Someone closed the Elk thread .....

[Iabadman]

I respect all the mods here and their judgement as well .......I went back and deleated my posts in the Elk thread that started the disagreements .......I am sorry you still felt is was nessary to lock the thread up ........I just wanted to let JT to know that I couldn't open his attactment that he left for me ........so JT, if you see this ,pm me [ not sure if you got my last one a few weeks back ,because i didn't hear back ] Anyway , to the mods ........I didn't mean for this to get out of hand ,I hate when i am part any thread that gets locked up .........one last time sorry fellas !!!

 

[Phidias]

Here in the south part of Europe we have the same kind of debate each year with corridas: an anaesthetized bull "fighting" (what a joke ) alone against an armed with blades so called brave man, named torrero. The whole scene in front of thousand of people sitting in a stadium after having paid 100 bucks their seat, and just waiting for one damn thing... DEATH.

Makes me sick: how people can be so cruel, which pleasure can you find in watching a life leaving this world?

But more than anything, how can you consider the man who happens to kill such a wonderful being a HERO

Of course, same goes with hunting and the Elk...

So IAB, please stop apologizing and stand by your words... sure everyone is entilted to his own opinion on the subject... but truth of the matter is if you kill for fun and then pose for a stupid pic like a world champ, you're nothing more than a big piece of shit who just commited a murder.

 

[Iabadman]

Phidias........my friend I respect your conviction , your support , and your emotion on the subject . but here is where we differ . You have to respect the opposite veiw point of things and leave your mind and heart open to things[ even if you don't always understand them ].........I get emotional when it comes to subjects like these , but I will always step back and try to rspect / understand the opposite veiwpoints.....because all you accomplish is division when you don't .......I am far from perfect .........but I have learned through my years people are more open to learning new behaviors when they feel respected , loved , and understood ...........if you call someone a piece of shit or a redneck you are only envoking anger , hurt , and defensiveness .......But if you try to understand and respect their beliefs then maybe .......just maybe ,they will open their hearts and minds to a new way of seeing things . If they even hessitate just for a second before they to pull a tigger next time , then maybe that gives a beautiful creature another day on the planet .......do you see what I am saying ?

Someone I respect greatly around here just brought up the cruelity of man . And honestly ,I just don't understand it . Men are cruel , selfish , and destructive like no other animal . Now I have seen and done things that men that have only been to war have bared witness to . But I just don't understand senseless killing , rape , molestation , cheating ,waste ,destruction , ect..........I never have .........never will .....yes , I can be a violent man , when threatened , hurt , or coming to the aid of another in distress........but I am driven by love ........I feel lost many times in this selfish crazy world .......everybody judging and hating one another ..those thought processes don't exist in my brain......So keep being yourself [ you seem like a great person ] but don't forget to try to love , respect ,and understand others along the way ...........if you want to make a differance, then honestly my friend, this is the way to go ............I am far perfect when it comes to this .......but this is the perspective I have always tried to have . I mess up .......like I did in the Elk thread , but I always admit my mistakes and take my lumps for it like a man .......I always try to do the right things every day..... even on a message board.........like they say , " Practice makes perfect " ........ so thanks again for sharing your thoughts here ........I wish more people shared your compassion ....you are obviously a kind loving person!!! All my best you !!!

 

[bulldog21]

But I just don't understand senseless killing , rape , molestation , cheating ,waste ,destruction , ect..........I never have .........never will .....yes , I can be a violent man , when threatened , hurt , or coming to the aid of another in distress........but I am driven by love ........I feel lost many times in this selfish crazy world .......everybody judging and hating one another ..those thought processes don't exist in my brain......So keep being yourself [ you seem like a great person ] but don't forget to try to love , respect ,and understand others along the way ...........if you want to make a differance, then honestly my friend, this is the way to go ............I am far perfect when it comes to this .......but this is the perspective I have always tried to have

I feel the same way man, I feel lost sometimes in this crazy place cause those thought process don't register in my brain either..... All my friends always say I am too nice that I always see the good in people rather than what they are...But that is the way I am wired too: Love, repsect, and understand....until you do something to me and then I will simply ignore your existence, or turn violent...

 

[Big A]

I locked that thread.

You have nothing to apologise for.

