Ok big weight = big muscles right??? Jay Cutler

TooPowerful4u · Jun 20, 2005

How is it that he goes so light, yet has such huge muscles? I thought it takes big weight to build big muscles? What REALLY gets me is how he prioritizes FLYs in his chest workout, and uses presses sparingly (and light weight at that) yet he has a huge chest. Ok i know there acceptions, i felt like starting this topic and getting some insight and opinions and info goin so lets hear it. . . what r ur thoughts on this?

Big Ed · Jun 20, 2005

I use to work out with a top 5 pro and he was strong when he wanted to be but most of the time pushed about 80%. For example he would squat 450 for 8 reps when i know he could squat 550 for 8 if he wanted to. I know this sounds like alot of weight but there are alot of guys much smaller than him who use simmilar weights. Like myself (sigh).... I also think maybe Jay once trainied balls out and now more or less can maintain or grow slow with out injury training light.

bigdho · Jun 20, 2005

I seen him at the Arnold this year and it doesnt suprise me hes light, he has a small bone structure and joints and is very short I dont think a person of his size would need to weigh much to look huge. He does look awasome and I agree his chest is crazy. Thats funny he uses flys as his main movement because I was just having the same discusion with another bro about him useing flys as his main movement. I can kinda understand because its really easy to put a lot of the load in your tris on a press, with a fly its all chest. now that I think about it the thing that fails on me first when I press in my tris with my chest still feeling strong so I can see where one would go the route Cutler did with that.

TooPowerful4u · Jun 20, 2005

bigdho said:
I seen him at the Arnold this year and it doesnt suprise me hes light, he has a small bone structure and joints and is very short I dont think a person of his size would need to weigh much to look huge. He does look awasome and I agree his chest is crazy. Thats funny he uses flys as his main movement because I was just having the same discusion with another bro about him useing flys as his main movement. I can kinda understand because its really easy to put a lot of the load in your tris on a press, with a fly its all chest. now that I think about it the thing that fails on me first when I press in my tris with my chest still feeling strong so I can see where one would go the route Cutler did with that.

well his outlook on it is this.... he states anyone with a wide clavicle will have a hard time filling in your chest with presses, where as its easier to fill it in with narrow shoulders. makes sense cause you see a lot of narrow guys with good chests, and less so wide guys. I would think you could just take a wider grip than the narrow guys and get the same effect though. Cutler does 1 fly movement, then a press, then 2 fly, then a press. Maybe hes goin really heavy on the Fly's who knows. Point is it works for him, and bb is all about discovering what works for YOU through trial and error, advice and tips help along the way, u incorporate them here and there, sometimes they work out well, sometimes they dont. You try it and see if it fits. Longer you train the better you get to know your body, better you learn to feel the muscles, and the more you find through trial n error what works for you.

Vanilla-Gorilla · Jun 20, 2005

In the past when I would train chest, I used to stick to lots of presses and then end the workout with some flyes. Sure I got stronger, but my pecs didn't grow accordingly. I hooked up with a new training partner about a year ago and he loves flyes. Which at first I didn't like the idea of that. My ego was to far ahead of me and I couldn't even think about putting flyes first or second in my chest routine. But eventually it sank in. And man what a difference it makes.

Normally I will start off with a pressing movement then go to a flye, then another press then a fly, pec deck, or crossovers. Sometimes, I will start on the pec deck and then go to db presses. This type of chest routine is hard to get used to at first, mostly ego, but if you can stick with it, it makes a world of difference. Least it did for me. My chest is now much fuller and my inner chest is actually up to par. That used to be a problem area for me in the past. I am not saying there is anything wrong with going from press to press, but adding some flyes in between doesn't hurt. Its just a good change up. This type of chest training works especially well for bodybuilders that have wide shoulder structures (clavicles) which me and my training partner both have and of course as you know, Jay as well.

One of my favorite routines that I do, and this hits the chest all over with a variety of equipment:

Incline db press
Incline flyes
Hammer strength wide chest
Cable crossovers supersetted w/
machine presses

or

Flat db presses
Flat flyes
Incline Hammer stength
Pec dec

Those are just two examples I do and I love the pump. Its great to go from pressing, to stretching to pressing to strecthing. Try it.

