Dat's - CJC-1295 & GHRP-6 (Basic Guides)

DatBtrue said:

First off I used 2.1mgs/week of CJC-1295 for the first 6 weeks of my anabolic cycle, then cut it down to about 700mcgs/week for 4 weeks and now I have ramped back up to 2.1mgs/week.

For me it turned out that there was a big difference between the two dosing schemes. 700mcgs/week contributes for sure but my rate of growth slowed down very much & the slin put a little more fat on. I now perceive my growth rate picking back up at the 2.1mcg dose level.

In specific regard to your question, the nighttime dose is the most important because we grow at night, GH increases sleep, and CJC-1295/GHRP-6 amplifies that big nighttime pulse. If I could only dose once it would be pre-bed.

If I could only dose twice it would be post workout & bed.

If I can dose three times it is morning PWO & pre-bed.

During my low dose 4 week period I dosed only 50mcg with GHRP-6 three times a day.

However those times when I skipped a dose and instead used 100mcg pre-bed gave me deeper sleep (and thus a higher GH pulse than did the 50mcgs).

As far as food intake, dose the CJC-1295/GHRP-6 and wait at least 5 minutes up to 30 minutes to give the body a chance to produce GH before eating (which may blunt GH release). I usually wait 30 minutes.

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Awesome, thank you for your detailed response bro, now I find myself in the dilemma of 5 iu's / day of growth or running the higher end cjc-1295/ghrp-6 cycle. I wonder which of the two would be better on fat loss, as I have a competition coming up soon...planning on hitting up IGF during PCT, then going with one of these for 3-4 months and finishing with the other for the next 3-4 months, then ceasing 10 days out from the show(s)

aces11 said:

Question for all those who are using cjc. I've only injected twice so far, only cjc, and was wondering if this was normal. About 60 seconds after I inject in the morning, I get pretty hot, and my pulse gets going pretty fast, and pretty hard. I can feel it pulsating in my head. Kind of get a headache as well. Is this normal? Kinda worries me. Let me know, thanks!

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I did not notice the pulse rate increasing, but everything else is right. Feels more like pressure in my head than a headache, no pain really. How much are you using? It is worse when I use 2mg than 1mg. It passes pretty fast though, right?

Yeah, it lasts for about 5 minutes or so, then goes away. This first week though, I feel actually weaker then normal. Oh, and my pulse shoots to about 130 from mid 80's.

I've been using 100mcg GHRP-6 + 100mcg CJC-1295 every night for about 18 days now and I haven't noticed jack. Weight is constant and no visible changes. In the last several days I have upped the dose to 2 and now 3 times per day.

misterbigg said:

I've been using 100mcg GHRP-6 + 100mcg CJC-1295 every night for about 18 days now and I haven't noticed jack. Weight is constant and no visible changes. In the last several days I have upped the dose to 2 and now 3 times per day.

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Based off the read, you should be doing 200 3/day of the GHRP6, which is not bad cost wise at all, the 100 3/day of the CJC is a different story though...

Some updates:

I've been using 100mcg cjc+200mcg GHRP6 2x daily 6days per week the past 6weeks or so. I would compare results to a low dose GH cycle. Around 3iu's. Thats what I was using before and switched to this protocol and resluts stayed the same. I'll be going back to GH soon for 3-6months then give the cjc/ghrp6 another run, but go from 1.2mg cjc per week to 2mg per week.

Max32 said:

Based off the read, you should be doing 200 3/day of the GHRP6, which is not bad cost wise at all, the 100 3/day of the CJC is a different story though...

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I will bump the dosage to 200mcg GHRP-6 and 100mcg CJC-1295 three times daily then and see how it goes

On my anabolic cycle I was at 2.1mgs of CJC-1295 + 2.1mgs of GHRP-6 per week for 6 weeks and grew well.

Then I reduced it down to 700mcgs - 1mg per week of CJC-1295 for 4 weeks and growth slowed and the insulin added some fat to my frame.

