The 'feel' of the weight vs just move the damn weight

[Moen]

Wanted to start a discussion on this, I know Phil Hernon says to basically just move the weight (certainly do correct me if I'm misinterpreting) while a lot of others say to go for the feel and also claim to have gotten superior results after the switch to a more feeling-oriented approach.

I must admit that a lot of times, especially on smaller muscles like biceps and triceps, when going too heavy (or perhaps going too heavy too fast?), I end up with the feeling of having worked everything besides the target muscle. Perhaps this biofeedback from the body is deceptive?

Obviously opinions will vary on this one so please keep it clean

 

[Dens228]

My thought is you need to move the weight but with the caveat that you need to do the exercise correctly for the muscle you are targeting.

For example for the longest time I did close grips with the intention of targeting my triceps. I lowered it to my lower pec line/upper abs like a power bench press and felt it in my tris/pecs/delts equally.

Now I lower the bar a little higher on the chest, just above the nipple, a slightly closer grip, elbows still fairly close to my sides not allowing them to flair out.
Once I got that form down I just move the damn weight, I let the form/function of the exercise target the muscle I'm trying to work, I don't try to "feel" the tricep working. But when it's right, you feel it!

I hope this makes sense to anyone besides me............It sure sounds right in my head.

 

[VTliftVT]

Wanted to start a discussion on this, I know Phil Hernon says to basically just move the weight (certainly do correct me if I'm misinterpreting) while a lot of others say to go for the feel and also claim to have gotten superior results after the switch to a more feeling-oriented approach.

I must admit that a lot of times, especially on smaller muscles like biceps and triceps, when going too heavy (or perhaps going too heavy too fast?), I end up with the feeling of having worked everything besides the target muscle. Perhaps this biofeedback from the body is deceptive?

Obviously opinions will vary on this one so please keep it clean

I experience this too at times when say doing heavy close grip after already doing chest and shoulders. No matter how far back I tuck my shoulders they still seem to burn after the tricep exercise. Once I started doing dips however, I felt that my shoulders were not nearly as involved and my triceps are more pumped. I still did not focus on feeling the tricep work and just focused on pushing my ass up to the top but at the same time still felt myself finish off the contraction once at the top much stronger than the CG benches. My opinion is that yes, move the weight but make sure its on an exerice that works for you where you can recruit the muscle you are needing to work. I would love to hear further discussion as well...

 

[Big Bapper]

Dont think Phil would say that

Go for feel proper ROM for your body type and the heavy weights will come. Trust me there is no point just getting it from a to b. Just a fast track to injury.

 

[Ness]

If you're a total newb, you need to understand how to lift properly so that you can make gains and maintain your longevity. That may or may not include "feeling" the weight. If you want to continually progress you need consistency and longevity is consistency. However, Im sure everyone here is past the pure basics of how to train properly so form, feeling, etc are all second nature and you don't need to focus on these basic skills so much.

Like learning to ride a bike, once you "get it" you don't need to think about how to keep your balance and pedal anymore. You have advanced beyond that simple skill process and now you need to focus on more complex skills like doing a reverse flip.....focusing on how to pedal and keep your balance is a waste of brain power as its already second nature.

My first workset on dips for Triceps is 4 plates and a quarter. I don't feel a damn thing except a sick feeling in my gut. I just focus on moving the weight until I cannot anymore.

Im not stating this as factual, but only my thoughts and opinion on the matter...

 

[Sesshomaru]

I must admit that a lot of times, especially on smaller muscles like biceps and triceps, when going too heavy (or perhaps going too heavy too fast?), I end up with the feeling of having worked everything besides the target muscle. Perhaps this biofeedback from the body is deceptive?

Obviously opinions will vary on this one so please keep it clean

This is a neurological reaction to keep you from getting injured. As the acceleration or load of a movement increases, the body recruits more muscle fibers and groups to assist in a movement.

This is why when doing rotator cuff movements, you want to use a light weight and a very slow motion to actually isolate the muscles in the cuff and keep the deltoid, lat, and chest from taking over.

My opinion is make sure the prime mover of the exercise (in this case biceps) is doing most of the work. As the weight gets heavier, you might feel it in other areas despite good form. But if you dont feel it in the biceps at all, check your ego at the door and use a load and technique that works the right muscles.

I experience this too at times when say doing heavy close grip after already doing chest and shoulders. No matter how far back I tuck my shoulders they still seem to burn after the tricep exercise. Once I started doing dips however, I felt that my shoulders were not nearly as involved and my triceps are more pumped.

VT how do you bench? I notice a lot of times, if one benches for chest (but with elbows flared out) they def use more deltoid than if they were pushing a bar as if they were pushing someone away from them. If all of your benching is like this, then when you get to CG BP, your shoulders will be more fatigued than your triceps.

 

[Lenny]

Wanted to start a discussion on this, I know Phil Hernon says to basically just move the weight (certainly do correct me if I'm misinterpreting) while a lot of others say to go for the feel and also claim to have gotten superior results after the switch to a more feeling-oriented approach.

