't recall when Arimidex got popular or was released to market?). He did have very pronounced gyno in 1998 and I can't remember him having it before that. I wonder if Munzer did a lot of antiestrogens like Nolva?

Some pros have lots of problems with bloat, like Hunter Labrada, and I would assume they all use a lot of "peaking steroids" and antiestrogens. Especially those guys most likely load up drying out gear but it doesn't work. Is it the test or is it because of a massive amount of gear per se or something else?

 

[KillerStack]

It looks like it is, instead.
“In the megestrol acetate arm, gains in fat and in LBM, as determined by bioelectric impedance analysis, were 1.7 kg and 1.1 kg, respectively; in the oxandrolone arm, they were 1.1 kg and 1.4 kg, respectively.“

Megestrol is the drug Chad recommends for appetite. One guy here, forget his name, used it on Chad's instruction. I don't know if I'd use it, might be a bad idea overall?

 

[Type-IIx]

If it's intra cellular water retention then it's only going to add to the hard dense ripped look just like a proper carb load.

I'll take it one step further, and phrase it this way -- anabolic steroids build up the intracellular compartment by retaining water, nitrogen, potassium, phosphorus, and calcium (the constitutent parts of new muscle tissue).

So when we worry about spilling over or bloat we are concerned with the extracellular compartment. You intuitively know this.

I think that sometimes certain practises become truths where everyone does things a certain way just because everyone else does it. Almost no one comes into a show on a lot of Dianabol but I bet it wouldn't necessarily be a disaster at all. Lots of other "water retentive" drugs may be in play but I can't recall anyone playing with Dianabol close to a show. Anyone? Guys may hear that "the pros" drop GH 2 weeks out so that is what they think must be done. Of course lots of guys now don't drop it like lots of guys don't drop long acting testosterone but some may have the impression that this is how it must be done when in practise they might have looked better keeping it in.

Many years ago I remember Bob Chicherillo saying only an idiot takes any steroids the last 2 weeks because they all cause water retention. Bob was in the Chad/Tom Prince circle at the time. Of course someone else might counter with that you actually want the increase in water (as long as you are lean enough of course). Some top guys really like test suspension in the days leading up to a show - a notoriously water retentive drug. Back in the day, like the 80s, suspension was really popular the last half of prep and this was before any antiestrogens. Some may have used some Teslac. They thought water base drugs were for cuts and "oils" caused bloat. Chad said Ronnie exploded when he dropped Nolvadex since Nolva blocked IGF from the growth. Would be interesting to know if in 1998 Ronnie had any antiestrogens in play (can't recall when Arimidex got popular or was released to market?). He did have very pronounced gyno in 1998 and I can't remember him having it before that. I wonder if Munzer did a lot of antiestrogens like Nolva?

Some pros have lots of problems with bloat, like Hunter Labrada, and I would assume they all use a lot of "peaking steroids" and antiestrogens. Especially those guys most likely load up drying out gear but it doesn't work. Is it the test or is it because of a massive amount of gear per se or something else?

Testosterone suspension (aqueous testosterone base) is clearly misunderstood here. It is not known for fluid retention but rather its absence.

From Dr. Robert Kerr's The Practical Use of Anabolic Steroids with Athletes (1982), Chapter Twelve:

If "making weight"... the aqueous testosterone... might be considered... Daily or every other day injections are used with no gain in the fluid weight. No one enjoys being injected on a daily basis so this medication is limited to the last week, two at most. As the solution is water-based, a very small caliber hypodermic needle...pain-free. If the daily injections are desired and recommended to the patient, I would probably recommend 100 to 200 mg. per day of the aqueous testosterone solution...

Megestrol is the drug Chad recommends for appetite. One guy here, forget his name, used it on Chad's instruction. I don't know if I'd use it, might be a bad idea overall?

Megestrol acetate is used specifically for its preferential fat mass increase, because in HIV patients, low body fat levels predict mortality (low b.f. % means you die sooner).