 

[DOGMA]

Tell me Phidias, what type of food do you eat? Are you a strict vegaterian? If not you too a perpetuating your so called murder by eating your Fish, Beef, Chicken, Eggs (OH MY GOD... A FETAL CHICKEN HOW CAN YOU BE SO CRUEL) how about Lamb and pork too... You murduring piece of shit.... You own words peckerwood...

"You gotta kill it before you grill it"....Ted Nugent....

And if your a vegatarian I apologize. LOL.

 

[Phidias]

Dogma,

Wanna know the difference between eating a steak from a cow breed in this precise purpose (feeding people), and finding pleasure in seeing an animal agonizing for hours: TORTURE. Yes my friend, that's nothing less than cruelty.

Who was this elk bothering while running quietly in the woods, eating fresh fruits and loving his significant other? Don't you think his family (yes, like humans... who for a vast majority shouldn't be called like that anymore, but that's another story) will be missing him? I'm sure you won't shed a tear, but maybe he had some little elks patiently waiting for him under a big oak... see my point?

Yes I eat red meat, tuna, chicken... and a lot, but I am also perfectly aware that the men who killed those animals didn't do it for pleasure or for the sake of being pictured in a fancy hunting magazine... they had to do it for a living, just to nourrish their family. I am pretty confident in the fact they don't like taking lives away from this world. And that makes ONE HELL OF A DIFFERENCE.

Iab... there are times when you can't handle with tact and be a "centrist". I understand those who think hunting is just a leisure, but I'm sorry it's not. Or if it is, it's a barbaric one.

I am sure JT and others are great guys who just were raised in the tradition of hunting since childhood, no prob.

But all in all, killing FOR PLEASURE is not acceptable.

 

[OuchThatHurts]

another novel from OTH...

Not sure what it's worth but I'll give you my humble opinion on this and some facts as well.

Men are hunters. Not just today but from the beginning. Hunting satisfies a vestigial need that can't be satisfied by grabbing a pack of frozen chicken breasts at your local grocery store. Vestigial just means that it pertains to something we do not use or need anymore. In this case, the need to hunt. It's part of your biology whether you like it or not. It becomes increasingly evident the moment you go out into the wild and come home with a kill. Yes. A kill. For everything that lives, something has to die. So whether at the hands of some "rednecks" or a mountain lion, the animal will be taken. Or do you think that animals in the wild live to a ripe old age and take their last breath in the presence of their caring young ones?

It's okay if you believe in the ethical treatment of animals. I think ethical treatment is a good thing. But I think a problem occurs when an animal is placed on par or above the welfare of a human being. There are many starving and hungry people in this world, people killing people, murder, rape, etc. You can watch the news and see a man get his head chopped off. When was the last time you saw a dog or a horse get its head chopped off on the news? They will show you bodies lying in the streets but not a drop of animal blood. Now I'm not saying I want to see dead animals but I think people need to prioritize. Ever watch a movie and see dozens, maybe hundreds of people getting killed in every possible way yet at the end you see a little "No animals were harmed in the making of this film" Do you think anyone ever wonders "Were any people harmed in the making of this film???" Ever walk through a pet food aisle? It's almost comical how extravagant people are with their pets. Ever watch and see heroic men in a chopper rescue Rover from a roof while families are still waiting to be rescued?

A contributing factor here is that somewhere along the line, people forgot that animals are animals and people are people. I have a Brittany spaniel. She is just a year old and almost died recently after swallowing a ball that lodged in her digestive tract. They had to cut her open to remove it. Now, it cost thousands (it was a LOT). I had to stop, pause and think whether or not that was a moral thing to do. After all, my son could use that money for college or a hundred other uses. Perhaps even a charity. But since we all get enjoyment out of the animal, I opted for the surgery. That, and if I didn't pony up the dough, I'd have been killed in my sleep. But let's get back to the point.

Have you ever considered that much of this occurred since we started putting human traits on animals? Movies about animals that talk and live together in families, nurturing one another, being friends, etc. Who didn't cry when Bambi's mother got shot? Or more recently, movies like Ice Age that are even more convincing than previous cartoon animation. It’s all just anthropomorphic fantasy. We are all a part of nature and nature kills indiscriminately. Do any of you think that you are so important that a hurricane or earthquake won’t take your life next week? Beyond that, after you are dead, do you think nature will look back and think, “Wow, that was some cruel heartless shit!” Don’t think so. Although, with some luck, an eagle of record-breaking proportions will be carrying some of you off to feed it’s young.

