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peewee
Member
Registered: Feb 2002
Location:
Posts: 61
Short acting esters vs Long acting esters
Pro's please help.
I am very confused on this topic. I hear that long acting esters build up blood levels because they are compounding with the time release. BUT.......do they release all at the same time? I mean, if you inject 200mg on monday and it last for 5 days, is the Test being released during the whole 5 days or only on the last day?
The real reason I'm asking is that I need to know what type of test is best for muscle gain. Long acting a few times per week, or short acting (like prop) every day? Short acting will not build up the same blood levels. Will this effect muscle growth?
HELP!!!!!!
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04-11-2002 09:03 PM
LATS
Member
Registered: Jan 2002
Location:
Posts: 56
WELL, I AM NO PRO,
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04-12-2002 05:40 PM
LATS
Member
Registered: Jan 2002
Location:
Posts: 56
well, i am no pro but, ill throw my two cents in here. test is test, it all depends on it half lives. many proponents of short act test say they like to be able to calculate more precisely when the compound is in or out of their system. many also like the fact that it works right away and if side effects happen they know it will be out of their system in a timely manner. but, the down side is all thoses frickin' shots to maintain blood levels.
personally , i love prop but, am getting tired of all the shots as i get old.lol i also dont care for sust because i cant be sure when it is out of my system as it is so long acting. i now use cyp and enth because i know it is out of the system in about a week and this enables my to calculate my clomid intake and avoid a shit load of injections.
i know phil used to love sust, so he might have a different take on this. later
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04-12-2002 05:48 PM
xcelbeyond
Better than avg BB'er
Registered: Jan 2002
Location: West Coast
Posts: 335
Article from my archives on ester effectiveness
High Mg per ML Roids, What you need to know – by Iron Addict
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Not a week goes by that I don't get personal email questions from people about how to make high mg per ml gear. There are also lots of these posts on the boards so I'm taking a moment to clear a couple of things up.
1. Most hormones have a pretty low solubility in oil.
2. The primary ways to increase solubility are to
A) add solvent (BA or EA).
B) Add an ester to the hormone. The longer the ester the more hormone will fit in the oil at a certain mg per ml ratio. Conversely, the weight of the ester is also factored in the total mg per ml ratio, so while you can fit more hormone in, you are getting less actual hormone than the mg amount implies. Here are some examples:
Ester actual mg/100mg dose
test no ester 100
tren acetate 87
test prop 83
test enanth 72
test cyp 70
test undecan 63
nand phenyl 67
nand deca 64
This means that if your test cyp says 200 mgs per ml you get an actual 140 mgs of test. The rest of the weight is the weight of the ester. If that sounds like a bad deal you need to understand that test no ester is VERY insoluble in oil without going to very high mg per ml solvent concentrations.
This brings up the next point; PAIN!
Why do some shots hurt? There are two primary reasons. One, the solvent ratio is too high. Anything over about 10% starts to hurt. BA and EA are VERY inflammatory to the tissues. That’s why you want ONLY enough to help your oil hold more gear but not so much that it causes inflammation.
The second reason is that the gear crystallizes in the depot. This is precisely why water-based suspensions feel like hammer blows. The water is absorbed FAST, leaving the gear to crystallize in the tissues = PAIN. Even gear in oil can do this, here is how it works. If you use a low ester weight attached to your gear and make the mg per ml ratio SIGNIFICANTLY higher than the oil will hold on it's own, what happens is the body absorbs the solvent faster than the oil/gear and the gear falls out of the solution and crystallizes in the depot and WHAM, it hurts like hell. An optimum solution has just enough solvent to get more gear into solution than you could otherwise, but not so much that what I just stated happens. When the ratios are correct the gear holds in the solution UNTIL the whole depot is absorbed and very little or no pain is felt. Just to end this misconception once and for all IT IS NOT THE VOLUME OF THE OIL THAT CUASES THE PAIN, IT IS ONE OF THE CONDITIONS STATED ABOVE. You can shoot 5 cc's of sterile oil and never know you took a shot. It IS NOT HOW MUCH OIL YOU SHOOT! So why does everyone search for super high mg per ml ratio gear like it's the damn holy grail???
