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Muscle confusion

Johnny Bravo

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my .02

I think that you should mix it up alittle, I used to train real heavy for a long time and hit a wall as far as growth goes. Since I have switched to heavy high reps. I have started to see changes. I think the FORM is more important then weight is. perfect form = perfect physique, sloppy form = sloppy physique.
 

Mr_Magoo

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LATS said:
phil, is it any wonder why i love ya lol. i completely believe that inclines are basically worthless.. i have had this discussion before on other boards and you would have thought that i shot the pope. i believe that all pec work should be done in your strongest position..a little incline is fine (10 degress or so) but, for the most part it should be done on a flat bench..anyway, i believe that the muscle confusion thing is highly overstated..like the muscle has a brain of its own..the most important thing is overload in my opinion..but, how can ya overload if you are constantly taking the movement away to "confuse" the muscle?? the only way to get overload is to stick to the basic exercises that allow you to handle the most weight...day after day..BUT, I COULD BE WRONG..LOL
absolutely correct although i would disagree on the incline comment, anyways the whole confusion thing is taken too far, if u do flat bench one week then do a different chest exercise every week for 4 weeks and it isnt strenghtening any bench weak points if u come back to the bench and are at the same strength level u were at b4 ull b at the same muscle mass u were at b4

u can change the means by which the stress is placed on ur body like doing high reps ten switchin to low reps but the exercise shpould be the same for u to ultimately be stronger at it
 

homonunculus

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Brent D. said:
To all experienced in weight training,

I have an interesting question that begs for the personal experience of others.

Should a person consistently change specific exercises for each major muscle group or stick to very specific fundamental exercises to achieve the greatest overall strength gains? The fastest strength gains are what I am looking for.

Please note what works for you and why you think it works.

Thanks!

Brent D.

I'll bring us around to the original question by answering another one: what is meant by "strength?" If this is the 1RM for a particular exercise (e.g., bench press) I think, simply for neural adaptation reasons that it is wise to base a strength training program around this. This is not to say that other exercises, as Paul B. mentions, should not be added to optimize strength gain. Also, exercises targeting weak muscles in a kinetic chain make sense (simple example: person who noticably sticks on the bench near lock-out can often use more tricep pressing strength AND mass).

Take 2 twins, 1 who only flat benches (~5 sets of 5 reps after warmup), the other does a variety of free bar, dumbell, leverage presses, etc. in the 5 - 15 rep range, mixing it up as a BB'er would, prefatiguing the pecs and focusing on training the chest rather than just moving max loads with strict form. I would be willing to bet that after 1 year of training this way, all other things being equal, the flat bencher would show the greatest gains on the bench (increase 1RM). It wouldn't surprise me if the other twin, barring overtraining, had a better developed chest (albeit only slightly), but was not as strong on the flat bench.

As to whether the 2nd twin developed more muscle might depend partly upon the biomechanics of the twins (assuming same skeletal structure and joint mechanics). If maximizing bench strength, given their structure, required a narrower grip, elbows in very tight, "triceps bencher"-style lift, the 1st twin (bench press only) might have had lesser pec stimulation (pecs not the limiting muscle group during the lift) than the 2nd twin who used more isolation exercises and lifted to tax the pecs (minor and major).

-Randy
 

Paul Bunyan

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Here is the logic behind changing max effort exercises weekly. I am what is considered an advanced lifter. Because of my high level of training experience I adapt to exercises every quickly. Someone with less training experience would only need to rotate exercises every 3-5 wks.

Try to follow me because I have a tendency to ramble and jump around alot. LOL.

An advanced lifters CNS will adapt very quickly to a given exercise. To determine how often you rotate exercises you need to do them until you either can't break a PR or you go backwards. Whatever number of weeks that ends up being, subtract 1wk and then rotate exercises that often.

For the exercises I list in the previous post, there are variations of each. They mostly involve changing the width of your grip. As you can see, there are many opportunities for PR's.

Ok, max effort work for the bench is always followed by tricep work, then lats, delts and upper back work. Tricep work is heavy on this day.

Lat, delt and upper back work is always done to increase hypertrophy. This means higher reps.

These workouts last for 1hr or less. No fucking around. Get in, do it, and go eat.

More to follow.

PB
 

drgoodbody

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Paul B - that approach is similar to what Doggcrapp advocates, using a given excercise until you no longer can either increase weight or weight + reps from one week to the next (I usually give myself 2 workouts and then change if I can up the weight or weight/rep combo). At that point, change to another exercise for that muscle group.

This is what I've been doing for the past few months, and I think it works well. Nothing stays fresh forever and keeps giving you gains, but with this approach, when you eventually rotate back around to the same exercise you will definitely see an improvement in poundages.

JMHO,

DrG
 

Paul Bunyan

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Changing your routine is always a good thing whether you BB or PL. Remember, it's pretty tough to overtrain a muscle, it's your central nervous system that's easily overtrained.

