anyone NOT have an enlarged heart from years of AAS or large size gain?

[tmuscle]

Ok let's put it in simple terms.

If you were built to be 125 lbs at 12% at 5'9" naturally

But you worked yourself into being 220 10% after years of heavy eating, heavy training, and AAS progression.

Is it possible not to have an enlarged heart? From a physiological viewpoint it does not seem possible unless you did not push the boundaries and your musculature is not far away from your natural limit, which in this case may be 175 lbs at 10% 5'9", hypothetically, due to thin bone structure and such.

 

[yatyas314]

Ok let's put it in simple terms.

If you were built to be 125 lbs at 12% at 5'9" naturally

But you worked yourself into being 220 10% after years of heavy eating, heavy training, and AAS progression.

Is it possible not to have an enlarged heart? From a physiological viewpoint it does not seem possible unless you did not push the boundaries and your musculature is not far away from your natural limit, which in this case may be 175 lbs at 10% 5'9", hypothetically, due to thin bone structure and such.

Well not hypotheitcly speaking ..Got out of my beloved corps at 165 started lifting got to about 200# competed my first show at 184 then went to 240 off season competed at 197# then got to 260 # competed at 218# just had an echogram and my heart is just fine great valves no enlargement ....Everything is gtg ...Guess it depends on genetics and how you use drugs

Y

 

[tmuscle]

Well not hypotheitcly speaking ..Got out of my beloved corps at 165 started lifting got to about 200# competed my first show at 184 then went to 240 off season competed at 197# then got to 260 # competed at 218# just had an echogram and my heart is just fine great valves no enlargement ....Everything is gtg ...Guess it depends on genetics and how you use drugs

Y

do you mind sharing your age, ethnicity, body type (ecto/endo), and gear history(though i don't mind if you don't on this one since it is very private)?


i find it amazing how gear grows every single muscle in the body except the heart, a puzzle that still hasn't been proven (to my knowledge) in medical literature


and it seems like some get it, some don't...

 

[718si]

Anabolic androgenic steroids produce do - PubMed Mobile

Anabolic androgenic steroids produce dose-dependant increase in left ventricular mass in power atheletes, and this effect is potentiated by concomitant use of growth hormone.

Karila TA, et al. Show all

Int J Sports Med. 2003 Jul;24(5):337-43.

Laboratory of Substance Abuse, National Public Health Institute, Helsinki, Finland. [email protected]

Abstract Power athletes abuse anabolic androgenic steroids (AASs) and growth hormone (GH) to gain their muscular mass and strength. We wanted to determine how massive, self-administered doses of AASs with or without GH affect the left ventricular (LV) dimensions in power athletes. These substances are assumed to increase LVmass mainly by thickening the ventricular walls. Anecdotal evidence suggests a higher risk of cardiovascular events in AAS abusers. We were interested to see if LV dimensions and function in AAS abusers would indicate this increased risk. Twenty healthy male power athletes using massive doses of AAS without (n = 16) or with (n = 4) GH volunteered for the study. The controls were 15 sedentary male non-users of hormones. LV mass, geometry and filling were studied using standard echocardiographic methods. We found a significant association between LV mass and AAS dose (r = 0.54, p < 0.015). In contrast to the controls, LV mass (274 g in the athletes, 167 g in the controls) among the AAS abusers did not correlate with body weight or height. Concomitant use of AAS and GH further increased LV mass and associated with concentric remodelling of LV. Multiple regression analysis indicated that the mean AAS dose accounted for 29 %, age for 14 % and systolic blood pressure for 17 % of the variance in LV mass. We concluded that AAS abuse associates dose-dependently with myocardial hypertrophy and that concomitant use of GH associates with concentric remodelling of the LV. Our findings suggest that AASs and GH have a direct effect on the myocardium.

PMID 12868044 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

 

[718si]

Does Q10 offer strength athletes cardiac protection?

Athletes who do strength sports develop an enlarged heart. This is not a problem in itself, but when combined with anabolic substances this enlargement can result in a fatal abnormality. Taking a Q10 co-enzyme supplement may offer protection, if the results of studies published by American cardiologists in the 1990s are anything to go by.

Doing strength sports can cause an enlargement of the left ventricle in the heart. The muscles in this ventricle – in the septal wall and the posterior wall to be precise – that it leads to a reduction in the amount of blood that the ventricle can pump round the body.

