Same calories, change in macros = change in physique?

[NEMSZ]

So as the title says, I’m wondering if eating the same calories but changing macros around can drastically change a physique?

Reason I ask is because there have been several debates on Calories in vs Calories out and that’s what matters on a cut and someone can basically get just as ripped eating a calorie deficit of ice cream as they can with chicken breast... Obviously importance placed on protein for muscle retention and in some cases even building muscle while getting leaner..

I’m wondering this for my case because I was going to start a drastic diet (PSMF) and try to get as shredded as possible then grow lean, but then I thought, what’s the hurry? I used to never measure my food and a couple weeks back I started to with a calculator and I found out after a couple days for trial that I maintain 180lbs @ 3k calories with my activity level but to my surprise I was only getting about 100-120g protein and the rest was carbs and fats...

So my goal at the end of the day is to be 180lbs like I am now but instead of around 12-13% bodyfat id really like to be around 8%...

So for the past week or so I’ve just switched around the macros and done

250g protein
250g-300g carbs
100g fats

I know it’s too soon to tell but thinking about continuing this trend for a couple months, really focusing on protein intake and clean foods (I don’t really eat junk but just cut out processed sugars and stuff a week ago.) and see if it’s possible to change my physique without changing calories?

Any input is appreciated guys, thanks in advance..

 

[Gunsmith]

I can definitely get leaner faster with less carbs and more protein.
My stomach also doesn't get destended at all when eating lower carbs.

If calories were all that mattered then why don't more people eat junk during their prep just as long as they keep In a calorie deficit.??
I know some guys do allow some shit in their plan but they rarely look better on stage than the guys that are very strict

 

[thethinker48]

There's a lot of individual variability when it comes to macro breakdown for people

Variability in insulin sensitivity, amount of muscle, and activity level all can play a role in carb metabolism (so can drugs).

Some folks are better responders to fats; I'm personally fuller and stronger on lower carbs and higher fats. If I tried to load up on carbs like a pre show protocol; I wouldn't gain nearly the amount of fullness I would from eating a fatty steak with potatoes. Goes against all logic for a lot of people I know, but highly highly individual

This is just my opinion; so take it for what it's worth. I personally don't understand why people do PMSF type of dieting, unless they are on a calendar timeline to get into shape, or got so horribly out of shape from their baseline. The loss in strength, and overall well being wouldn't be worth it for me personally.

I would slowly diet down, and hold a level of leanness to establish a set point; this might not be applicable to competitors who are going up and down for rapid changes, but for most people who don't compete, it'll allow you to maintain your strength, feel good, and maintain it FAR easier.

 

[NEMSZ]

I can definitely get leaner faster with less carbs and more protein.
My stomach also doesn't get destended at all when eating lower carbs.

If calories were all that mattered then why don't more people eat junk during their prep just as long as they keep In a calorie deficit.??
I know some guys do allow some shit in their plan but they rarely look better on stage than the guys that are very strict

Completely agree, but I do see people making that calories in vs calories out argument.. I say the same thing, then why don’t people just focus on protein and then eat all the ice cream and French fries they want as long as they’re in a deficit? Lol

There's a lot of individual variability when it comes to macro breakdown for people

Variability in insulin sensitivity, amount of muscle, and activity level all can play a role in carb metabolism (so can drugs).

Some folks are better responders to fats; I'm personally fuller and stronger on lower carbs and higher fats. If I tried to load up on carbs like a pre show protocol; I wouldn't gain nearly the amount of fullness I would from eating a fatty steak with potatoes. Goes against all logic for a lot of people I know, but highly highly individual

This is just my opinion; so take it for what it's worth. I personally don't understand why people do PMSF type of dieting, unless they are on a calendar timeline to get into shape, or got so horribly out of shape from their baseline. The loss in strength, and overall well being wouldn't be worth it for me personally.

I would slowly diet down, and hold a level of leanness to establish a set point; this might not be applicable to competitors who are going up and down for rapid changes, but for most people who don't compete, it'll allow you to maintain your strength, feel good, and maintain it FAR easier.

I agree with all the variables and I’m not really asking exactly for the macros I laid out, I know it’s individual and I’ll have to play with that on my own as I go along, but I do very well with pretty much all foods, the only thing that bothers my stomach and makes me feel bloated are regular potatoes, oatmeal and whey based shakes..

I guess I’m looking for more the general answer of the possibility of changing my physique, building some muscle and losing fat at the same time while keeping the same weight and calories/expenditure (give or take a bit)? Now that I’m primarily focused on more than doubling my protein intake etc..

 

[TheOtherOne55]

I agree with TheThinker here.

