Oh man, I think I am still not articulating my thoughts very well. lol
Mikeman here is an example of my feelings about cardio:
When you get into your prep and you are doing cardio and let's say the weight is falling too quickly. You add calories but it only slows down the drops slightly. You are already at the point that you can BARELY choke down the calories that you have so more is going to be next to impossible. Here is where I would drop the cardio all together for even as little as a couple days and see how the body reacts. First, chances are very good that your leg sessions are going to improve, and again, the less work you are doing, the less chance of overtraining.
Another example and I will use a client that I won't mention his name:
Whiling running clen 2 weeks on and 2 weeks off, withOUT cardio, calories have to start jumping by a couple hundred every day after starting the 2 week period of clen until they top out around an extra 600-800 calories over what was being taken in while off the clen. Doing cardio at that point would cause another added amount of calories that would have this guy to the point that he would be looking like Ronnie in the gut from the volume of food ingested. In his case, cardio was used but only as needed during the off clen weeks (and it was very little cardio - maybe 4 sessions in a 2 week period). This was also a lightheavy and his calories were usually in the 2800-3200 range without clen and closer to 4000 while on the clen. T3 use was very moderate and no GH was being run and no other added extras like yohimbe or any shit like that.
Mike, I think you said that you have seen so many guys overdieted from lack of protein but I have seen PLENTY that were overdieted and were doing massive amounts of cardio. My entire point to this debate about cardio from the beginning was to have guys, especially the first time competitors, not rely on cardio and get caught up in it being their save all, end all. The diet itself can control much more of the metabolism than most think it can.
Please know, too, that I very much respect you, your conditioning, experience and opinions. I am only keeping this going because it is a positive debate that I think most of the members want to see.
Again, I am not saying that cardio is a bad idea but I still stand by limiting it as much as you can "get away" with. In fact, my choice of cardio, when needed, is double stepping the gauntlet. It is a great way to really nail your glutes and hams while doing cardio. Truth and honesty about your condition are paramount and I agree that if I hear one more time that " I was holding a few pounds of water", I am going to puke.
Note to friends and family: Go ahead and fill your friend's head with bullshit after prejudging and into the night show but be big enough to tell them EXACTLY where they stood after the show so that they don't run around at the post-show dinner making asses out of themselves by saying "I was fucking robbed".
Skip
ADD: Why do I always get into these good debates on everyone else's board but my own? *sigh*