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Low Ejection Fraction and LVH

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Feb 5, 2017
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Hi guys,
so we hear so many stories about steroids and damage to organs.. well, it can also happen without roids as seen in my case ... :-(...
I was @ the cardiologist yesterday because i was still unhappy with my BP
(around 145/85) although taking in 80mg telmisartan a day since 6 weeks.
So we decided to make an EKG to check for the heart.
Results:
LVH (60mm) and an Ejection Fraction of 47-51% (sometimes a bit higher, she couldnt tell exactly, lets assume worst case).
I want to make some lifestyle/supplement changes to avoid more damage being done (right now i feel great and the stress test @ cardiology surprised them, broke the record, hehehe :)..) also, there were no abnormalities seen in the stress test.
so here are my questions:
- I have ran clenbuterol in the past for diet phases (up to 140µcg/day).
--> drop completely and never touch again, right?
--> could i opt for low dose albuterol (3x 2-4mg a day?)
- I love taking pre workouts. I took them nearly daily over long periods and also strong ones (DMAA, DMHA,...)
--> drop completely and instead take 1-2 coffee or are they okay if used sparingly (1-2 times a week in half dosage maybe?)
- I am taking 20mg MK667 a day since 8 months
--> drop completely or dial back to 10?
- I also take a bunch of natural muscle enhancers (ursolic acid for example) and stuff like resveratrol, ashwaganda, ...
--> guess i can still take them, right?

for diet, i thought switchting to a diet lower in carbs and higher in healthy fats (avocados, nuts, ...). I would make 6 days low- moderate carbs (around 100) and 1 day high carb low fat (refeed-like)
thoughts?

for training, i guess i have to lower training volume and add cardio.
Right now im doing high volume but also pretty high intensity, training daily for weeks then take 1-2 days off. I guess that is why i lived of pre workouts.
Thought about switching to DC training 4 times a week and add 2 days moderate-high intensity cardio?

supp-wise, doc decided that we should add hct 12,5mg to the telmisartan (small diuretic dosage) to bring bp lower (aim for us is 130/70, i know its still not perfect but much better).
Also, i will add ubiquinol and resveratrol
thoughts?

thanks for your help guys :)
 

needthepump

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How much do you weigh? Pre-workout drinks are a no go, especially with your heart condition. 1 cup of coffee pre workout is about all you should do. HCT is a good addition and I have seen it do wonders paired with Lisinopril or other ace inhibitors. Some people just don't respond well to calcium channel blockers or ARB meds like you are currently taking. If the combo you are taking doesn't get you to 120/80 range I would request a change to a different type of bp med .

A slightly enlarged heart is normal in athletes and completely different than cardiomyopathy which is basically a large floppy weak heart.

Good luck and I hope you get that BP number down.
 
Last edited:

asteelz

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HCTZ is mild, good for lowering BP. beta blockers will increase your ejection fraction if need be.

You should consider daily cardio, if not daily then frequent 5x per week. Dietary changes could include a diet designed to reduce the output of endogenous insulin, reducing inflammation will help to promote longevity.
 

nothuman

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Hi guys,

so we hear so many stories about steroids and damage to organs.. well, it can also happen without roids as seen in my case ... :-(...

I was @ the cardiologist yesterday because i was still unhappy with my BP

(around 145/85) although taking in 80mg telmisartan a day since 6 weeks.

So we decided to make an EKG to check for the heart.

Results:

LVH (60mm) and an Ejection Fraction of 47-51% (sometimes a bit higher, she couldnt tell exactly, lets assume worst case).

I want to make some lifestyle/supplement changes to avoid more damage being done (right now i feel great and the stress test @ cardiology surprised them, broke the record, hehehe :)..) also, there were no abnormalities seen in the stress test.

so here are my questions:

- I have ran clenbuterol in the past for diet phases (up to 140µcg/day).

--> drop completely and never touch again, right?

--> could i opt for low dose albuterol (3x 2-4mg a day?)

- I love taking pre workouts. I took them nearly daily over long periods and also strong ones (DMAA, DMHA,...)

--> drop completely and instead take 1-2 coffee or are they okay if used sparingly (1-2 times a week in half dosage maybe?)

- I am taking 20mg MK667 a day since 8 months

--> drop completely or dial back to 10?

- I also take a bunch of natural muscle enhancers (ursolic acid for example) and stuff like resveratrol, ashwaganda, ...