Completely individual. And NEMZ, i actually just did this when I kinda got stuck on a fat loss plateau....
I had around 250 carbs in my diet, kept cals the same and went to an almost KETO type setup and fat loss got moving again. I lose fat fast and tend to NEED to go low carb, but i also flatten out like a pancake. Flatness = losing fatness though haha. So I just keep pushing. I did this for 3 or so straight weeks and then dropped cals a little more, but rotated carbs up. I think you're just going to have to see what works best for you.

I'm also going to echo what Thinker said, i just can't do this PSMF thing anymore. I did it twice the past 16 months and both times the end result was not visually what I wanted. Then in March, i start a slow cut and WHAM, all of the sudden i look great. Yeah, it takes longer but I end up looking fuller and visually its just much mucchhhh better. The problem with guys who start running PSMF and DNP a lot is they end up using all their tricks way too early. They are 16% bodyfat....PSMF and DNP their way down to 9 and then it stops works and they say, "op, guess I'm done." They are all out of tools in their toolbag and kinda don't know where to go from there. EVEN if they don't look great. I'd rather diet hard....then add cardio....then clen and EC it up....keep lowering cals and adjusting cardio...t3 maybe. And maybe once you are down at 8% after all that, and if you're still dead set on PSMF and DNP...use it then to get to 6....don't use that shit at 16%. What a waste. This is just what I learned in my past 2 years of mini dieting and trying to hack my way down to looking great. A regular old BB precontest diet had me looking my best.

 

[USMuscle9403]

There's a lot of individual variability when it comes to macro breakdown for people

Variability in insulin sensitivity, amount of muscle, and activity level all can play a role in carb metabolism (so can drugs).

Some folks are better responders to fats; I'm personally fuller and stronger on lower carbs and higher fats. If I tried to load up on carbs like a pre show protocol; I wouldn't gain nearly the amount of fullness I would from eating a fatty steak with potatoes. Goes against all logic for a lot of people I know, but highly highly individual

This is just my opinion; so take it for what it's worth. I personally don't understand why people do PMSF type of dieting, unless they are on a calendar timeline to get into shape, or got so horribly out of shape from their baseline. The loss in strength, and overall well being wouldn't be worth it for me personally.

I would slowly diet down, and hold a level of leanness to establish a set point; this might not be applicable to competitors who are going up and down for rapid changes, but for most people who don't compete, it'll allow you to maintain your strength, feel good, and maintain it FAR easier.

Good post but I'll tell you why I PERSONALLY prefer more rapid dieting.

Instant gratification - Ok, who doesn't like fast results? You're dropping water rapidly from the get go and going straight to body fat. The changes are almost daily. That's good motivation for a lot of people and gives them the drive to continue until their next refeed or free meal. You tell someone they need to be strict for months, it can fuck with their head. A PSMF is typically two to four weeks. Add some low dose DNP, ECY and whatever else you'd like and you can lose a legitimate half pound of body fat or more per day.

Idiot Proof - The deficit is so substantial that there's little guesswork involved. Even if you fuck up a little, you're still going to make some type of progress and still very rapidly.

That's just a couple things, but of course there's plenty of bad, as well...

Loss of muscle - This is going to be highly individual. Even when I was natural, I could be on very low calories for extended periods of time and not lose muscle; my strength would be back in a week. This obviously isn't the case for some guys. But I feel that most, if they're keeping up with their protein intake and taking enough gear to hold onto muscle, most don't have a whole lot to worry about. Sure, you're going to lose strength, pressing and leg strength are first to go for me, but it comes back very quickly.

Binging - Diets like this are not a great idea for those with eating disorders. And if you don't have one already, following a diet like this is an amazingly effective way to acquire one. That's not to scare anyone away, just the reality of it. If you can handle the diet without going nuts, do it. If you can't, then don't. Only one way for most to find out. You're going to have to just know yourself on this one.

Mood swings, lethargy, etc. - Whatever you experience on a normal deficit will obviously be multiplied on this. If you're one who easily loses sexual function, you're probably not gonna fuck the old lady much when running this. That's my experience, anyway. Then you have the lack of sleep, which is probably the worst side effect and can obviously trickle into other parts of your life with lethargy and just being a fuckin prick.

There's tons more, but it's a type of diet that really is more suited for a certain kind of person. Again, binge eaters beware (looks who's talking), but there's something to be said for getting the same or better results in half the time. Only you can decide if it's something you'd ever want to try. If you have any second guesses at all, I'd advise you to stick with what you know and are comfortable with.

 

[qbkilla]

Good posts on dieting slow vs fast.

