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Modern Bodybuilding and Health

Magnum

Active member
Kilo Klub Member
Registered
Joined
Feb 7, 2004
Messages
1,911
Seems there have been quite a few people on here who have been having heart problems and it also seems that it is getting more common. I've been wondering for a while as to why this is happening and to be honest I couldn't tell you exactly why. I do have an opinion on it and I think that it is at least plausable and something that should be taken into consideration.

Guys are definitely taking more drugs today than ever. Even guys who will never compete who may want to look good all year round, which to be honest makes it worse because years ago guys usually came off after a show. Now with guys who never compete, they stay on most of the year so they can perpetually look good. Not a good idea in my opinion.

Steroids aside we also are seeing guys taking a different array of drugs such as cancer drugs, insulin, peptides etc. Not saying that these things can't be used BUT I think they are overused and some of this stuff should never be used. Just because you don't feel a side effect doesn't mean a drug is not doing damage to your body.

Think for a minute of all the stress that is put on the body, especially the heart. The average guy who competes is taking a ton of test, (not good IMO) more on this later, insulin, (an aging hormone that is also stressing the heart. Has anyone ever taken their HR about a half hour after shooting slin? Eating massive amounts of food, which also is not just straining your heart but other organs, and training too is another one. Every single day you go to the gym and your heart is being pushed to max levels every set with each rep, trying to pump massive amounts of blood to keep up with the demand over and over again, and then when you are done what do you do? You get on the treadmill for more heart stimulation.

Nothing wrong with training hard, but training to extreme failure especially while doing squats is going to wear out your heart muscle over time. This also goes for these stupid freakin aerobic classes and the instructors who tell you that you need to have your heart rate sky high for X amount of time so you can be strong and healthy just like them. The human body is not meant to handle this kind of stress every day over and over again. Do some research and you will see quite a few athletes who are now having heart problems and some who have dropped dead. Long distance runners, rugby players, tri athletes, the list goes on.

I hear a lot of guys say test is best. Well, I never liked test. In fact, anything over 250 mgs made me feel terrible. Water retention, increased heart rate and more. I also noticed that it had nothing to do with how I ate or what I weighed. Eating clean and being fairly lean made no difference. I know a lot of guys who take high dose test and for many years and feel fine, but for me and others that I have talked to they feel the same as I do. Like I said, just because you feel fine doesn't mean that there isn't damage being done. Remember, steroids were invented in an attempt to take away the nasty androgen side effects. IMO there is never a good reason to constantly pump a ton of androgens in your body for years on end. It is eventually going to destroy your heart.

Getting back to the training to extreme failure subject. If I remember correctly there was a post awhile back about how guys who took steroids had a higher instance of an enlarged heart and or thickening of the heart wall. Then someone posted a study that showed even when not using steroids the same thing happened to athletes. NO SHIT! Can't believe there needed to be studies done to prove this. It's common sense that after years of heavy strain on the heart this will happen.

Another drug that I think should not be used unless you are a competitor and in small amount is trenbolone. Just a nasty very harsh drug that is hard on the body especially the kidneys. Even Dan Duchaine thought that tren was too strong of a steroid and should be used only for serious competitive bodybuilders. Some steroids just don't seem to agree with the human body and I think tren is one of them.

Bodybuilding and lifting weights in general has become nothing more than a huge chemical cluster fuck over the years. People need to take a step back and actually look at how they are treating their body. Lifting weights used to be the cornerstone of muscle growth with maybe a few shorts cycles a year, to taking a list of drugs so long it's embarassing to even write down. Add to this being able to use extremely massive amounts of weights because of the huge amounts of drugs that they use and this in turn puts even more stress on the body because now you can use 2000 pounds on the leg press, and 600 pounds for reps on squats and people still make comments like, why don't we see physiques like arnold anymore or even the guys back in the late 80's early 90's. Yeah I wonder why. I also wonder why these guys are constantly tearing muscle off the bone and losing the function of their kidneys and other organs.