I guess what I'm asking is that people consider whether or not they are placing the welfare of an animal over the welfare of a person. Maybe it's just that man has tamed much of the world and there is very little wilds to conquer. If this is the case, it only seems fitting that subduing something that is already subdued is inhumane. I think it is a good thing to hunt. I think it's a perfectly natural and healthy thing to do. I also believe you have to hunt responsibly. Some animals are on the brink of extinction and I'd like my grandchildren to see a live elephant and rhinoceros. If a bunch of guys enjoy going out into game lands and killing a buck or an elk, really, who cares? If you don’t enjoy such things, then don’t.

So hunt if you want. But hunt responsibly and obey the laws.
Or don't hunt and take pictures.
Or let someone else kill for you and enjoy your next burger.
All are fine but don't put the wellbeing of an animal above a human. That's all I'm asking.

 

[TONE]

I just want to say that I think we should get Ronnie taxidermied.

 

[Phidias]

All are fine but don't put the wellbeing of an animal above a human.

We're not talking of perfuming and doing your poodle's hair for a beauty contest...

If you want to satisfy your ancestral hunting instincts, why not doing it in a more civilized manner, more adapted to the 21th century... such as clay pigeon shooting for example?

 

[OuchThatHurts]

We're not talking of perfuming and doing your poodle's hair for a beauty contest...

If you want to satisfy your ancestral hunting instincts, why not doing it in a more civilized manner, more adapted to the 21th century... such as clay pigeon shooting for example?

That's fine too! I think I know what you are saying. You're a very caring and compassionate person. If you look at it from a religious perspective, people showing mercy toward lower creatures is similiar to the way "God" shows mercy to us. I think there is some deep depravity in a person who delights in the pulling of wings off flys. Even if you're not a religious or spiritual person, showing mercy is never a bad thing.

But here's the problem. You can't eat a clay pigeon. That's why I said hunt responsibly.

In most places of the world you can shoot an animal dead, laugh, and walk away. Is it legal? Yes. Do you have the right to do it? Yes. Should you? - here's where the debate comes in.

I remember a few years back, up in PA, the Gettysburg national Park had so many deer due to lack of predation that I believe there was a brief no-limit hunting season. The number had to be reduced as there was not enough food for them and they were starving to death by the thousands in the winter. What a waste! Do you know how many families would have accepted a month's worth of healthy meat?

I know that's just one particular circumstance but the idea is valid. You can, lawfully and ethically, go out and kill a deer and enjoy the meat. Or you can let someone else do it for you and eat your steak with a clear conscience. I just see very little difference with the exception of animals that are endangered species.

 

[rAJJIN]

Hahaha, Its funny how one locked thread
always gets followed by atleast one or two more
Everyone Just has to get that last little bit in.
I said about all I can in the other one, I can understand both sides.

When it gets to the point the board starts splitting in groups or people
have said Just about all that can be said but still want argue or "debate" it...
Thats what gets em locked or deleted Im guessing.

 

[DOGMA]

[edit] by OTH

Dogma, you've been here a while and I respect all your contributions. If you can't make a point without name-calling and being abusive to another member, than refrain until you calm down a bit. You disagree with Phidias. Can you do it in a civilized manner?

Thanks bro.

 

[The Myth]

I find this very funny, sort of like the division in the US over the O.J. Simpson trial. Unlike the war, which brings in a much deeper conviction of one self, the meaningless and comical division over something so petty can happen where? "Only in America". Don King, just in case someone maybe wanted to sue me for copyrights infringement.

 

[DOGMA]

I apologize

Your right OTH..... I apologize for the name calling, its got no place here. I just get steamed when someone else tells another what is acceptable or not, and I am not talking opinions either.

The Myth, have you really meet someone who did not think OJ was guilty???
LOL.

I'll go to my corner now.