Would 3lbs a week goal be considered slow or fast?

Imo toggling calories between pro carb and fat can make a small difference. calorie timing too. I think 0 carbs can be counterproductive to muscle retention because you should have some around your workout always. The op numbers look pretty optimal. If fat loss slows and you dont want to drop total calories change some carbs to protein or fat.

 

[IronLion2]

The system in which we measure calorie intake was never meant to be a stand alone equation, so absolutely yes, it is literally the largest bastardization in fitness

 

[pheenix]

When i started tracking macros it really made a dif for me. I only eat carbs ( less then 100g) pre or post training. Usually just COR or coca kripies drizzle honey, almond milk 1 cup 1 1/2 cups cocao krispies, 50g gram whey isolate I recently lowered fat intake as well, so far so good. Weekends i reverse diet. Im not a BBer, but life long staying in top shape for work.

 

[thethinker48]

Good post but I'll tell you why I PERSONALLY prefer more rapid dieting.

Instant gratification - Ok, who doesn't like fast results? You're dropping water rapidly from the get go and going straight to body fat. The changes are almost daily. That's good motivation for a lot of people and gives them the drive to continue until their next refeed or free meal. You tell someone they need to be strict for months, it can fuck with their head. A PSMF is typically two to four weeks. Add some low dose DNP, ECY and whatever else you'd like and you can lose a legitimate half pound of body fat or more per day.

Idiot Proof - The deficit is so substantial that there's little guesswork involved. Even if you fuck up a little, you're still going to make some type of progress and still very rapidly.

That's just a couple things, but of course there's plenty of bad, as well...

Loss of muscle - This is going to be highly individual. Even when I was natural, I could be on very low calories for extended periods of time and not lose muscle; my strength would be back in a week. This obviously isn't the case for some guys. But I feel that most, if they're keeping up with their protein intake and taking enough gear to hold onto muscle, most don't have a whole lot to worry about. Sure, you're going to lose strength, pressing and leg strength are first to go for me, but it comes back very quickly.

Binging - Diets like this are not a great idea for those with eating disorders. And if you don't have one already, following a diet like this is an amazingly effective way to acquire one. That's not to scare anyone away, just the reality of it. If you can handle the diet without going nuts, do it. If you can't, then don't. Only one way for most to find out. You're going to have to just know yourself on this one.

Mood swings, lethargy, etc. - Whatever you experience on a normal deficit will obviously be multiplied on this. If you're one who easily loses sexual function, you're probably not gonna fuck the old lady much when running this. That's my experience, anyway. Then you have the lack of sleep, which is probably the worst side effect and can obviously trickle into other parts of your life with lethargy and just being a fuckin prick.

There's tons more, but it's a type of diet that really is more suited for a certain kind of person. Again, binge eaters beware (looks who's talking), but there's something to be said for getting the same or better results in half the time. Only you can decide if it's something you'd ever want to try. If you have any second guesses at all, I'd advise you to stick with what you know and are comfortable with.

Yeah I can see that, it's a superpower in itself to maintain strength and intensity on low calories

Tbh the diet, the sleep, the recovery; everything comes back to training for me. If I can't train hard and heavy, then I probably wouldn't put effort in other areas at all. Bodybuilding is a boring, repetitive endeavor; the only thing that makes it sufferable is the 1 hr spent in the gym

My training would suffer massively on a high protein trace carb+fat diet, I know some guys can do it (while also taking tren) and function fine...goddamn aliens to me

17 different routes to the same destination

 

[NEMSZ]

Good post but I'll tell you why I PERSONALLY prefer more rapid dieting.

Instant gratification - Ok, who doesn't like fast results? You're dropping water rapidly from the get go and going straight to body fat. The changes are almost daily. That's good motivation for a lot of people and gives them the drive to continue until their next refeed or free meal. You tell someone they need to be strict for months, it can fuck with their head. A PSMF is typically two to four weeks. Add some low dose DNP, ECY and whatever else you'd like and you can lose a legitimate half pound of body fat or more per day.

Idiot Proof - The deficit is so substantial that there's little guesswork involved. Even if you fuck up a little, you're still going to make some type of progress and still very rapidly.

That's just a couple things, but of course there's plenty of bad, as well...

Loss of muscle - This is going to be highly individual. Even when I was natural, I could be on very low calories for extended periods of time and not lose muscle; my strength would be back in a week. This obviously isn't the case for some guys. But I feel that most, if they're keeping up with their protein intake and taking enough gear to hold onto muscle, most don't have a whole lot to worry about. Sure, you're going to lose strength, pressing and leg strength are first to go for me, but it comes back very quickly.