Cardiologists observe this phenomenon primarily in people with high blood pressure, but occasionally chemical strength athletes also develop a dangerous form of left ventricular hypertrophy.

According to a 2003 Finnish study, it's steroids users who also make long-term use of growth hormone that should be worried. [Int J Sports Med 2003; 24: 337-343.] The amount of blood that the heart is capable of pumping round the body can reach dangerously low levels in this group.

The American cardiologist Per Langsjoen has been publishing articles regularly since the 1980s on the cardiological effects of Q10. In the 1990s Langsjoen focused on people – not strength athletes –with an enlarged left ventricle. We dug up a small study that he did in 1997, in which he got seven patients to take an average of 200 mg Q10 every day for 3-48 months.

Q10 [chemical formula shown here] is a molecular thumbtack, which functions as a distribution centre for electrons. If the cell pushes enough of these into the mitochondria membranes, they can generate energy faster and cells take longer to reach the point of exhaustion.

Left ventricular hypertrophy is believed to be caused by heart cells becoming chronically fatigued. Langsjoen reasoned that heart cell vitality could be restored through supplementation aimed at reducing the negative effects of left ventricular hypertrophy.

And hey presto: the table below shows that the subjects' septal wall thickness [SWT] and the posterior wall thickness [PWT] decreased.

EF slope, LVEDD and FS are cardiological variables which indicate how well the heart is pumping blood. The results show an improvement, but it's not statistically significant. Nevertheless, the patients had less chest pain, were less tired and less short of breath.

"These highly encouraging clinical and echocardiographic findings in hypertrophic cardiomyopathy are in keeping with the working hypothesis that CoQl0 has a beneficial effect on myocardial bioenergetics and ATP production", the researchers conclude.

In 1999 Australian cardiologists published the results of a study which showed that Q10 supplementation had no effect on the left ventricle of patients. [J Am Coll Cardiol. 1999 May; 33(6): 1549-52.] They used a lower dose than the Americans.

Source: Mol Aspects Med. 1997;18 Suppl:S145-51.

Does Q10 offer strength athletes cardiac protection?

 

[718si]

In summary, take your coq10 daily!

 

[thatbloke]

In summary, take your coq10 daily!

any idea where i can get some cheap?

 

[discohornet]

Being an athlete period will cause left ventricular hypertrophy. That's what some of the earlier studies failed to look at. They were doing this analysis on athletes using steroids, and they didn't control for the athlete part.

But if you are concerned about this side effect then quit using steroids.

And if you are going to continue to use steroids then take something that can offset this.

Curcumin is a natural route.


Telmisartan is a pharmaceutical blood pressure drug that has been shown in studies to prevent AND reverse LVH. It has also shown to increase hdl, lower ldl, lower triglycerides, and glucose.

 

[718si]

any idea where i can get some cheap?

True Nutrition | CoQ10 100mg Capsules (100 Capsules)

 

[Userat204]

You can get CoQ10 everywhere. Go to Walmart or online. Ubiquone is a more bioavailiable form supposedly. I take 200-400mg a day. If it says pharmaceutical grade that's just a marketing ploy.

Don't spend a bunch of money on it. Maybe $20 a month.

Also I have had an Echo and Ultrasound, while on a heavy cycle years ago after some good amount of time using. Everything came back great except, I had one valve leaking, it was letting blood back in not leaking out. The doc said it was very common and nothing to be concerned with. I have no family history of heart disease.

The problem is, guys abuse their heart for years and then blame AAS. One very important thing is to keep your BP under control while on cycle. I don't care if you are a guy who only does 8 week cycles. High bp is the cause for most problems we face, including problems with kidneys. Elevated bp for long periods of time is not good. Second you should be concerned about your lipid profile and getting this checked as often as your hormones. And not allowing blood to get too thick.

Supplementation may be enough for most guys.

Red yeast rice: 2400mg a day (supposed to act as a statin)
CoQ10 200-400mg day (antioxidant, will be depleted by RYR or statins, good for cv system)
Hawthorne berry up to 2100mg a day- good for bp
Aspirin 81mg - help prevent clotting of blood
Niacin- nicotinic acid (full flushing) 250mg right before bed with aspirin to avoid flushing, every few weeks to a month increase by 250mg. I'm at 1000mg currently. Good for lipids.
NAC- good for liver, help prevent hcg burnout, antioxidant.
Fish oil, 5-10g a day.