I almost forgot another very healthy trend that is going on that you never saw as much years ago. Gaining 50 to 80 pounds after a show in an attempt to be the "heaviest" guy in the gym, not necessarily the biggest. Lord knows it's very healthy to gain back 30 pounds of water weight in the first 2 to 3 days after your show. This I'm sure has nothing to do with failing hearts. I see this being done over and over again and this is one of the MAIN things that I stressed to guys when I trained them. Be very careful reintroducing fluids and food back to the body. Even if you are not using diuretics bad things can happen and will, but obviously even more so while using drugs to get dry. Just a few of the many thoughts that go thru my head about the current situation.
 
I think you are right on all counts. You even forgot stimulants which a lot of people seem to be popping like candy.

Now that we're at it, Magnum, what is your opinion on taking 10 mg/kg caffeine and then going to the gym to do some heavy squats (preferably to failure to add to the strain) ?
 
Seems there have been quite a few people on here who have been having heart problems and it also seems that it is getting more common. I've been wondering for a while as to why this is happening and to be honest I couldn't tell you exactly why. I do have an opinion on it and I think that it is at least plausable and something that should be taken into consideration.

Guys are definitely taking more drugs today than ever. Even guys who will never compete who may want to look good all year round, which to be honest makes it worse because years ago guys usually came off after a show. Now with guys who never compete, they stay on most of the year so they can perpetually look good. Not a good idea in my opinion.

Steroids aside we also are seeing guys taking a different array of drugs such as cancer drugs, insulin, peptides etc. Not saying that these things can't be used BUT I think they are overused and some of this stuff should never be used. Just because you don't feel a side effect doesn't mean a drug is not doing damage to your body.

Think for a minute of all the stress that is put on the body, especially the heart. The average guy who competes is taking a ton of test, (not good IMO) more on this later, insulin, (an aging hormone that is also stressing the heart. Has anyone ever taken their HR about a half hour after shooting slin? Eating massive amounts of food, which also is not just straining your heart but other organs, and training too is another one. Every single day you go to the gym and your heart is being pushed to max levels every set with each rep, trying to pump massive amounts of blood to keep up with the demand over and over again, and then when you are done what do you do? You get on the treadmill for more heart stimulation.

Nothing wrong with training hard, but training to extreme failure especially while doing squats is going to wear out your heart muscle over time. This also goes for these stupid freakin aerobic classes and the instructors who tell you that you need to have your heart rate sky high for X amount of time so you can be strong and healthy just like them. The human body is not meant to handle this kind of stress every day over and over again. Do some research and you will see quite a few athletes who are now having heart problems and some who have dropped dead. Long distance runners, rugby players, tri athletes, the list goes on.

I hear a lot of guys say test is best. Well, I never liked test. In fact, anything over 250 mgs made me feel terrible. Water retention, increased heart rate and more. I also noticed that it had nothing to do with how I ate or what I weighed. Eating clean and being fairly lean made no difference. I know a lot of guys who take high dose test and for many years and feel fine, but for me and others that I have talked to they feel the same as I do. Like I said, just because you feel fine doesn't mean that there isn't damage being done. Remember, steroids were invented in an attempt to take away the nasty androgen side effects. IMO there is never a good reason to constantly pump a ton of androgens in your body for years on end. It is eventually going to destroy your heart.

Getting back to the training to extreme failure subject. If I remember correctly there was a post awhile back about how guys who took steroids had a higher instance of an enlarged heart and or thickening of the heart wall. Then someone posted a study that showed even when not using steroids the same thing happened to athletes. NO SHIT! Can't believe there needed to be studies done to prove this. It's common sense that after years of heavy strain on the heart this will happen.

Another drug that I think should not be used unless you are a competitor and in small amount is trenbolone. Just a nasty very harsh drug that is hard on the body especially the kidneys. Even Dan Duchaine thought that tren was too strong of a steroid and should be used only for serious competitive bodybuilders. Some steroids just don't seem to agree with the human body and I think tren is one of them.

Bodybuilding and lifting weights in general has become nothing more than a huge chemical cluster fuck over the years. People need to take a step back and actually look at how they are treating their body. Lifting weights used to be the cornerstone of muscle growth with maybe a few shorts cycles a year, to taking a list of drugs so long it's embarassing to even write down. Add to this being able to use extremely massive amounts of weights because of the huge amounts of drugs that they use and this in turn puts even more stress on the body because now you can use 2000 pounds on the leg press, and 600 pounds for reps on squats and people still make comments like, why don't we see physiques like arnold anymore or even the guys back in the late 80's early 90's. Yeah I wonder why. I also wonder why these guys are constantly tearing muscle off the bone and losing the function of their kidneys and other organs.