Binging - Diets like this are not a great idea for those with eating disorders. And if you don't have one already, following a diet like this is an amazingly effective way to acquire one. That's not to scare anyone away, just the reality of it. If you can handle the diet without going nuts, do it. If you can't, then don't. Only one way for most to find out. You're going to have to just know yourself on this one.

Mood swings, lethargy, etc. - Whatever you experience on a normal deficit will obviously be multiplied on this. If you're one who easily loses sexual function, you're probably not gonna fuck the old lady much when running this. That's my experience, anyway. Then you have the lack of sleep, which is probably the worst side effect and can obviously trickle into other parts of your life with lethargy and just being a fuckin prick.

There's tons more, but it's a type of diet that really is more suited for a certain kind of person. Again, binge eaters beware (looks who's talking), but there's something to be said for getting the same or better results in half the time. Only you can decide if it's something you'd ever want to try. If you have any second guesses at all, I'd advise you to stick with what you know and are comfortable with.

Thanks for everyone’s input on this...

USMuscle, you make some really great points and I can definitely relate to some;

Instant Gratification; that’s exactly what I want, unfortunately lmao I want to be shredded tomorrow and at my goal the next day lol.. Of course exaggerating a bit but that was the whole thought behind my PSMF, buuuuuuuuut I also know myself and I HATE being hungry, there’s a big difference between being in a 300-500 calorie deficit and slowly get lean and an 1800 calorie deficit and basically starve and be in a shitty mood and feel like shit.. I tried to reason with myself and thought “It’s only 3 weeks MAX and then evaluate” but I honestly didn’t even look forward to starting and in my experience that’s a recipe for starting and quitting/binging in 3 days lmao...

After all, this is my first time (the past few weeks) that I can remember tracking all my calories and macros and seeing that I’m now hitting my protein goal of 250g and I was pretty off before, I feel like maybe with a slight deficit of around 300 calories, I can actually build some more muscle and get lean at the same time, though over a couple months instead of doing “extremes”.. I’m going to keep those macros and adjust as I go, and see how I look in a couple months..

Though no one has really answered the question of “same calories, different macros, different physique?” Lol I’m just going to try the above unless someone else has more input on that specifically and the goal at hand? Lol

 

[pheenix]

When i cut out the beef and just did cod, tuna, whey isolate shakes, egg whites, some almond butter, although i was basically about the same, maybe like 250 deficit .. I felt tight and lean, more vascular, etc
was doing trt, mast, then added 150mgs tren hex, felt great. less then 100 g carbs only PW I was doing 200g p less then 100g c and low fats. Park training, so no gym. Alot of water. On weekend reverse it but not sloppy Just drop fat, add like 250g carbs drop P to about 150g I looked pretty good for my own self. JMO

 

[Cv215]

Though no one has really answered the question of “same calories, different macros, different physique?” Lol I’m just going to try the above unless someone else has more input on that specifically and the goal at hand? Lol

I would imagine the physique is definitely going to vary, especially the leaner you get. Its why contest prep can get so tricky the last week or so. It could also effect the time it takes to get to desired physique. Again, everyone is going to respond differently to certain macros which is why theres so much experimentation involved, knowing your body, and possibly even having a good coach.. But mainly knowing your body.

I hate that iifym thing. Clean food is ALWAYS going to give you a better physique than garbage. Regardless of whether the "calories and macros are the same. There's just no substition. If i only had so many calories to work with i would want it to be only clean food. It's one thing to make a small space for ice cream or whatever but they'll never replace nutrient dense foods.

 

[Cracker69]

I think if you just kind of sit back and look at the bigger picture, total calories whether cutting or bulking is the most important factor. When you change macros, by lets say increasing the content of your diet from 30% protein to 55% protein, even though on paper the total calories may be the same, you essentially decreased total calories absorbed since the diet induced thermogenesis of protein is highest, therefore less total calories are absorbed. So you did indirectly decrease calories. And then sometimes people will say they gained muscle by increasing protein, but fail to mention that total calories also went up, which is actually the reason for the new gains. I know there is an optimal amount of protein for maintenance and gaining, and i know that whole foods will always require more energy to digest with a higher TEF/DIT, but its still boils down to total calories one way or another. Eat less shit or enjoy a bit more food but make it whole foods/higher protein, either way reduces calories directly or indirectly. It was either Robby Robinson or Vince Taylor, can't remember which one that stated the difference between his regular diet and precontest diet, was a big bowl of food, and a little bowl.lol. Maybe an oversimplification, but most of these guys weren't the sharpest tool in the shed, and I think people make this shit way more complicated than it has to be. Just my 2 cents.