TooPowerful4u · Jun 20, 2005

I thought the principals were to hit PRIMARILY 2b fibers (potential for 100% increase in size) which have the most potential for growth and secondarily the 2a fibers which have a 30% potential for growth. In order to hit 2b fibers you need to place maximal load on the muscle. How can you do that if you already have worn out some of the muscles ATP and stored glycogen and damaged some of the fibers? You wont lift YOUR maximal weight on presses, and you wont be able to place YOUR personal maximal load on the muscle. Wouldnt it make sense to hit your 2b's first with maximal load with presses, then work towards the still not completly fatigued 2a fibers after that?

dirkmoneyshot · Jun 20, 2005

When i get back to seriously training an a week or two, i'm going to with lots of flys.

i've Always been of the belief use maximal weights (presses) at the outset of your workout----

You know whats happened. Im strong as hell, but my pecs look worse then kids using 1/3 the weight i use.

Will let everyone know how the change works.

Conan21 · Jun 20, 2005

in actuality

There is no difference in stimuation between an isolation than a compound. you don't stimulate muscles any better by using compound exercises.

However,compounds are usually better for the reason you stated TP4U, you can't hit those high threshold Motor Units with isolation exercises because you usually have to train with lighter weights and higher rep ranges. Example. you can't really Hit Heavy super heavy weights on a leg extension or side lateral.

but chest isolation exercises can be very effective. You can go pretty damn heavy on some of those machine flys where you let ur chest stretch and where the hands come together out in front of you. I remember listening to an interview by L. Simmons from west side where he recommended this for chest hypertrophy. He recomended using the chest fly machine and also using some band tension attached to the machine. would be pretty neat to give a try.

I lift at home and don't have the proper machine or have the bands but would be neat to experiment with.

bigbadasian · Jun 20, 2005

Reply

|--[\\\]>-------- What do you consider light? on B4O he's doing chest and he's doing inclines with 4 plates on a side i believe. That's pretty heavy if you ask me. I am with Jay on this one: i think flys are the best exercise for chest IMO. In my chest w/o's i usually end up doing more fly exercises than pressing ones. Doing flys really focuses on my chest, im not real good with body mechanics, but to me, presses involve more shoulders than flys, to me it feels that way.

Adrenaline Rush · Jun 20, 2005

it seems to me that Jay would grow on any routine he did...im sure he tries to avoid as much injury as possible, thus not going super heavy all the time...
everytime i wonder about isolatation exercises and hi volume i think about what would build more muscle--- 1000 perfect form pushups or inclining 315 for reps....

huge-inc · Jun 20, 2005

Flys

Flys are king...I don't flat bench anymore and my chest is my best body part...I do flat & incline flys...I have helped several people with there chest developement....they say they feel flat bench more in there shoulders...and they would have large front delts and small chest...skip flat bench...do flys...chest starts growing

JonnyO · Jun 20, 2005

Jay also states in his video he doesnt go all too heavy so he can avoid injury. And I think so far in his career he has been injury free. I think he has the genetics to be very. very strong. Looks to have pretty thick joints to me. But he trains smart and with his mind and its taken him pretty far. I think he goes up to 405 on inlcine in his video with his wife spotting him and does it pretty easily, so the strength is there.

I have been having problems filling in my chest as well and am looking for ways to add thickness and inner thickness. I am a big inline presser, love them. I have began adding in dumbell pullovers and weighted dips to try to add thickness. I do have wide shoulders and back so makes my chest not stick out like I'd like it to. I am do db flys but looks like I will be prioritising them from now on. I am always open to new rouitines and exercises and change.

TooPowerful4u · Jun 21, 2005

Honestly my chest has grown the most it ever has recently. The only thing i did was stick to leading off my workouts with strict heavy smith machine inclines (either a steep incline or low incline alternating) and used VERY strict form control the negative, big stretch, elbows out, bring bar to lower collar bone, explode to just short of lockout then back down. I go heavy and hard with lots of rest between sets, after that, pump up the chest with lots of fly's and cables DONE.

gooey · Jun 21, 2005

volume

JonnyO said:
Jay also states in his video he doesnt go all too heavy so he can avoid injury. And I think so far in his career he has been injury free. I think he has the genetics to be very. very strong. Looks to have pretty thick joints to me. But he trains smart and with his mind and its taken him pretty far. I think he goes up to 405 on inlcine in his video with his wife spotting him and does it pretty easily, so the strength is there.

