T3 for chicks

Count Trapula · Feb 11, 2005

My girlfriend is about to start some T3 and I was wondering on the dosages for her. She did a quick 2 weeks once, only 20mcgs a day, w/o much results. I know I use it at arouns 100-120mcg/day. I'm thinking of bumping her up to around 75mcg/day for 2 weeks this time. It's been about a year since she's last done it.

Thanks.

Dad · Feb 11, 2005

Perhaps...

I'd recommend having her TSH levels checked first in order to get a baseline, and make sure she is in the normal range to start with.
.
Then, assumming your T3 is genuine, try 25 mcg one day and 50 mcg the next for an average of 37.5 mcg. This is an 87.5% increase over the 20 mcg you say she tried before - a big jump!

I've known a woman friend to use 50 mcg per day for no more than 4 weeks at a time, but not more than this. You may also need to moderate her estrogen levels a bit if fat loss is her goal. If her estrogens are high, which will happen with "normal" bodyfat levels most women have, she may still have difficulty losing weight. Using .25-.50 mg of Arimidex each day will take care of any estrogen problem nicely, but Nolvedex alone, being a selective estrogen receptor modulator (SERM) may not do the trick.

It's going to a bit trial and error - others may have additional ideas - this is just based upon my experience working with women trying to get cut for BB shows.

Skip · Feb 12, 2005

Dad said:
If her estrogens are high, which will happen with "normal" bodyfat levels most women have, she may still have difficulty losing weight. Using .25-.50 mg of Arimidex each day will take care of any estrogen problem nicely, but Nolvedex alone, being a selective estrogen receptor modulator (SERM) may not do the trick.

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I do not do contest prep for women because I don't understand the relationship between gear, ancilliaries and the female hormonal system. I admit this. However, I have concerns with your advice above about using an anti estrogen with someone who is not getting ready for a show, to lose weight. In theory, you may be correct but I can't see how this would be a great idea going against a woman's estrogen level and especially with .5mg of arimidex. Wouldn't the rebound after coming off of the anti e be out of control? What other issues need to be looked at with cutting estrogen in a female? I am all ears as to your opinions on this. I will come around if you can convince me. Also, you guys still talk abut arimidex and letro and I can't figure out why no one is using aromasin and saving their health a little bit. ?

Skip

Dad · Feb 12, 2005

Skip,

You're right - this IS going against a woman's natural estrogen production. Without writing a physiology text, here are a few things it seems play into this.

Suppose you've got an average woman, not overly fat, but like all women, wants to lose weight - meaning lose fat. First, she produces estrogen from the ovaries as she goes through her menstrual cycle. But, she also produces androgens, both from the ovaries, AND from the adrenal glands. These androgens get converted to estrogens by aromatase in the woman's bodyfat. And, the higher the bodyfat, and the higher the adrogen production, the more of this conversion that takes place, and the more estrogen we have. Without pathology, this is all manitained in a tight balance that's somewhat specific for each woman.

Now, adding T3 will increase her basal matabolism, but it increases it accross the board. Drugs are metabolised faster, protein turnover is higher, fats are utilized for fuel, etc, etc. This won't have any effect on the ovarian/adrenal estrogen equation just discussed unless things get way out of whack (another fine, complicated mess). Rebound, in the classic sense, won't happen, because you've not suppressed a feedback loop, but simply interfered with an enzyme. It may appear to be rebounding, but in fact, you just now have the enzyme able to do its job without interference once more. With AAS you get rebound because you are suppressing endogenous production and interfering with the negative feedback loop involved in gonadotrophins. I can't comment on Letro and Aromasin, as I've not read about nor used these, only Arimidex. By the way, Nolvadex is a Selective Estrogen Receptor Modulator (SERM) which is great for preventing gyno as it's selective for breast tissue, but not as good for overall water retention or estrogen blockage.

A lot of women CAN lose weight with just diet and exercize, and maybe, as The Count suggests, a bit of T3. But, there are women for whom this won't be enough, and they'll KILL themselves in the gym and with diet/areobics to lose just a little bit or none at all. If this is the case, then the culprit may well be the estrogen issue. As to whether someone not getting ready for a show should use this approach? I guess that, like all drug use, is a personal choice.

I know I'm leaving a lot out here, but didn't think anyone wanted to read a book. Hope this helps.

MikeS · Feb 12, 2005

Now maybe Im wrong, but doesnt the vast majority of female hormones come from Prolactin, the parent female hormone in woman (and in low levels in men)?
And does this function on a feedback loop? I, like Skip, am not as aware of
the details of the female hormonal process.

Skip · Feb 13, 2005

I would have been fine with the book version, too. : ) Very interesting stuff as I just don't understand everything involved. I get your explanation and quite frankly, I can't counter it. If what you are saying is possible without a huge rebound, something like aromasin would have to (in theory) be an even better choice than arimidex, though.

I am going to keep my eyes on this thread in case Dad or someone else wants to chime in. I will also check around to see if I can find any other info on this as I find it intriguing.

Skip

AWN2004 · Feb 13, 2005

From what I understand,unless a woman is using test....there is no reason A-dex is gonna be as effective. To start off with...I am no guru but I did a bunch of research on this because somebody asked me almost this exact question and I had no real clue. From my understanding the female hormone estrogen needs to be drasticaly lowered in order for fat to come off easier which of course makes sense. What good does A-dex do since its primary function is to stop the conversion over to estrogen. I talked to an individual who helps a couple female bodybuilders with their prep. He was telling me that unless they are taking some sort of testosterone, a-dex is a waste. Maybe hes wrong. I understand that whole SERM thing with nolvadex, but it just makes more sense to me. This is just my opinion on the whole thing.

Skip · Feb 13, 2005

And that is EXACTLY why I think aromasin would work so much better.

Skip

Dad · Feb 13, 2005

Briefly - aromasin and prolactin

Well, I did an admittedly-quick check on Aromasin, as I didn't know much about this nor have I used it.

Aromasin AND Arimidex are both aromatase enzyme inhibitors. Their primary use is in postmenopausal women with estrogen-sensitive breast cancers. Since the are both the same class of drug, and work at the same enzyme pathway, it would seem that there would be little advantage in choosing one over the other. Is one "easier" on the liver? Any drug that is made for oral consumption must be treated to reduce first-pass metolism that occurs in the gut wall and liver. Because of this, there will be some stress on the liver which can be measured on LFT's. How much liver function is altered will depend on host of factors, and vary somewhat from patient to patient. Thus, it would seem that blanket statements about one drug vs another in the same class would be a gross oversimplification.

Now, Prolactin. Prolactin is produced in the pituitary and exists on an axis with Dopamine - more dopamine, less prolactin and vice versa. It works in Women to stimulate lactation, and hpyerprolactinemia (excess prolactin) can be a problem for a number of reasons. Men can have this problem, too. Excess prolactin is sometimes caused by a prolactin-secreting tumor. While it is indeed a female (and male) hormone, it is usually not the culprit when one has difficulty losing fat.

Again, these are simplified explainations, and sometimes a little knowledge in more dangerous than none at all LOL! But, it seems that for purposes of this discussion, this might suffice. Hope it helps!