PB
 

JETHRO TULL

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BRAVO.........

I SWITCH TO HEAVY HIGH REPS AFTER I GET HIT A STANDSTILL AND I GET GOOD GROWTH FROM THAT AS YOU DO. I DON'T DO A BUNCH OF EXERCISES EITHER.........I JUST PICK A COUPLE OF BASIC ONES AND WORK THE HELL OUT OF THEM.


THE ORIGINAL QUESTION: I LIKE TO SWITCH THINGS SOME ONE BASIC AND ONE 'FLUFF' EXERSIZE FOR REPS. THIS KEEPS ME INTERESTED AND I GET SOME GOOD PUMPS AGAIN. THAT IS WHY I THINK IT WORKS.:)
 

gravityfighter

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Decline Dumbell Presses

I read a study that was done and Decline Dumbell presses fires more muscle fibers than any other movement for chest....inclines are my personal favorite...do incline fly's till exhaustion then go right into presses till exhaustion...3 sets you'll be pumped!
 

Mr_Magoo

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Brent D. said:
To all experienced in weight training,

I have an interesting question that begs for the personal experience of others.

Should a person consistently change specific exercises for each major muscle group or stick to very specific fundamental exercises to achieve the greatest overall strength gains? The fastest strength gains are what I am looking for.

Please note what works for you and why you think it works.

Thanks!

Brent D.

for this ibelieve one should look at the westside method of liftin where theydo exercises that correct weak points in a certain exercise to get strongest like good mornings,strong hamstrings, triceps for their big three lifts. but the lifts areverysimilar tothe big three meaning if u want a bigger bench you should bench for thegreasing the grooveeffectone getsfrom repetition but you also gotta hit closegrip benches and stuff of that variety to ultimately bestronger on the bench , the close grip aint the flat bench butit is verysimilar to it
 

Mr_Magoo

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Paul Bunyan said:
Here is the logic behind changing max effort exercises weekly. I am what is considered an advanced lifter. Because of my high level of training experience I adapt to exercises every quickly. Someone with less training experience would only need to rotate exercises every 3-5 wks.

Try to follow me because I have a tendency to ramble and jump around alot. LOL.

An advanced lifters CNS will adapt very quickly to a given exercise. To determine how often you rotate exercises you need to do them until you either can't break a PR or you go backwards. Whatever number of weeks that ends up being, subtract 1wk and then rotate exercises that often.

For the exercises I list in the previous post, there are variations of each. They mostly involve changing the width of your grip. As you can see, there are many opportunities for PR's.

Ok, max effort work for the bench is always followed by tricep work, then lats, delts and upper back work. Tricep work is heavy on this day.

Lat, delt and upper back work is always done to increase hypertrophy. This means higher reps.

These workouts last for 1hr or less. No fucking around. Get in, do it, and go eat.

More to follow.

PB
i cthat Paul B hasanswered already andmore thoroughly then i did, basically if ur stuck at 295 on bench and u do exercisses that improve ur weak pointsinthe lift and thne moveup to 315 all the muscles that are used in benching arenow handling a greater load and will become bigger, but togetthese muscles to grow u had to fix weak points, but you also gotta do the main lifts tobecome efficient inthem like westside does with speed days
 

raybravo

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Re: Re: Muscle confusion

homonunculus said:



Take 2 twins, 1 who only flat benches (~5 sets of 5 reps after warmup), the other does a variety of free bar, dumbell, leverage presses, etc. in the 5 - 15 rep range, mixing it up as a BB'er would, prefatiguing the pecs and focusing on training the chest rather than just moving max loads with strict form. I would be willing to bet that after 1 year of training this way, all other things being equal, the flat bencher would show the greatest gains on the bench (increase 1RM). It wouldn't surprise me if the other twin, barring overtraining, had a better developed chest (albeit only slightly), but was not as strong on the flat bench.

As to whether the 2nd twin developed more muscle might depend partly upon the biomechanics of the twins (assuming same skeletal structure and joint mechanics). If maximizing bench strength, given their structure, required a narrower grip, elbows in very tight, "triceps bencher"-style lift, the 1st twin (bench press only) might have had lesser pec stimulation (pecs not the limiting muscle group during the lift) than the 2nd twin who used more isolation exercises and lifted to tax the pecs (minor and major).

-Randy
i think the second twin would be developing more muscle in this case would be just a demonstration of the fact that growth is a matter of how much u lift in a net amount of time , if both the twins , lifted equal amount of weight , that is the first twin lifting say XXX pounds in say 20 mins only doing his bench press , and the other twin lifted the same XXX pounds doing all his other movements for the chest , then i dont see any reason both should not end up with the same muscle mass .
i think its all about how much u can lift in a given amount of time , and if ure beating that every workout , then ure bound to grow , period .
 

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