What is too high? Well the length of the ester is really what determines that but most of us here know the gear that hurts and know we know why. All tests over 250 mgs per ml hurt, and actually most of the 250 mg tests hurt too. SOOOO many people want there tren at 150-200 mgs per ml. Tren acetate should be at about what????? 75 mgs per ml. That is why all the kits are designed this way. Do you really think it's cheaper for the kit producers to add MORE oil to their kits instead of less? One other quick note. Oil is used because it SLOWS absorption. THIS IS PRECISELY WHAT YOU WANT IN A STEROI* SHOT! Less oil does not promote the steady state hormone levels achieved with more oil.
xcelbeyond
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04-12-2002 08:31 PM
xcelbeyond
Better than avg BB'er
Registered: Jan 2002
Location: West Coast
Posts: 335
Sorry Lats, you're wasting a week of Clomid!
Here's more from my archives on post cycle clomid therapy:
Starting post-cycle clomid therapy depends on what @#%$ was used during the cycle. Different @#%$ have different half lifes and beginning clomid intake should be adjusted accordingly. If clomid is taken when androgen levels in our body are still high, it will be a waste. You need to wait for androgen levels to fall before implementing clomid therapy. However, if you wait too long you could possibly lose gains. Look at the list below to determine when you should start clomid therapy. List all the @#%$ used in your cycle and which ever one has the latest starting point then go with that. For example, if cycle consisted of dbol, sustanon and winstrol, use cessation of sustanon to determine when to begin clomid as it remains active for the longest period of time.
Anadrol/Anapolan: 8 - 12 hours after last administration
Deca: 3 weeks after last injection and clomid for 4 weeks
Dianabol: 4 – 8 hours after last administration
Equipoise: 17 – 21 days after last injection
Fina: 3 days after last injection
Primobolan depot: 10 – 14 days after last injection
Sustanon: 3 weeks after last injection
Testosterone Cypionate: 2 weeks after last injection
Testosterone Enanthate: 2 weeks after last injection
Testosterone Propionate: 3 days after last injection
Testosterone Suspension: 4 – 8 hours after last administration
Winstrol: 8 – 12 hours after last administration
Use Clomid at 300mgs on first day of administration. Split this up 2 tabs (50mg ea.) 3 times a day. After first day, use 100mgs (one tab, 2 times a day) for 10 days and then followed by 50mgs for 10 days.
xcelbeyond
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04-12-2002 08:32 PM
peewee
Member
Registered: Feb 2002
Location:
Posts: 61
ok soooo.....
you're saying that test prop ed would work the same as test cyp 2x per week, assuming you used the same total mg's per week.
Cool!! Thats what I wanted to hear!!
Thanks
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Is the Hokey Pokey really what its all about???
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04-12-2002 09:03 PM
xcelbeyond
Better than avg BB'er
Registered: Jan 2002
Location: West Coast
Posts: 335
Re: ok soooo.....
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by peewee you're saying that test prop ed would work the same as test cyp 2x per week, assuming you used the same total mg's per week.
Cool!! Thats what I wanted to hear!!
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Actually - 100mg of prop has 83mg of hormone versus 100mg of cyp, which has 70mg of hormone!!!
xcelbeyond
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04-12-2002 09:56 PM
peewee
Member
Registered: Feb 2002
Location:
Posts: 61
True
Sorry, I did'nt take into account the ester weight. So prop would actually give you a higher blood test level when taking the same mg's per week opposed to a long acting ester.
Right on. This just keeps getting better!
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Is the Hokey Pokey really what its all about???
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04-12-2002 10:30 PM
LATS
Member
Registered: Jan 2002
Location:
Posts: 56
well excel, now you have really screwed me up.lol regarding the clomid, that makes sense. always good to get all the info possible. the whole weight of test thing has always screwed me up. if a person is taking 800 mgs of cyp, he really is not taking in 800 mgs of cyp? so would you not have to adjust the dosages accordingly? like shooting 1000 mgs of cyp to get your required amount?
i had talked to dave palumbo once about taking clomid during a cycle. he said "it is like pissing in the ocean. you are not accomplishing a thing." i know some disagree with this but, it makes since that it quit possibly is a waste of $$ and time.
lats
Member
Registered: Feb 2002
Location:
Posts: 61
Short acting esters vs Long acting esters
Pro's please help.