But keep in mind that if you have any bleeding disorders, some of these can make it worse by thinning blood or slowing coagulation or whatever. You should take some type of supplements to prevent high bp and poor lipids. If that means you need to see a doc and be on bp meds or a statin then that's better then just letting it go.

Torem also seems to have a positive effect on lipids along with the SARM GW501516. There are a lot of guys here that don't come off, and run some high doses most of the year. Protect yourself as much as you can. Donate blood to reduce rbc's (hemoglobin/hematocrit) and besides your are helping those in need but don't admit to RC that you use gear or are on TRT/HRT because they now claim it's therapeutic and will refuse you or make you pay, but for those who do need to donate more than the every 56 days allowed, RC has a program that they do therapeutic draws for $42.

I'm not saying AAS/GH/Peptides, and whatever else can't enlarge the heart because I really don't know, I just like to talk a lot so people have to deal with my long post of common info, lol, but seriously spend the same amount of time protecting your health as you put into the sport. I realize there are times limits will be pushed for comp, but the majority of the time you should be able to keep bp and lipids in check.

 

[718si]

If one of the mechanisms behind left ventricular hypertrophy is indeed "exhaustion" of the heart muscle under heavy loads, COP (creatinol phosphate, which is similar to, but not the same as creatine) might be good to supplement as well.

Action of creatinol-O-phosphate on the - PubMed Mobile

Action of creatinol-O-phosphate on the contractility changes evoked by hypoxia and ischemia in rat isolated heart.

Godfraind T, et al. Show all

Arzneimittelforschung. 1984;34(9):968-72.

Abstract The effect of creatinol-O-phosphate (N-methyl-N-(beta-hydroxyethyl)guanidine O-phosphate, creatinolfosfate, Aplodan) pretreatment has been studied on the recovery of contractility of rat isolated heart after hypoxia or ischemia. In normoxia creatinol-O-phosphate (100 mumol/l) evoked a positive inotropic effect only when glucose was present in the physiological solution, it also evoked a slight negative chronotropic effect that was independent of glucose. When creatinol-O-phosphate was present during hypoxia, in the physiological solution, the recovery of the contraction after reoxygenation (in the absence of the drug) was improved in a dose-dependent manner. When creatinol-O-phosphate was present in the physiological solution before ischemia, the recovery of the contractility after reperfusion was higher than in controls; the presence of creatinol-O-phosphate during reperfusion after ischemia accelerated the recovery of contractility. The action of creatinol-O-phosphate on the recovery of cardiac contractility after ischemia was also observed in hearts partially protected with a cardioplegic solution. It is suggested that creatinol-O-phosphate could exert its cardioprotective effect by an action on anaerobic glycolysis.

PMID 6542374 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

 

[bananas007]

Ok let's put it in simple terms.

If you were built to be 125 lbs at 12% at 5'9" naturally

But you worked yourself into being 220 10% after years of heavy eating, heavy training, and AAS progression.

Is it possible not to have an enlarged heart? From a physiological viewpoint it does not seem possible unless you did not push the boundaries and your musculature is not far away from your natural limit, which in this case may be 175 lbs at 10% 5'9", hypothetically, due to thin bone structure and such.

I think your heart would enlarge if u go from 125 to 225 regardless of AAS. But there is difference between physiological enlargement, that a lot of athletes have such as marathon runners, and pathological enlargement which is where you run into troubles like arrythmias and ischemias.
Enalrgement is good to a certain extent, cause it makes the pump stronger to circulate blood to a much bigger body.

 

[AlphaMaleDawg]

thread bookmarked

 

[Zomb131]

Mine's enlarged. Cunt VA doc tried to tell be bodybuilding will kill me like all the professional athletes out there; specifically football players. THIS took away her credibility and ended up laughing at her.

 

[Ehren]

Yep, I went from a weight of about 145lbs to cca 275 over 8 years (beginning of high school to end of Uni.) I've had a faster heart rate since reaching about 225. I believe years of PL/Oly Lifting/Track and Field strength events enlarged my heart, before ever using AAS (Started AAS in my 30's). I now hover around 225 and feel much better, but heart is still bigger and heart rate still faster.