 

[Kaiser]

I see what you are saying OTH, but I disagree to some extent. Vestigial needs have been smoothed out and transformed over the years. Lets take in consideration rape. Men had the instinct to whack a female over the head and take advantage of her, but we all agree we should not allow this in this day and age. I look at it as human race refinement, but we haven't grasped refinement to the point of respecting wildlife. I have to tell ya, I hate to sound out of line, and this thread will probably get a little more engrossed after this, but I would rather hurt a human being (grown male with the ability to defend himself) than an animal. No problem at all. I once put a guy in the hospital for taking a cinder block and smashing a large turtle flat. Why would he do that? As a matter of fact, I look at things like this elk killing as taking something from my world. They took a magnificent animal out just for self satisfaction. OK, I eat meat like most, but there is a metered function for doing so. It's called a livestock farm. Keyword "livestock". They all look the same, there is an over abundance, and they are basically living food. Take the elk on the other hand, I would have loved to have seen that animal walking, but because someone feels the need to have a trophy, they put it down. How many arrows do you think that huge animal took before it dropped? In the end I consider the human race as more of a virus to the earth than a habitant.

 

[OuchThatHurts]

I see what you are saying OTH, but I disagree to some extent. Vestigial needs have been smoothed out and transformed over the years. Lets take in consideration rape. Men had the instinct to whack a female over the head and take advantage of her, but we all agree we should not allow this in this day and age. I look at it as human race refinement, but we haven't grasped refinement to the point of respecting wildlife. I have to tell ya, I hate to sound out of line, and this thread will probably get a little more engrossed after this, but I would rather hurt a human being (grown male with the ability to defend himself) than an animal. No problem at all. I once put a guy in the hospital for taking a cinder block and smashing a large turtle flat. Why would he do that? As a matter of fact, I look at things like this elk killing as taking something from my world. They took a magnificent animal out just for self satisfaction. OK, I eat meat like most, but there is a metered function for doing so. It's called a livestock farm. Keyword "livestock". They all look the same, there is an over abundance, and they are basically living food. Take the elk on the other hand, I would have loved to have seen that animal walking, but because someone feels the need to have a trophy, they put it down. How many arrows do you think that huge animal took before it dropped? In the end I consider the human race as more of a virus to the earth than a habitant.

Well that's okay! I respect your point of view. I think though that it may be possible that your emotions are affecting your ability to keep a logical and objective thought process. In the first instance, a rape is an unatural thing. I don't know of any evidence that shows that we clubbed women and dragged them back to our caves and had our way. Even still, men are still whacking women over the head and take advantage of them. That hasn't changed. The refinement you speak of is not globally equal either. We (nations, cultures) are all at different degrees of "refinement". How refined is a person who beats another into the hospital? That certainly isn't behavior moving toward refinement is it? Now the elk. That was not that last elk. You can still watch elk roam free all you like. Elk are going to get taken out irregardless. So are turtles. Was it right what that guy did? No. But had you found a way to convince him that what he did was wrong and why, he may have even saved a few along the way.

Maybe it would not have done any good. Some people are just assholes. You make me feel like an idealist! LOL

 

[Kaiser]

I think though that it may be possible that your emotions are affecting your ability to keep a logical and objective thought process.

Nope, they're not.

 

[DOGMA]

WOW

"In the end I consider the human race as more of a virus to the earth than a habitant" Your scaring me!!!!

Tell me Kaiser, what you now about the current Elk population in North America.

Did you think that Bovine were not "wild animals" at one time. And that Elk cannot be domesticated?

And if I raised one from a calf, I could kill it and that would somehow be more acceptable?

I hate to break this to you Bro but Elk are a food source.

A mountain Lion can take one but a human cant?

You really value a turtles life over that of a human's well being?

I am asking these questions only to try and understand your logic..

I am not even an Elk or Deer hunter. I do hunt Spring turkey and big game fish do I deserve to have my ass beat?

 

[Kaiser]

"In the end I consider the human race as more of a virus to the earth than a habitant" Your scaring me!!!!

Tell me Kaiser, what you now about the current Elk population in North America.

Did you think that Bovine were not "wild animals" at one time. And that Elk cannot be domesticated?

And if I raised one from a calf, I could kill it and that would somehow be more acceptable?

I hate to break this to you Bro but Elk are a food source.

A mountain Lion can take one but a human cant?

You really value a turtles life over that of a human's well being?

I am asking these questions only to try and understand your logic..

I am not even an Elk or Deer hunter. I do hunt Spring turkey and big game fish do I deserve to have my ass beat?

I dont think you are understanding my post correcly, so I'll try and explain further. As for the turtle, he was killing it just to be cruel. He was not planning on eating a Painter turtle. He just wanted to show he could kill it. As far as the elk is concerned, the way I took the original post is that it was a human accomplishment, including but not limited to photographs. How was it stated and brought forth? Largest elk found and killed.