I almost forgot another very healthy trend that is going on that you never saw as much years ago. Gaining 50 to 80 pounds after a show in an attempt to be the "heaviest" guy in the gym, not necessarily the biggest. Lord knows it's very healthy to gain back 30 pounds of water weight in the first 2 to 3 days after your show. This I'm sure has nothing to do with failing hearts. I see this being done over and over again and this is one of the MAIN things that I stressed to guys when I trained them. Be very careful reintroducing fluids and food back to the body. Even if you are not using diuretics bad things can happen and will, but obviously even more so while using drugs to get dry. Just a few of the many thoughts that go thru my head about the current situation.

^^^^Agreed 100%!!!! I see the list of meds some of these guys are on and they don't even compete! I guess when you are younger you think you are immortal. I don't understand all the extra drugs being used if you aren't a serious competitor. You just cannot look good with a failing heart or jaundice from a bad liver. I have noticed all of the posts about health problems on here as well and it scares me. I am glad I have seen these posts though because I was getting ready to get back into the scene after a decade off from it. Now, I am counting my blessings and realizing that I have the body God gave me and thats it. I am not willing to push through my genetic threshold for a few more pounds of muscle at the expense of my kids/wife not having a breathing husband/father!!

Take care all!!!
 
I think you are right on all counts. You even forgot stimulants which a lot of people seem to be popping like candy.

Now that we're at it, Magnum, what is your opinion on taking 10 mg/kg caffeine and then going to the gym to do some heavy squats (preferably to failure to add to the strain) ?

Yep, clenbuterol has to be one of the drugs hardest on the heart IMO.
 
Awesome post Magnum!

I like how you brought up the fact about guys getting so heavy these days and lifting such heavy weights puts a tremendous amount of stress on the heart during the lifting. I dont think its just a coincidence that I had my heart attack while I was doing a set of 12 reps with 455 lbs. That was a lot of weight for me, I weighed about 225 lbs at the time.

I do have a hypothesis that walking around a lean 8% bf 275 lbs is harder on the heart than being 275 lbs at 18% bf. To me the body has to work harder to supply all of that muscle on the lean guy, wheras the "fatter" guy doesnt have near the muscle mass to supply. Fat doesnt really have any blood supply, so the heart doesnt have to labor for it and the fat is just kinda along for the ride. How many guys have you seen that are a lean 275-300 lbs walk around and not be out of breathe just going up steps or trying to talk? I remember talking to Ronnie Coleman at the Arnold and he couldnt speak an entire sentence without having to gasp for a breathe of air.
 
So to stay on the healthy side with all of this then what would someone need to use to be as big as possible while not running into problems, say if someone would want to have huge size while staying around 8 to 10% bodyfat and not abusing theirselves with precontest drugs and going for more the Larry Scott, Franco, Arnold look and staying on the safe side with all of this?
 
What I've been told

Two old timers I've spoken about this both spoke about testosterone as being a dirty and 'evil' drug. One of them (Willem Jonkman, quite famous in Holland) said testosterone makes your body go way too far beyond it's capabilities, that it gives too much of a superman-feeling. What they told me they used was the three things you always hear: dbol, deca and primobolan.
 
Seeing this post makes me think of all the guys on the boards now rushing to try Methyl-tren :eek:
 
Seeing this post makes me think of all the guys on the boards now rushing to try Methyl-tren :eek:

Yeah, I have to agree with Magnum on this one. Tren might be one of the best producers of gains but it also seems to be one of the hardest on the body. Nothing made my blood pressure spike like Tren. When I started using tren was when I finally had to break down and go on a bp med from my doc.
 
SEOs and heart health - any comment on that Magnum?

That guy Mike who mods Mayhem and now works for MD always blamed SEO for many of the heart issues seen. Any link you can see?
 