The doc here in Europe told me not to worry about it. She said all strength athletes have enlarged hearts. I asked her if it would be a problem and she said, "No, only if you ever stop training". So, guess I'm in for life....

And BTW, my BP is always steady around 120/75. Dunno if it's relevant.

Point is, even gaining a a lot of weight or lifting heavy for long enough without AAS can give you and enlarged heart.

GREAT info USERAT204 and 718si! Thanks!

**Any info on where to find curcumin in Europe from EU members, please PM me! Ive been looking for weeks and nothing...

 

[Crom]

Yep, I went from a weight of about 145lbs to cca 275 over 8 years (beginning of high school to end of Uni.) I've had a faster heart rate since reaching about 225. I believe years of PL/Oly Lifting/Track and Field strength events enlarged my heart, before ever using AAS (Started AAS in my 30's). I now hover around 225 and feel much better, but heart is still bigger and heart rate still faster.

The doc here in Europe told me not to worry about it. She said all strength athletes have enlarged hearts. I asked her if it would be a problem and she said, "No, only if you ever stop training". So, guess I'm in for life....

And BTW, my BP is always steady around 120/75. Dunno if it's relevant.

Point is, even gaining a a lot of weight or lifting heavy for long enough without AAS can give you and enlarged heart.

GREAT info USERAT204 and 718si! Thanks!

**Any info on where to find curcumin in Europe from EU members, please PM me! Ive been looking for weeks and nothing...

That's a healthy blood pressure you have there, Ehren. Doesn't sound like your heart has problems but would you mind elaborating on the comment your doc made? What did she mean that an enlarged heart could be problematic if you stopped working out?

 

[yatyas314]

do you mind sharing your age, ethnicity, body type (ecto/endo), and gear history(though i don't mind if you don't on this one since it is very private)?


i find it amazing how gear grows every single muscle in the body except the heart, a puzzle that still hasn't been proven (to my knowledge) in medical literature


and it seems like some get it, some don't...

started at 25 currently 30 endowith ecto tendancys ...European descent ...Gear well I started im sure like every new guy did with some qv T400 lol
Worked my way to mega doses ....and as the years went on i realized that I didnt need all that gear so im a moderate user now I have only been off once in the last 6 years so i guess you could say that I dont Cycle ..A lifting partner of mine is an echogram tech so he hooks me up with free heart diagnostics annually ...The down side to knowing you have a healthy heart and healthy blood work is that it makes you want to really redline your engine so to say ...walk that line between use and abuse ...its a double edged sword IMHO

 

[yatyas314]

I think your heart would enlarge if u go from 125 to 225 regardless of AAS. But there is difference between physiological enlargement, that a lot of athletes have such as marathon runners, and pathological enlargement which is where you run into troubles like arrythmias and ischemias.
Enalrgement is good to a certain extent, cause it makes the pump stronger to circulate blood to a much bigger body.

I am going to have to respectfully Disagree ...Your heart is a muscle and will grow under stress just like your biceps ...So you might think the bigger the pump the better ...But you would be wrong .So the heart muscle enlarges but what doesnot grow along with the heart is the VALVES so you have whats called blow by where the valve used to seal making the heart pump efficent now there is a gap causing the heart to work harder to pump the same volume of blood because there is no seal and the blood that would normally be pushed into the body after the low pressuse side of the lungs is diminished because as the heart contracts the blood goes back both ways Making the heart a less efficent pump .. causing increased heart rate and more stress on the muscle snowballing the effects of enlarged heart

y

 

[osiris]

my heart is enlarged because its do full of love, nothing to do with gear

Sent from my SGH-T989 using Tapatalk 2

 

[Cornelius]

I had an irregular heart beat last year (AFIB) due to pushing my self way too hard(I was doing mountain running with a gas mask on all the while my hematocrit was at 57%) . Any way my left ventrical wall is 14mm which is right at the top of the athletic heart range. The rest of the heart is normal sized. Function is 100% normal no sign of LVH. This is after 6 years of walking around 240-50lb at 5ft8 , deadlifting 700lb for reps on a weekly basis and so on.

I actually take a very low dose ace inhibitor now even though my BP is great. I do this because it helps reverse the LVH.

I am actually thankful I had this scare because I was sick of being so big because it hindered other aspects of life but the appeal of the power/size just kept pulling me back in.