 

[cm]

So as the title says, I’m wondering if eating the same calories but changing macros around can drastically change a physique?

Reason I ask is because there have been several debates on Calories in vs Calories out and that’s what matters on a cut and someone can basically get just as ripped eating a calorie deficit of ice cream as they can with chicken breast

I think if you take the approach you spoke of, increase protein, lower carbs, no sugar, no processed etc, its not if, if when you will start seeing improvements.

I have never met a successful competitor who diets calories vs calories way, (IFYM). For what its worth. Ive never coached anyone to success with it, nor would I. I would never think lousy food would be good for your health physique, or long term habits. That is just silly thinking that oreos are good for a bodybuilder, sure they are awesome, but helpful for goals, cmon'.....the average soccer mom knows that is unhealthy food, how could it get someone leaner.
understanding the debate, cheat meals, refeeds, what have you: unhealthy food, unhealthy person. period.
SO in terms of changing the macros to change the physique, yes of course. I believe when we eat food our body understands better, we are going to be more efficient.
this eat chipotle on contest prep, fasting and saving junk nutella calories, weight watcher, point system approach, that has taken over socials, esp bikini girls in college-- never seems to be relevant when you show up to a competition a couple days before, and everyone has their coolers with fish and greens. ITS Funny how I never see anyone with a subway bag.

 

[totalrecomp]

I can definitely get leaner faster with less carbs and more protein.
My stomach also doesn't get destended at all when eating lower carbs.

If calories were all that mattered then why don't more people eat junk during their prep just as long as they keep In a calorie deficit.??
I know some guys do allow some shit in their plan but they rarely look better on stage than the guys that are very strict

I do not disagree but the volume of food one gets to consume plummets when you start to add the "dirty" items in. I don't doubt it is possible to cut on crap but for me it would leave me unbearably hungry all the time. Getting to eat treats all day but still be starving IMO defeats the whole point of eating the "bad" stuff to begin with. Cheats without satisfaction.............no thanks.

 

[Bembry1990]

Guy #1 is eating way to many calories overall unless he is one big mofo already or is a high level athlete in training. If he isn’t one of the two I listed then he is probably getting fat as well as building muscle unless he isnt training correctly and in that case he is only getting fat n

Guy #2 isn’t eating enough calories to gain weight unless Guy #2 is really Girl#2. If Guy #2 will add 3-400 calories a week until he gets to the point where he is seeing that a slight increase in weight on the scale and then hold steady until he stalls again then he can find his sweet spot and not add too much to his midsection.

Hope I helped guys.

 

[b-boy]

I can definitely get leaner faster with less carbs and more protein.
My stomach also doesn't get destended at all when eating lower carbs.

If calories were all that mattered then why don't more people eat junk during their prep just as long as they keep In a calorie deficit.??

Are u really asking this?
HUNGER! .....when calories get low you can eat a higher volume of food..aka veggies instead of a Reese cup.

 

[b-boy]

I do not disagree but the volume of food one gets to consume plummets when you start to add the "dirty" items in. I don't doubt it is possible to cut on crap but for me it would leave me unbearably hungry all the time. Getting to eat treats all day but still be starving IMO defeats the whole point of eating the "bad" stuff to begin with. Cheats without satisfaction.............no thanks.

Posted my reply without reading yours first.... ^^^^^^^ EXACTLY ^^^^

 

[b-boy]

I think if you just kind of sit back and look at the bigger picture, total calories whether cutting or bulking is the most important factor. When you change macros, by lets say increasing the content of your diet from 30% protein to 55% protein, even though on paper the total calories may be the same, you essentially decreased total calories absorbed since the diet induced thermogenesis of protein is highest, therefore less total calories are absorbed. So you did indirectly decrease calories. And then sometimes people will say they gained muscle by increasing protein, but fail to mention that total calories also went up, which is actually the reason for the new gains. I know there is an optimal amount of protein for maintenance and gaining, and i know that whole foods will always require more energy to digest with a higher TEF/DIT, but its still boils down to total calories one way or another. Eat less shit or enjoy a bit more food but make it whole foods/higher protein, either way reduces calories directly or indirectly. It was either Robby Robinson or Vince Taylor, can't remember which one that stated the difference between his regular diet and precontest diet, was a big bowl of food, and a little bowl.lol. Maybe an oversimplification, but most of these guys weren't the sharpest tool in the shed, and I think people make this shit way more complicated than it has to be. Just my 2 cents.

EXCELLENT FUCKING POST! End of thread..

#knowledge