Two old timers I've spoken about this both spoke about testosterone as being a dirty and 'evil' drug. One of them (Willem Jonkman, quite famous in Holland) said testosterone makes your body go way too far beyond it's capabilities, that it gives too much of a superman-feeling. What they told me they used was the three things you always hear: dbol, deca and primobolan.

I think its dose related. Deca and dbol increase strength more than test.

Deca will cause some people serious problems with water retention and blood pressure. I saw a study recently that showed mg per mg deca was multiple times more dangerous to heart tissue compared to testosterone.

dbol can cuase water retention(which can cause high blood pressure) and is toxic to your liver

Some drugs aren't safe even in low doses and nothing is safe in high doses!

I've posted a million times here about the cardiovascular risk of nolvadex. Nolvadex should never be taken by anyone. There are much less dangerous alternatives available
 
Two old timers I've spoken about this both spoke about testosterone as being a dirty and 'evil' drug. One of them (Willem Jonkman, quite famous in Holland) said testosterone makes your body go way too far beyond it's capabilities, that it gives too much of a superman-feeling. What they told me they used was the three things you always hear: dbol, deca and primobolan.[/QUOTE but now they say deca is real bad on the heart.face it guys all drugs when used to much are not going to do you any favors.
 
it all comes down to dosage guys.. i have said it before.. there is never a need for 5-700 mgs of tren.. but 200 mgs does wonders.. there is a article in the new md about the benefits of tren.. no estro conversion, no dht conversion and less harsh on the prostate in studies.. so why does tren have a bad rep? people take too much of it.. tren is 3 times more androgenic then test.. so why is one taking 5oo mgs of this stuff. it is bound to bite ya.. everything is about dosage.. 30 mgs of dbol is good. 100 is silly.. 4 ius of gh is good.. 10-12 a day is silly..

magnum and i have talked about the anabolic and androgenic debate before.. if you take loads of test you need the following: anti e to keep estro levels at bay .. dht inhibitor to protect hair and prostate.. these drugs are not without health risks themselves.. then add in clen ect and you have issues a brewing.. especially if you are prone to heart problems..

i remember being in venice beach with my buddy dave and talking with a competitor who ya all know.. he was telling dave what he was taking.. he took almost all anabolic based compounds.. masterone, primo, eq.. and only 250 of sust a week.. said test was nasty for him.. he did not seem worse for wear.. so remember, when you have to take numerous compounds to off set the effects of a drug it may not be worth it.. there are others out there that were made to get around that..
 
I think its dose related. Deca and dbol increase strength more than test.

Deca will cause some people serious problems with water retention and blood pressure. I saw a study recently that showed mg per mg deca was multiple times more dangerous to heart tissue compared to testosterone.

dbol can cuase water retention(which can cause high blood pressure) and is toxic to your liver

Some drugs aren't safe even in low doses and nothing is safe in high doses!

I've posted a million times here about the cardiovascular risk of nolvadex. Nolvadex should never be taken by anyone. There are much less dangerous alternatives available

I agree it's probably more a matter of them using less (both less drugs and lower doses) than are used now, rather than testosterone being the culprit.

Can you post the study on deca? Never would have guessed deca would actually be more heart-unfriendly than an androgen. But then again I've never used deca myself and on test I can definately feel my heart being worked hard even when in complete rest.
 
I think these threads are good ... but so many pieces to the puzzle makes one wonder what is the best way to run anything...
 
I also agree 100%.

I think most of these problems are dose dependent or pre-existing conditions.

Unless you are doing high ranked shows, you are kidding yourself if you think anyone needs the doses I see thrown around this board.
 
its quite simple guys...go to a heart doc once a year if you are going to do this stuff...
it is beyond me how poeple will not forget their shots of tren, wont miss a day at the gym for years on end but will not make a fucken appointment for the doctor!!!

there are people prone to disease and problems and if you dont get checked it may be too late when you find out...get the full blood workups and get checked out...and not by your local gp quacks
 
I think you are right on all counts. You even forgot stimulants which a lot of people seem to be popping like candy.

Now that we're at it, Magnum, what is your opinion on taking 10 mg/kg caffeine and then going to the gym to do some heavy squats (preferably to failure to add to the strain) ?

I don't think that a couple of hundred mgs will be a big deal. There is use and abuse though so keep that in mind.
 

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