--> guess i can still take them, right?



for diet, i thought switchting to a diet lower in carbs and higher in healthy fats (avocados, nuts, ...). I would make 6 days low- moderate carbs (around 100) and 1 day high carb low fat (refeed-like)

thoughts?



for training, i guess i have to lower training volume and add cardio.

Right now im doing high volume but also pretty high intensity, training daily for weeks then take 1-2 days off. I guess that is why i lived of pre workouts.

Thought about switching to DC training 4 times a week and add 2 days moderate-high intensity cardio?



supp-wise, doc decided that we should add hct 12,5mg to the telmisartan (small diuretic dosage) to bring bp lower (aim for us is 130/70, i know its still not perfect but much better).

Also, i will add ubiquinol and resveratrol

thoughts?



thanks for your help guys :)


Ditch clen

Black coffee is fine

As far as pre workouts go, it depends on the ingredients. Arc Reactor from Granite Supplements is pricier but doesn't seem to have any harmful ingredients. You could take that and add taurine (important for heart health) to it. Otherwise, just make sure to take citrulline malate pre workout or whenever.

Ditch MK677

Keep taking res and ashwaghanda. Add Arjuna Gold and pycnogenol to boost EF. Also ubiquinol if you're not already taking it (adding selenium to ubiquinol enhances the effects). Also take two carditone caps per day to lower BP

Do the new proposed diet you mention

Absolutely add cardio. Make sure it's HIIT cardio. The difference in health between that and normal cardio is enormous. Every other day. You can do LISS the other days you don't do HIIT.

As for weight training, BREATHE out during the rep. Don't hold your breath and valsalva during the movement. May have to go lighter for this.
 
Last edited:

goal245

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Elvia1023

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Everyone has pretty much covered everything.

I think with a new and consistent diet and adding in HIT cardio your blood pressure will go down to where it needs to be even without medication. However I see you will be on 2 medications which is fine as you will be monitored. Just see how things go. Usually I would recommend carditone (like NH did) but that may not be needed with everything else. Ideally in the future you may be able to get off bp medication due to changes you make in diet and cardio.

No clen whatsoever.

No MK-677 as you don't really want to be doing anything that increases water retention and fast as it just puts you at risk especially if you already have heart and bp issues.

As NH mentioned pre workouts could be ok if you pick carefully. Although you are best just dropping them and using coffee and a nice dose of citrulline malate pre workout. Tadalafil/cialis could be used to great effect at a low dose but with all your new changes (bp related) you would have to be careful and monitor things closely.

I would lower your weightlifting volume to compensate for the sharp increase in cardio. Still train hard but nothing crazy and just follow a healthy plan training wise for the next 6-8 weeks. Then you can look at making adjustments or starting a new training program.

Your new diet sounds great just make sure it's filled with good quality foods. Make sure you eat lot's of low carb fruit and veg such as garlic, mushrooms, onions, blueberries, blackberries etc.

Supplement wise add in things like ubiquinol, pycnogenol, citrulline malate etc.

Good luck and keep us updated on here if you want :)
 
Last edited:

Massive G

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Many guys I know that banged clen ephedrine caffeine aspirin and T3 stacks back in the 90's have pretty bad heart issues these days.
Clenbuterol is horrible for the heart as well as the BP and elevated HR's and body temps.
 

[email protected]

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Messages
317
Hey guys,
first of all thanks for all the detailed information and help, i really appreciate that!!
Should i really do HIIT Cardio (for me that means all out 30-60second intervals with heart rate up tp 180)
is that really better for the heart? I did that and can do that but was recently a bit scared to do due to my heart..
Ok, i will check out for new pre workouts. Right my my pre wos all have dmaa/DMHA/AMP or yohimbine, stuff i dont wanne take anymore..
could i take 2-4mg albuterol pwo for a boost? Studies showed it seems to be safe @ human effective doses (which is 2-4mg)
I will ditch the stuff you mentioned.
Right now i take ubiquinol 200mg a day, will up the dose to 400.
Resveratrol bulk powder 750-1000mg a day
multi, fish oil, krill oil, vit D, ashwaganda, zinc, mag, carnitine, ursolic acid, 7-keto, berberine and some other natural supps.
also Curcumin 95 with piperine (upgrade to a better one? which is the best type?)
I will add arjuna gold and pycnogenol. I have also ordered D-ribose yesterday after i have read it helps.

Can i do something like DC training 4 times a week or should i still opt for a higher volume plan with lower intensity?