I have been having problems filling in my chest as well and am looking for ways to add thickness and inner thickness. I am a big inline presser, love them. I have began adding in dumbell pullovers and weighted dips to try to add thickness. I do have wide shoulders and back so makes my chest not stick out like I'd like it to. I am do db flys but looks like I will be prioritising them from now on. I am always open to new rouitines and exercises and change.

jay does a lot of volume and a lot of weight at high volume. I train much like he does. Big weights usually mean big muscles but that is not always true. look at powerlifters, they are not always big and they can move some serious weight. IMO muscle is broken down by tension x duration u pick a weight that puts much tension on muscle and move it as many times as u can or want to. Jay may not do on DVD a 585 incline but he does a 405 incline, then I think up to 145 lbs dumbbell incline. Close to the same angle. Thats a lot of work for the upper chest. back to back movements. Levrone does a heavy flat bench, incline then a seated flex chest press then some machine flys of M3. Less volume but more weight. Ronnie does 3 press movements in his lastest vid, but not that impressive amount of weight but heavy. We all can respond to different weight stimulus. Just need to find out which worx best with u and what u enjoy the most. I train a mix between Cutler, levrone, and priest. High volume but as heavy as I can do it.
gooey

TooPowerful4u · Jun 21, 2005

I dont lift one style. I have a different style each bodypart.

Chest i press so heavy and hard on the first set to ABSOLUTE failure for 4 sets with about 4-5min rest between sets so i can lift maximal weight (4-8 rep range, sometimes as high as 12 but VERY strict reps) that i cant approach lifting a heavy weight for a second pressing exercise. If i do do a second pressing exercise somewhere in my workout its high reps to attain a huge pump.

Back i absolutly LOVE to barbell row as heavy as possible down to as low as 4-6 reps and as soon as i fail i go to failure on 3/4 deads with immediatly with the same weight. I use a lot of variation with back though so its always different.

Arms i have no style.

Shoulders i love to lead with chest side DB laterals, then a heavy press, heavy chest wide grip upright rows, then finnish strict laterals.

Legs im pretty consistently the same except i change the rep range a lot. I almost always alternate a squat/leg press/extension workout with front squat/smith squat/extension workout. Hams i always warm up with curls then do body curls til theyr dead. Then stiffys and finnish up with peak contraction curls.

Always willing to change it up and give something new a try though. If i come across a reading of something good, i might give it a shot.

LATS · Jun 21, 2005

jay is amazingly strong.. i know what you are saying toopowerful, but, we have all seen him do 4 plates a side for a good amount of reps on vidoe.. he also, does 140 pound shoulder dumbell presses... he is strong but, i think he does go lighter on certain movements to avoid injury like stated above.. he does a lot of volume so his workload in numbers is very high.. plus.. it might be heavy fro him.. some exercises i am not strong on.. but, they are working my best bodyparts.. heavy is heavy.. so to speak lol..

so who really knows.. he is no ronnie in the strength department but, he is pretty strong.

MassMachine · Jun 21, 2005

For pure Hypertrophy people need to do a variety of movements and use a higher rep range. We get to caught up in the ego based movements. Strength is not enough to give you maximum growth. Instead of 3 movements of 3-4 sets how about 9-12 movements for a set each training the muscle on different planes.
Lying cable flyes work excellent for chest growth. Sliding push ups are a great finisher. Get 2 rags or towles and a hard wood floor or linoluim and get in push up postion. As you push up slide your hands together as you push up slide them apart.
There are so many better movements than the standard pushing movements.
Not to say they should be eliminated.

MM

MassMachine · Jun 21, 2005

Another thing i forgot to mention is pre exhuasting the pecs with isolation movements before pressing movements.
Haney said your muscles do not know the difference from 100lbs or 400lbs.
Stimulate do not Annilate.

MM

jerrywear · Jun 21, 2005

its all diferent,i was so stuburn tu change my heavy lifting.i was going nuts liftin realyy heavy.but after few injuries i learned my something diferent.
now i still go really have but i mix exercises all around,do from heavy to lot of reps,and on and on.
let say chest incline i go up to 475 for 6 reps and go down right away to 225 and just know with perfect form and a lot of reps.
close grip press i went up to 475lb.and some members from this board saw me do it.
i dont like doing back,caz i can lift a lot.let say bent over rows i can go up to 6 plates on the side for reps,but now i just go up to 5 and do for 8 -10 reps with very good form.
lateral raises i can go up to 90lb and gop for 8 reps,but not anymore.i go lighter and with much better form.
i mean with time we learn so much about our bodys,whats working and whats not.for one person heavy is the way to go,for others lighter but more perfect reps.
so i am not imprest with any pro BB training,but actualy with only Ronnies lifting.

nozeryder · Jun 21, 2005

Great thread guys. I'm 34 and have had my share of injuries due to heavy lifts at the gym. Now I check my ego at the door and train mostly for intensity at roughly 80% of my max. That fly routine sounds interesting, I'm also gonna give it a try.