I am very confused on this topic. I hear that long acting esters build up blood levels because they are compounding with the time release. BUT.......do they release all at the same time? I mean, if you inject 200mg on monday and it last for 5 days, is the Test being released during the whole 5 days or only on the last day?
The real reason I'm asking is that I need to know what type of test is best for muscle gain. Long acting a few times per week, or short acting (like prop) every day? Short acting will not build up the same blood levels. Will this effect muscle growth?
HELP!!!!!!
__________________
Is the Hokey Pokey really what its all about???
Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged
04-11-2002 09:03 PM
LATS
Member
Registered: Jan 2002
Location:
Posts: 56
WELL, I AM NO PRO,
Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged
04-12-2002 05:40 PM
LATS
Member
Registered: Jan 2002
Location:
Posts: 56
well, i am no pro but, ill throw my two cents in here. test is test, it all depends on it half lives. many proponents of short act test say they like to be able to calculate more precisely when the compound is in or out of their system. many also like the fact that it works right away and if side effects happen they know it will be out of their system in a timely manner. but, the down side is all thoses frickin' shots to maintain blood levels.
personally , i love prop but, am getting tired of all the shots as i get old.lol i also dont care for sust because i cant be sure when it is out of my system as it is so long acting. i now use cyp and enth because i know it is out of the system in about a week and this enables my to calculate my clomid intake and avoid a shit load of injections.
i know phil used to love sust, so he might have a different take on this. later
Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged
04-12-2002 05:48 PM
xcelbeyond
Better than avg BB'er
Registered: Jan 2002
Location: West Coast
Posts: 335
Article from my archives on ester effectiveness
High Mg per ML Roids, What you need to know – by Iron Addict
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Not a week goes by that I don't get personal email questions from people about how to make high mg per ml gear. There are also lots of these posts on the boards so I'm taking a moment to clear a couple of things up.
1. Most hormones have a pretty low solubility in oil.
2. The primary ways to increase solubility are to
A) add solvent (BA or EA).
B) Add an ester to the hormone. The longer the ester the more hormone will fit in the oil at a certain mg per ml ratio. Conversely, the weight of the ester is also factored in the total mg per ml ratio, so while you can fit more hormone in, you are getting less actual hormone than the mg amount implies. Here are some examples:
Ester actual mg/100mg dose
test no ester 100
tren acetate 87
test prop 83
test enanth 72
test cyp 70
test undecan 63
nand phenyl 67
nand deca 64
This means that if your test cyp says 200 mgs per ml you get an actual 140 mgs of test. The rest of the weight is the weight of the ester. If that sounds like a bad deal you need to understand that test no ester is VERY insoluble in oil without going to very high mg per ml solvent concentrations.
This brings up the next point; PAIN!
Why do some shots hurt? There are two primary reasons. One, the solvent ratio is too high. Anything over about 10% starts to hurt. BA and EA are VERY inflammatory to the tissues. That’s why you want ONLY enough to help your oil hold more gear but not so much that it causes inflammation.
The second reason is that the gear crystallizes in the depot. This is precisely why water-based suspensions feel like hammer blows. The water is absorbed FAST, leaving the gear to crystallize in the tissues = PAIN. Even gear in oil can do this, here is how it works. If you use a low ester weight attached to your gear and make the mg per ml ratio SIGNIFICANTLY higher than the oil will hold on it's own, what happens is the body absorbs the solvent faster than the oil/gear and the gear falls out of the solution and crystallizes in the depot and WHAM, it hurts like hell. An optimum solution has just enough solvent to get more gear into solution than you could otherwise, but not so much that what I just stated happens. When the ratios are correct the gear holds in the solution UNTIL the whole depot is absorbed and very little or no pain is felt. Just to end this misconception once and for all IT IS NOT THE VOLUME OF THE OIL THAT CUASES THE PAIN, IT IS ONE OF THE CONDITIONS STATED ABOVE. You can shoot 5 cc's of sterile oil and never know you took a shot. It IS NOT HOW MUCH OIL YOU SHOOT! So why does everyone search for super high mg per ml ratio gear like it's the damn holy grail???