I will keep you updated of course. My doc told me i should make an appointment at a specialised clinic. Will call them tomorrow for an appointment and keep you on track :)
btw, just to clarify: I dont have any lifestyle problems with my current situation. I feel good. But i dont want to have problems in future, thats why i want to change my bodybuilding lifestyle as good as possible, even if this means some muscleloss and fat gain.
To answer the questions, i am 84kg right now with a bodyfat of 11%.
I come out of a diet (well, 3 weeks ago, gained soime fat since then already) where i have used a total of 5 weeks clen (2on/2off/2on/2off/1on) up to 140mcg.
Maybe my EF is so bad because my hard stim use was so recently..
 

nothuman

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Hey guys,

first of all thanks for all the detailed information and help, i really appreciate that!!

Should i really do HIIT Cardio (for me that means all out 30-60second intervals with heart rate up tp 180)

is that really better for the heart? I did that and can do that but was recently a bit scared to do due to my heart..

Ok, i will check out for new pre workouts. Right my my pre wos all have dmaa/DMHA/AMP or yohimbine, stuff i dont wanne take anymore..

could i take 2-4mg albuterol pwo for a boost? Studies showed it seems to be safe @ human effective doses (which is 2-4mg)

I will ditch the stuff you mentioned.

Right now i take ubiquinol 200mg a day, will up the dose to 400.

Resveratrol bulk powder 750-1000mg a day

multi, fish oil, krill oil, vit D, ashwaganda, zinc, mag, carnitine, ursolic acid, 7-keto, berberine and some other natural supps.

also Curcumin 95 with piperine (upgrade to a better one? which is the best type?)

I will add arjuna gold and pycnogenol. I have also ordered D-ribose yesterday after i have read it helps.



Can i do something like DC training 4 times a week or should i still opt for a higher volume plan with lower intensity?



I will keep you updated of course. My doc told me i should make an appointment at a specialised clinic. Will call them tomorrow for an appointment and keep you on track :)

btw, just to clarify: I dont have any lifestyle problems with my current situation. I feel good. But i dont want to have problems in future, thats why i want to change my bodybuilding lifestyle as good as possible, even if this means some muscleloss and fat gain.

To answer the questions, i am 84kg right now with a bodyfat of 11%.

I come out of a diet (well, 3 weeks ago, gained soime fat since then already) where i have used a total of 5 weeks clen (2on/2off/2on/2off/1on) up to 140mcg.

Maybe my EF is so bad because my hard stim use was so recently..


Yes I forgot to mention D-Ribose. Very good addition.

Don't know enough about albuterol to comment about that.

There is a lot of debate as to what form of curcumin is the best unfortunately

Yes HIIT is better for the heart. There are millions of articles about this if you google it. You might over train if you do too much though, that's why 3-4 days a week is best and if you want to do extra cardio, you can do LIIS the other days.

I think if you do everything you're saying you're going to do, there is a solid chance your EF jumps back up into the normal range.
 

aphextwin

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There's also studies showing Clen actually helps heart patients.
 

aphextwin

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I would look up the study if I had time….Don't quote me.
 

Phattony

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Right now i take ubiquinol 200mg a day, will up the dose to 400.
Resveratrol bulk powder 750-1000mg a day
multi, fish oil, krill oil, vit D, ashwaganda, zinc, mag, carnitine, ursolic acid, 7-keto, berberine and some other natural supps.
also Curcumin 95 with piperine (upgrade to a better one? which is the best type?)?
Jarrow or doctors best curcumin phytosome (Meriva) are what I would recommend... take 2-3 caps 3 times a day.

You might think about adding nattokinase. It's a enzyme that has been shown to clean plaque out of the vascular system and it also functions as a anti inflammatory.
 

STEVO 47

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I would add high dose curcumin to your supplements. January of 2016 my ejection fraction was 30-35%... now it is 55-60%. I don't have time to go into great detail but if you check out this curcumin thread some science is provided by doggcrapp that shows it can remodel heart tissue. I share a bit of my story also...

http://www.professionalmuscle.com/f...forum/136404-curcumin-overhyped-trend-10.html
Glade you posted this. Having issues too. Enlarged weak heart with EF at 35 to 40 %. including thicking left vent walls. Taking lisinopril 5mg & carvedilol 6.25. Results years of untreated high blood pressure.
Phattony, not sure if you mentioned or I missed it but did you have any thickening of the heart wall tissue ?
 

pesty4077

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Jarrow or doctors best curcumin phytosome (Meriva) are what I would recommend... take 2-3 caps 3 times a day.