Moved it back to 2.1mgs of CJC-1295 and for the last week an a half and I am noticing a difference. Primarily the slin no longer adds fat to my frame and I believe the growth rate will resume.

Anyway...just my 2 cents. But from my own subjective use 700mcgs is too low to add a lot to a cycle while 2.1mgs is a bodybuilding dose.

Hey misterbigg bro you are gonna take this the wrong way I know, really I'm just playing, but maybe you should add some caffeine to the injection and that way you can say "WoW!".

Seriously though what are you doing? Are you running testosterone and insulin with the CJC/GHRP-6? How about a low dose of T3? Are you attempting to put on mass?

Did you prime your system by using CJC/GHRP-6 before your anabolic cycle?

Are you attempting to lose weight? Are you using CJC-1295/GHRP-6 by themselves?

Do you expect synthetic growth hormone to make changes in your physique by itself? If not why would you expect CJC-1295/GHRP-6 to do be able to do that?

Again I'm not being flippant at all and please don't take it the wrong way I'm just trying to see how you are using it and what you expect.

When you say "you ain't seen jack" does that mean these peptides have had no effect on your sleep or hunger?

Fill us in bro.

Max32 said:

Awesome, thank you for your detailed response bro, now I find myself in the dilemma of 5 iu's / day of growth or running the higher end cjc-1295/ghrp-6 cycle. I wonder which of the two would be better on fat loss, as I have a competition coming up soon...planning on hitting up IGF during PCT, then going with one of these for 3-4 months and finishing with the other for the next 3-4 months, then ceasing 10 days out from the show(s)

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I stay away from topics like this because I don't compete and I sure ain't gonna give advice on prep.

Lucian had some interesting feedback he posted here: http://www.professionalmuscle.com/forums/showthread.php?t=39014

aces11 said:

Question for all those who are using cjc. I've only injected twice so far, only cjc, and was wondering if this was normal. About 60 seconds after I inject in the morning, I get pretty hot, and my pulse gets going pretty fast, and pretty hard. I can feel it pulsating in my head. Kind of get a headache as well. Is this normal? Kinda worries me. Let me know, thanks!

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Apparently that can happen when you dose a larger amount at once. Also Papapumped over at AM was experiencing up & down blood pressure readings. Hawthorne Berry helped him some.

I don't experience the flush though because I chose to be a pin cushion with smaller more frequent doses.

Im gonna stay on the cjc/ghrp6 for another month and up it to 2.1mgs of cjc this time and see if I notice a diff.

DatBtrue said:

On my anabolic cycle I was at 2.1mgs of CJC-1295 + 2.1mgs of GHRP-6 per week for 6 weeks and grew well.

Then I reduced it down to 700mcgs - 1mg per week of CJC-1295 for 4 weeks and growth slowed and the insulin added some fat to my frame.

Moved it back to 2.1mgs of CJC-1295 and for the last week an a half and I am noticing a difference. Primarily the slin no longer adds fat to my frame and I believe the growth rate will resume.

Anyway...just my 2 cents. But from my own subjective use 700mcgs is too low to add a lot to a cycle while 2.1mgs is a bodybuilding dose.

Hey misterbigg bro you are gonna take this the wrong way I know, really I'm just playing, but maybe you should add some caffeine to the injection and that way you can say "WoW!".

Seriously though what are you doing? Are you running testosterone and insulin with the CJC/GHRP-6? How about a low dose of T3? Are you attempting to put on mass?

Did you prime your system by using CJC/GHRP-6 before your anabolic cycle?

Are you attempting to lose weight? Are you using CJC-1295/GHRP-6 by themselves?

Do you expect synthetic growth hormone to make changes in your physique by itself? If not why would you expect CJC-1295/GHRP-6 to do be able to do that?

Again I'm not being flippant at all and please don't take it the wrong way I'm just trying to see how you are using it and what you expect.

When you say "you ain't seen jack" does that mean these peptides have had no effect on your sleep or hunger?

Fill us in bro.

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No offense taken and these are all very good questions. Let me address them.