What is too high? Well the length of the ester is really what determines that but most of us here know the gear that hurts and know we know why. All tests over 250 mgs per ml hurt, and actually most of the 250 mg tests hurt too. SOOOO many people want there tren at 150-200 mgs per ml. Tren acetate should be at about what????? 75 mgs per ml. That is why all the kits are designed this way. Do you really think it's cheaper for the kit producers to add MORE oil to their kits instead of less? One other quick note. Oil is used because it SLOWS absorption. THIS IS PRECISELY WHAT YOU WANT IN A STEROI* SHOT! Less oil does not promote the steady state hormone levels achieved with more oil.
xcelbeyond
__________________
Lift smarter, not more
Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged
04-12-2002 08:31 PM
xcelbeyond
Better than avg BB'er
Registered: Jan 2002
Location: West Coast
Posts: 335
Sorry Lats, you're wasting a week of Clomid!
Here's more from my archives on post cycle clomid therapy:
Starting post-cycle clomid therapy depends on what @#%$ was used during the cycle. Different @#%$ have different half lifes and beginning clomid intake should be adjusted accordingly. If clomid is taken when androgen levels in our body are still high, it will be a waste. You need to wait for androgen levels to fall before implementing clomid therapy. However, if you wait too long you could possibly lose gains. Look at the list below to determine when you should start clomid therapy. List all the @#%$ used in your cycle and which ever one has the latest starting point then go with that. For example, if cycle consisted of dbol, sustanon and winstrol, use cessation of sustanon to determine when to begin clomid as it remains active for the longest period of time.
Anadrol/Anapolan: 8 - 12 hours after last administration
Deca: 3 weeks after last injection and clomid for 4 weeks
Dianabol: 4 – 8 hours after last administration
Equipoise: 17 – 21 days after last injection
Fina: 3 days after last injection
Primobolan depot: 10 – 14 days after last injection
Sustanon: 3 weeks after last injection
Testosterone Cypionate: 2 weeks after last injection
Testosterone Enanthate: 2 weeks after last injection
Testosterone Propionate: 3 days after last injection
Testosterone Suspension: 4 – 8 hours after last administration
Winstrol: 8 – 12 hours after last administration
Use Clomid at 300mgs on first day of administration. Split this up 2 tabs (50mg ea.) 3 times a day. After first day, use 100mgs (one tab, 2 times a day) for 10 days and then followed by 50mgs for 10 days.
xcelbeyond
__________________
Lift smarter, not more
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04-12-2002 08:32 PM
peewee
Member
Registered: Feb 2002
Location:
Posts: 61
ok soooo.....
you're saying that test prop ed would work the same as test cyp 2x per week, assuming you used the same total mg's per week.
Cool!! Thats what I wanted to hear!!
Thanks
__________________
Is the Hokey Pokey really what its all about???
Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged
04-12-2002 09:03 PM
xcelbeyond
Better than avg BB'er
Registered: Jan 2002
Location: West Coast
Posts: 335
Re: ok soooo.....
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by peewee you're saying that test prop ed would work the same as test cyp 2x per week, assuming you used the same total mg's per week.
Cool!! Thats what I wanted to hear!!
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Actually - 100mg of prop has 83mg of hormone versus 100mg of cyp, which has 70mg of hormone!!!
xcelbeyond
__________________
Lift smarter, not more
Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged
04-12-2002 09:56 PM
peewee
Member
Registered: Feb 2002
Location:
Posts: 61
True
Sorry, I did'nt take into account the ester weight. So prop would actually give you a higher blood test level when taking the same mg's per week opposed to a long acting ester.
Right on. This just keeps getting better!
__________________
Is the Hokey Pokey really what its all about???
Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged
04-12-2002 10:30 PM
LATS
Member
Registered: Jan 2002
Location:
Posts: 56
well excel, now you have really screwed me up.lol regarding the clomid, that makes sense. always good to get all the info possible. the whole weight of test thing has always screwed me up. if a person is taking 800 mgs of cyp, he really is not taking in 800 mgs of cyp? so would you not have to adjust the dosages accordingly? like shooting 1000 mgs of cyp to get your required amount?
i had talked to dave palumbo once about taking clomid during a cycle. he said "it is like pissing in the ocean. you are not accomplishing a thing." i know some disagree with this but, it makes since that it quit possibly is a waste of $$ and time.
lats