I must admit that a lot of times, especially on smaller muscles like biceps and triceps, when going too heavy (or perhaps going too heavy too fast?), I end up with the feeling of having worked everything besides the target muscle. Perhaps this biofeedback from the body is deceptive?

Obviously opinions will vary on this one so please keep it clean

Both...I like to feel the weight while challenging it with sufficient/difficult load. It is easier to fill the weight with biceps and triceps because you can see the muscle contracting (the whole mind/muscle connection)...I think it is more difficult to feel it with your back muscles because you can't see it working and contracting because it is not visible to your eyes. Just a thought I have, but I am getting better at feeling it while pushing/pulling a heavy load! I always make sure the muscle is fully warmed up, blood in there, pretty much like a mini pump before hitting my payout set for each exercise!

 

[btech]

....especially on smaller muscles like biceps and triceps, when going too heavy (or perhaps going too heavy too fast?), I end up with the feeling of having worked everything besides the target muscle.

http://www.professionalmuscle.com/forums/showthread.php?t=47772

 

[Moen]

I'm not asking for biceps training advice here btech

I have no problem whatsoever feeling it in the target muscle myself (whichever that may be). The question I'm posing here is: do you listen to the biofeedback of your body which tells you to stick to weight x (whichever feels like its working the target muscle the hardest) or do you go heavy as you can safely go?

ie: is the biofeedback deceptive and does it result in you actually making lesser gains?

 

[Moen]

My first workset on dips for Triceps is 4 plates and a quarter. I don't feel a damn thing except a sick feeling in my gut. I just focus on moving the weight until I cannot anymore.

Im not stating this as factual, but only my thoughts and opinion on the matter...

This is what I meant indeed. This IS what Phil advises too right? Of course no one is going to advise 'just move it from a to b'. There is a nuance I'm hinting at here. We all know the feeling.

Take this hypothetical example:You can physically bench 365 in good form for 8 reps. You bench press 315 for 8 reps and get the feeling of having had a great chest workout, while at the same time, you benching 365 for 8 reps might 'feel' like a whole lot less chest stimulation. But what is actually going to produce more results according to all of you here? (I'm not saying a nor b, I want discussion!)

 

[SABAGOY]

I just move as much weight as i can while staying in my target ROM and keeping good form...I might not "feel" the muscle as much during the set but feel using heavier poundage and not focusing as much on the "feel" has given me great results.

 

[Ness]

This is what I meant indeed. This IS what Phil advises too right? Of course no one is going to advise 'just move it from a to b'. There is a nuance I'm hinting at here. We all know the feeling.

Take this hypothetical example:You can physically bench 365 in good form for 8 reps. You bench press 315 for 8 reps and get the feeling of having had a great chest workout, while at the same time, you benching 365 for 8 reps might 'feel' like a whole lot less chest stimulation. But what is actually going to produce more results according to all of you here? (I'm not saying a nor b, I want discussion!)

Yes...I dont feel anything different when I bench 350 for 5 or 315 for 10. It "feels" the same...just that gut ache. Honestly, if I went on "feel" I would be scared to add the poundage and then I wouldn't progress.

 

[Tom]

discussion

i guess it's about muscle fiber recruitment. which promotes more recruitment....slow reps you feel through the rom or fast explosive execution of the rep. throw in the negative portion of the rep and it gets even more involved. i don't know which method recruits more muscle fibers so for the sake of argument i'll say vary your training to take advantage of the benefits of different styles. over the years i've seen guys as small as 150lbs benching close to 400 lbs and they have no more than an athletic physique and i've seen large muscular guys over 220 lbs who can barely do reps with 315 lbs. the whole thing is really quite puzzling and it comes down to what? genetics, style of training, free weights vs. machines, one's mindset? i'm almost old and i'm still trying to figure this shit out. i should have taken up golf or tennis and made some money over all these years.

 

[VTliftVT]

VT how do you bench? I notice a lot of times, if one benches for chest (but with elbows flared out) they def use more deltoid than if they were pushing a bar as if they were pushing someone away from them. If all of your benching is like this, then when you get to CG BP, your shoulders will be more fatigued than your triceps.

I USE to keep my elbows flared quite a bit and noticed exactly as you stated. I have since made several adjustments and grip wider, keep my elbows tucked a lot more, open my chest up by pinching my shoulder blades together, all in trying to shorten my ROM up to keep my delts out of it. I am 6'1'' and have pretty long arms so this has seemed to correct the use of the delts 10 fold compared to what it was when I first started lifting. Currently I am doing DB floor presses and love them. My chest is always destroyed when I am done and delts and tri's are good to go...

I have to contribute much of the shoulder fatigue with heavy military dumbbell presses prior to tricep work I believe.