Max32 said:

Based off the read, you should be doing 200 3/day of the GHRP6, which is not bad cost wise at all, the 100 3/day of the CJC is a different story though...

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Actually DatBtrue confirmed what I thought, 2.1mg of each per week, comes out to 100mcg of each 3 times daily. Figuring out the dosage from reading the original post and its numerous replies takes a bit of work. A concise "for dummies" post would be helpful

I am not currently running anything with the peptides. All I am doing is tennis practice, fat burning cardio in the boxing gym, hour walks, weights / resistance training in the gym, and abdominal strength routines.

I plan on running test prop, npp, dbol, proviron for 8 weeks to bulk up after I have my exercise and diet schedule in high gear and finely tuned. During the off period I will likely use an anticatabolic and T3 / clen and what not to get my body fat back down (along with reduced calories).

I figured that CJC/GHRP are a 'kinder, gentler' but equally effective form of HGH supplementation so I am going to run it straight through for the next 6 months, looking to get equivalent results as if I were running HGH.

While I am preparing for the cycle I am just running the CJC/GHRP and exercise/diet-wise I am maintaining my current mass and body fat level. Since HGH takes some time to see results, I figured it would be a good idea to "prime my system" ahead of time so the growth hormone stimulation will peak in concert with the cycle.

"I ain't seen jack" pretty much means exactly that, I have not noticed anything, especially with respect to sleep and hunger. In fact I've had a bit tougher time sleeping lately (separate issues).

As far as expectations go, I'm not expecting anything in particular, but I would just like to see or feel SOMETHING. I keep getting this nagging feeling that I bought a bunch of vials of bunk with shady looking labels that got printed on someone's injket in their second bedroom converted to an office.

Maybe its working and I just haven't noticed?

Let me just add that I am not a bodybuilder nor am I looking to compete, my goal is to look like a fitness model / athlete.

DatBtrue said:

Apparently that can happen when you dose a larger amount at once. Also Papapumped over at AM was experiencing up & down blood pressure readings. Hawthorne Berry helped him some.

I don't experience the flush though because I chose to be a pin cushion with smaller more frequent doses.

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Umm...actually now that I think of it, this morning I dosed and went to cardio boxing practice and about 30 to 60 minutes after I got back home, a normally quiet vein in the front side of my head popped out for about 4 inches of its length. It felt like a ridge when i ran my finger over it. I looked like frankenstein. The vein was pulsing, definite signs of elevated blood pressure. Vein is on the right side btw not sure if that is meaningful.

I was a bit paniced that it would not subside but it went away after a little while.

Signs the stuff is working?

fourthgen said:

Some updates:

I've been using 100mcg cjc+200mcg GHRP6 2x daily 6days per week the past 6weeks or so. I would compare results to a low dose GH cycle. Around 3iu's. Thats what I was using before and switched to this protocol and resluts stayed the same. I'll be going back to GH soon for 3-6months then give the cjc/ghrp6 another run, but go from 1.2mg cjc per week to 2mg per week.

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One thing that low dose insulin does is it resensitizes one of the signaling pathways responsible for growth.

When growth hormone binds to a receptor it triggers the activation of 5 or six signaling pathways. The primary pathway for growth is Stat5b which also is the pathway for IGF-1 synthesis. Stat5b translocates to the cell nucleus where it promotes cellular proliferation. This pathway is resentisized by the absence of GH for 2.5 hours.

However a modulating growth pathway ERK is not resensitized by the trough of a GH pulse. But insulin made available during trough periods does resensitize this important growth modulating pathway.

In addition insulin plays a role in resensitizing, while GH desensitizes akt a component in the IGF-1 signal chain that is necessary for skeletal muscle hypertrophy.