You might think about adding nattokinase. It's a enzyme that has been shown to clean plaque out of the vascular system and it also functions as a anti inflammatory.
It is a Japanese soy bean. Good for thinning blood out too. Will help with DVT too.

Nattokinase is an enzyme (a protein that speeds up biochemical reactions) that is extracted from a popular Japanese food called natto. Natto is boiled soybeans that have been fermented with a bacterium called Bacillus natto.

Natto has been used as a folk remedy for diseases of the heart and circulatory system (cardiovascular disease) for hundreds of years. Nattokinase, the chemical in natto that is probably responsible for its effects, was discovered by a University of Chicago researcher, Dr. Hiroyuki Sumi.

You won’t find nattokinase in soy foods other than natto, since nattokinase is produced through the specific fermentation process used to make natto.

Nattokinase is used for cardiovascular diseases including heart disease, high blood pressure, stroke, chest pain (angina), deep vein thrombosis (DVT), “hardening of the arteries” (atherosclerosis), hemorrhoids, varicose veins, poor circulation, and peripheral artery disease (PAD).

It is also used for pain, fibromyalgia, chronic fatigue syndrome, endometriosis, uterine fibroids, muscle spasms, infertility, cancer, and a vitamin-deficiency disease called beriberi.

How does it work?
Nattokinase decreases the ability of blood to clot. This "thins the blood" and might protect against conditions caused by blood clots such as stroke, heart attack, and others.
 

j2048b

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It is a Japanese soy bean. Good for thinning blood out too. Will help with DVT too.

Nattokinase is an enzyme (a protein that speeds up biochemical reactions) that is extracted from a popular Japanese food called natto. Natto is boiled soybeans that have been fermented with a bacterium called Bacillus natto.

Natto has been used as a folk remedy for diseases of the heart and circulatory system (cardiovascular disease) for hundreds of years. Nattokinase, the chemical in natto that is probably responsible for its effects, was discovered by a University of Chicago researcher, Dr. Hiroyuki Sumi.

You won’t find nattokinase in soy foods other than natto, since nattokinase is produced through the specific fermentation process used to make natto.

Nattokinase is used for cardiovascular diseases including heart disease, high blood pressure, stroke, chest pain (angina), deep vein thrombosis (DVT), “hardening of the arteries” (atherosclerosis), hemorrhoids, varicose veins, poor circulation, and peripheral artery disease (PAD).

It is also used for pain, fibromyalgia, chronic fatigue syndrome, endometriosis, uterine fibroids, muscle spasms, infertility, cancer, and a vitamin-deficiency disease called beriberi.

How does it work?
Nattokinase decreases the ability of blood to clot. This "thins the blood" and might protect against conditions caused by blood clots such as stroke, heart attack, and others.
How much is recommended? Natto wise? And when is it best to take

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pesty4077

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How much is recommended? Natto wise? And when is it best to take

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I take Doctor's Best veggie caps. I take 1 2000 FUs along (1 cap) with 81 MG of aspirin per day.
 

j2048b

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I take Doctor's Best veggie caps. I take 1 2000 FUs along (1 cap) with 81 MG of aspirin per day.
Before bed as thats best for fibrogen or early morning?

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pesty4077

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Before bed as thats best for fibrogen or early morning?

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I just take it in the morning.
 

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thanks again for all your posts, you are great guys.
I have started yesterday with my new program.
I will train whatever i "feel" like i have/want to train for a maximum of 45mins, then i either add LISS Cardio on top (45 min) or HIIT (20min HIIT, 15-20min moderate).
For my days where i do LISS i will train at home. I have a bench here, some barbells, weights, pull up and so on. So i will make a small session.
yesterday was:
4x Barbell Press 8reps
3x Decline
2x Incline
2x Dips
Done in 35min, after that i have done 45min LISS on the bike.
No Failure!
My health is more important than a sport where i do not even compete.. so i dont care what others at the gym say :p
Today i will probably train back and shoulders. Again, maximum 45mins, after that HIIT+MISS.
I went to the store on saturday evening to prepare for my new diet plan.
Bought some avocados, some almonds, greek joghurt (full fat), quark (same as cotton cheese but smoother) and fruits. Will not eat gluten for a while (would you get rid of dairy too? i dont have problems with it and love it!)
thanks phattony, will go ahead and buy it!!
i will also look into nattokinase, thx guys.
btw, couldnt find arjuna gold here in europe. I have bought this one:
https://de.iherb.com/pr/himalaya-herbal-healthcare-arjuna-cardiac-support-60-caplets/3686
pretty similar, should be okay, or? bought 2 packs.
 

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