 

[Moen]

i guess it's about muscle fiber recruitment. which promotes more recruitment....slow reps you feel through the rom or fast explosive execution of the rep. throw in the negative portion of the rep and it gets even more involved. i don't know which method recruits more muscle fibers so for the sake of argument i'll say vary your training to take advantage of the benefits of different styles. over the years i've seen guys as small as 150lbs benching close to 400 lbs and they have no more than an athletic physique and i've seen large muscular guys over 220 lbs who can barely do reps with 315 lbs. the whole thing is really quite puzzling and it comes down to what? genetics, style of training, free weights vs. machines, one's mindset? i'm almost old and i'm still trying to figure this shit out. i should have taken up golf or tennis and made some money over all these years.

Agreed Tom! No need to look for definitive answers, healthy debate is fine too!

 

[Designbuilt]

Go for feel proper ROM for your body type and the heavy weights will come. Trust me there is no point just getting it from a to b. Just a fast track to injury.

I agree with this. Furthermore, you have to push (or pull) the weight but in a controlled manner, not slamming it up, or using leverage and momentum like olyimpic lifters do.

You have to muscle the weight up, use the muscle to lift the weight, then increase the weight to lift as much as you can, but only by using the muscles, not momentum, nor swinging, etc.

 

[witefall]

I took the following (cut and paste) from an article about maximizing hypertropy. I don't have a list of the sources cited for this article but I'm positive that the sources cited were from collegiate atheletics researchers at various universities. This is not from a muscle mag.

Note how very similiar their recommendation is to that of Big A's in his article on the basics of how to grow.


"Researchers are finding that a simple change in weight training technique can have dramatic effects in building muscle. Instead of lifting a weight for 5 or 7 seconds, lift it steadily in a 10 to 14 second movement, then down in 5 to 10 seconds.

The difference is that the muscles are exhausted - brought to momentary muscle failure - in fewer repetitions (reps) - as low as 5 per set. The result - 50% more strength (muscle) built in 8-10 weeks.

It is easy to modify free weight or theraband resistance exercises to the slow method, just go slower. Another key is to go as fast as you need to keep the action moving rather than going in segments. It may take a couple of weeks to slow your motion while keeping it from being jerky.

Start with low weights - even if you have been doing weight lifting exercises. See the difference that going slow produces - you will feel the burn and be amazed that at rep 5 or 8 you just can't lift any more.

Stop then and go on to the next exercise in your routine. If you want to repeat each exercise for a second set, do so, although it is not thought to be necessary because in the first set you exercised your muscles to fatigue, which then induces them to build more muscle."

 

[repmks]

i get the best results from just moving the weight and keeping the form strict as possible while still being able to move the weight.

 

[Johnny Smiles]

Contract the muscle to move the weight

I am a bodybuilder with the goal of obtaining as much muscle size as possible. moving the weight from A to B is somewhat coincidental. i focus on contracting the muscle while doing basic lifts (ie. dips, squat, pull ups, bent rows, etc.)
many powerlifters "move the weight" and they look like powerlifters. NOT how i wanna look.
by contracting the given muscle and progressively getting stronger in the basic lifts i get best results in gaining size. -JS

 

[halflife]

I took the following (cut and paste) from an article about maximizing hypertropy. I don't have a list of the sources cited for this article but I'm positive that the sources cited were from collegiate atheletics researchers at various universities. This is not from a muscle mag.

Note how very similiar their recommendation is to that of Big A's in his article on the basics of how to grow.


"Researchers are finding that a simple change in weight training technique can have dramatic effects in building muscle. Instead of lifting a weight for 5 or 7 seconds, lift it steadily in a 10 to 14 second movement, then down in 5 to 10 seconds.

The difference is that the muscles are exhausted - brought to momentary muscle failure - in fewer repetitions (reps) - as low as 5 per set. The result - 50% more strength (muscle) built in 8-10 weeks.

It is easy to modify free weight or theraband resistance exercises to the slow method, just go slower. Another key is to go as fast as you need to keep the action moving rather than going in segments. It may take a couple of weeks to slow your motion while keeping it from being jerky.

Start with low weights - even if you have been doing weight lifting exercises. See the difference that going slow produces - you will feel the burn and be amazed that at rep 5 or 8 you just can't lift any more.

Stop then and go on to the next exercise in your routine. If you want to repeat each exercise for a second set, do so, although it is not thought to be necessary because in the first set you exercised your muscles to fatigue, which then induces them to build more muscle."

Force equals mass times acceleration, so as the speed of your lift goes up, the force of your lift goes up. There's no way you can produce more force by slowing down a lift (unless your muscles are giving 100% to lift the weight fast, even though the bar isn't moving fast- which going purposely lifting slow you won't be pushing 100% for acceleration). The higher the force the more motor units recruited, the greater the force you'll be able to produce - which increases growth stimulus. This is refers to concentric movement.

The most effective seems to be controlled eccentric 3/4 of way down (while contracting muscles against weight) then speed up at the last 1/4 to get an elastic stretch to assist the acceleration for the concentric phase. This will recruit the HTMU for muscle hypertrophy.

And yes TUT can be a factor, but that's why we have a cool thing called repetitions.