The point is that GH & insulin combined is a lot more anabolic then GH alone and if the goal is muscle mass then one should not expect to gain as much when they fail to take steps to optimize the intracellular signaling pathways or fail to understand that GH, IGF-1 & Insulin are all integral, w/ significant signaling cross-talk, to hypertrophy.

misterbigg said:

Umm...actually now that I think of it, this morning I dosed and went to cardio boxing practice and about 30 to 60 minutes after I got back home, a normally quiet vein in the front side of my head popped out for about 4 inches of its length. It felt like a ridge when i ran my finger over it. I looked like frankenstein. The vein was pulsing, definite signs of elevated blood pressure. Vein is on the right side btw not sure if that is meaningful.

I was a bit paniced that it would not subside but it went away after a little while.

Signs the stuff is working?

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Signs that something is happening.

One thing I worry about is that some Chinese facilities are passing off GHRH w/ a few modified aminos but w/o the drug affinity complex as CJC-1295.

This is NOT CJC-1295 but really just plain GHRH w/ a short half-life measured in minutes.

Real CJC-1295 requires that the drug affinity complex be attached. This DAC is responsible for the hormone binding to albumin in plasma which results in a long half-life measured in days. It is more expensive to make this.

Is this kind of bullshit finding its way into the retail level? I don't know.

misterbigg said:

No offense taken and these are all very good questions. Let me address them....

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Okay bro thanks for not being offended. You DO know what you are doing.

I didn't mean to assume you didn't but when I get questions in PMs like "will this CJC stuff help me with cocaine addiction" or "do you think I can gain 30 pounds of muscle in six weeks w/ just the GHRP-6 cus the CJC is too expensive and I don't want to use steroids..." well I have to make sure.

Sorry about that... I do remember you now and yep you know what you are doing.

Are you getting crazy dreams or deeper sleep? That is a primary sign that it is working.

DatBtrue said:

Are you getting crazy dreams or deeper sleep? That is a primary sign that it is working.

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Actually my sleep not so good...for unrelated reasons; I am a sufferer of existential depression.

One of the things I need to resolve pre-cycle.

I might have been having more vivid dreams lately. I don't remember the details though.

How can I test my peptides?

Wow Dat, I know you have heard from the others, but what a wealth of knowledge shared.

So from a research stand point a test subject for BB purposes, what do you think would gains be yielded from a CJC/GHRP protocal such as yours {2.1 and 25.2 per week respectively} along with the use of IGF @ 50 mcgrm PWO and a typical insulin regemine.

Hey dat I read that study you posted (pg 10 AM) called:
"GHRP-2, a GHS-R agonist, directly acts on myocytes to attenuate the dexamethasone-induced expressions of muscle-specific ubiquitin ligases, Atrogin-1 and MuRF1, Daisuke Yamamoto, et al., Life Sciences 82 (2008) 460–466"

Is there any way you could break this down into us simple people language? I really do not understand " Atrogin-1 and MuRF1 mRNA" but it seems like GHRP-2 and 6 may be more different than one just not causing hunger. Thanks.

Force245 said:

...what do you think would gains be ...

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I'd rather not do that. Instead I'll give you some thoughts:

The quality of synthetic GH & CJC-1295 being sold today (10/27/08):

1. CJC-1295 is being wholesaled by some Chinese facilities, but the actual peptide is not CJC-1295, it is a slightly modified GRF(1-29). A significant number of people are using a compound to induce GH release that has a half-life measured in minutes rather than true CJC-1295 which has a half-life measured in days. That will make a big difference in one's results.
   
2. Synthetic GH differs in quality based on the molecular shape. Thermal dynamics can alter the structural shape. This means when the GH molecule binds to the GHR (receptor) it may make less of an impact because the shape is not true. This is likely a reason why there is quality difference between & among Chinese generics and American pharmaceuticals.

GH vs CJC-1295

1. Synthetic GH is a synthetic version of the most prominent natural isoform 22kDa.
2. The GH secreted as a result of CJC-1295 is both the 22kDa form & the 20kDa isoform (both equally anabolic w/ the latter perhaps less diabetegenic)
3. The pituitary is capable of secreting very large amounts of GH (enough to grow a fetus into an adult and an adult into a bodybuilder). GHRH (CJC-1295) is the hormone that causes release. The higher the CJC-1295 dose the higher the amount of "real" GH that is pulsated out.
   • If your CJC-1295 was authentic the GH that is released will be "perfect". Its the stuff that grew you up.
   • Both synthetic & natural GH derived from CJC-1295 are both tools that can be used by bodybuilders. Dosing of either determines GH levels.

How does GH contibute to growth?

1. A GH molecule will bind to a GHR (receptor) primarily in the liver which will then "turn on" several intracellular signaling pathways responsible for growth via activity within the nucleus of the cell. The primary pathway Stat5b is responsible for signaling synthesis of IGF-1, a hormone that plays the most significant role in growth. There are other pathways that contribute to cellular proliferation & such.
2. These signaling pathways desensitize and must be reset in order to initiate new growth signals. Resensitization requires a period of GH absence or GH trough after which the pathway is ready to perform again.
3. The pulsatile nature, the mixture of GH isoforms & their affinity for GH-Binding proteins are primary mechanisms that naturally regulate/optimize the growth signals.
4. CJC-1295 & GHRP-6 act through nature's system and thus optimize the number/magnitude of growth signaling events.
5. Synthetic GH may not optimize these events due to desentisitzation of the pathways. Optimizing synthetic GH use seems to require particular attention to on off dosing & timing in order to permit Stat5b resensitization...

How about IGF-1 levels?

1. There are two types of IGF-1 levels: systemic circulating levels & autocrine/paracrine (i.e. locally produced/locally used).
2. The IGF-1 that is produced in the muscle (which is identical to the systemic IGF-1 produced in the liver) is a greater contributer to & a necessary component of muscle growth. The other muscle IGF-1 is what is known as MGF which is produced after exertion).
3. While some basic level of circulating IGF-1 is needed, high levels are not necessary for muscle growth provided local levels are elevated. Sometimes systemic IGF-1 levels are a good indicator of muscle IGF-1 levels (i.e. if systemic is high local should be as well).
4. Synthetic GH contributes to both elevated GH levels & local levels.
5. Natural GH raises systemic levels but not (it seems) to the same level as synthetic GH however local IGF-1 levels are apt to be as high if not higher with natural GH.
6. These sorts of differences contribute to the differences between synthetic GH activity & natural GH activity.

Is GH effective by itself?

1. Testosterone & likely androgens in general increase autocrine/paracrine action. So if an androgen is used it contributes to the local production and uptake of IGF-1.
2. Testosterone contributes to synthesis of GHR (receptors) & reduces GH-Binding protein
3. Insulin presence between GH pulses helps reset some intracellular signaling pathways.
4. Insulin can contribute to GHR (receptor) synthesis.
5. Hyperinsulinia however can reduce the number of expressed GHRs.
6. etc.

GH, CJC-1295 & Health.

1. It has been reported that natural GH is less diabetegenic then synthetic GH. This is likely owing to the presence of 20kDa isoform in the overall mix. 20kDa has the amino acids resposible for interacting with prolactin missing...
2. CJC-1295 at very high doses could contribute to pituitary hyperplasia because of the expansion of the number of somatotrophs secreting GH. This is reversible and benign however prolonged continuation of this state could contribute to eventual tumor formation.
3. Synthetic GH may chronically elevate IGF-1 systemically. Higher levels of circulating IGF-1 are positively correlated with cancer.
4. No matter what the form, CJC-1295 derived or synthetic GH, the end product hormones of IGF-1 and growth hormone are growth factors which can be used by opportune cancers to metastasize. However it appears that the mechanism for this is more narrow. GHR (receptor) (probably also IGF-1 receptor) translocates to the nucleus of the cell where any little bit of locally made GH will immediately bind to the GHR there and if there is the necessary mutation the proliferation machinery takes off. If the cell has been immortalized it will rapidly metastasize. It has been shown that synthetic GH does not cause the GHR to translocate to the nucleus...vitamin D intake has been shown to reduce this effect in mammary tissue...
   
   Very successful and new anti-cancer experiments are based on GH antagonists & GHRH antagonists designed for affinity with the target tumor cells...