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Dat's - CJC-1295 & GHRP-6 (Basic Guides)

How would one determine this? Just ask the supplier(and believe them)? Ask for a scan of the analysis?

Isn't cjc-1295 legal for non-human use? I mean it's not even scheduled, correct? So, source talks should be ok assuming it's for research purposes...um, what's that 1% source :action-sm?

CJC is legal to posess and research. Just not legal to inject yourself with, so dont do it in front of a cop and your fine :)
 
How would one determine this? Just ask the supplier(and believe them)? Ask for a scan of the analysis?

Isn't cjc-1295 legal for non-human use? I mean it's not even scheduled, correct? So, source talks should be ok assuming it's for research purposes...um, what's that 1% source :action-sm?

Ask them for a CoA or the amino acid sequence of their CJC. Surprisingly enough, most of the sources I've run into, including Chinese sources, will be able to provide a legit CoA. The fact is that the fake CJC sequence has become so common, that even the suppliers don't seem to realize their amino acid sequence is correct (or if they do, they believe it provides the same effect as CJC). I've even come across a few suppliers that say, "This is what we usually sell as CJC and it costs $$, but this is the real CJC with the amino acid sequence you asked for and it would cost $$$$$$$$$$."

I've been doing a lot of research, including contacting legit peptide producing companies in America and China and I can't find CJC anywhere for less than around $20/mg. The less you pay for your CJC, the more likely it is that it's tetrasubstituted GHRH. I can get tetrasubstituted GHRH for so much cheaper than CJC, that I would rather just inject it with my GHRP 3x ED than pay a lot more for CJC b/c I'll be pinning 3x/day regardless of what I have.

If you're interested in real CJC, contact me via PM and I'll give you more info on some places you could look but I don't want to be banned for discussing sources even if they're just research.
 
Dat a small blurb on a site selling Hexarelin said that Hex and GHRP-6 are synergistic and amplify each other--perhaps like CJC/GHRP-6 although CJC was not mentioned and the site doesn't market it. Any comments and could all three be included in the same pin? Also is there any information about relative proportions? Hex at least from this site is far more expensive than GHRP, so if as little Hex is needed for effectiveness as GHRP w/ CJC that would help pocket-wise.

First the term "synergistic". I use it only where it is used in a study. Scientifically they use the term when the values of two compounds are greater then their additive values. In other words 2 + 3 = 10 is "synergy".

Additive value would be 2 + 3 = 5. This means that both substances contribute fully and there is no overlap.

But with synergy the two compounds work together in such a way as to amplify the total effect.

In the literature synergy is rather rare. Sometimes they speculate that synergy is going on. For example:

"GH’s major action is to stimulate protein synthesis. It is at least as powerful as testosterone in this effect and, as they both operate through distinct pathways, their individual effects are additive or possibly even synergistic." - HORMONES AND SPORT: Insulin, growth hormone and sport, P H Sonksen, Journal of Endocrinology (2001) 170, 13–25

Sometimes it is explicitly the focus of the entire study, for example:

"Basal IGF-I production was 5.36 pg IGF-I/micrograms DNA and this was increased 1.31 +/- 0.13-fold (mean +/- S.E.M.) by insulin, 1.90 +/- 0.24-fold by GH and 4.46 +/- 0.68-fold by a combination of insulin and GH.

These results demonstrate that insulin and GH interact synergistically to stimulate IGF-I production in vitro. The synergism with GH occurred at physiological concentrations of insulin with half-maximal stimulation occurring at an insulin concentration of 6 ng/ml." - Insulin and growth hormone act synergistically to stimulate insulin-like growth factor-I production by cultured chicken hepatocytes, Houston B, O'Neill IE, J Endocrinol. 1991 Mar;128(3):389-93

To directly answer your question, while GHRH and GHRPs act synergistically to increase the GH pulse, Hexarelin and GHRPs do not.

GHRP-6 and Hexarelin (as well as GHRP-1, GHRP-2, Ipamorelin and the non-peptide molecules such as MK677) and Ghrelin itself all bind to the "Growth hormone secretagogue receptor" (GHS-R). Ghrelin the native hormone was discovered after these peptides and after the receptor was cloned and named otherwise every thing would be called Ghrelin-mimetics and the Ghrelin Receptor.

There is a maximum amount of GHS-R (receptors) available at any point in time. They can be occupied by any of the peptides named, the smaller molecules as well as Ghrelin. So If I injected everything some receptors would be bound by GHRP-6, some with the experimental GHRP-1, some with the peptide GHRP-6, others with hexarelin, some with the newest peptide Ipamorelin and still others with the small molecules that have high oral bioavailability such as MK-677 and the Ipamorelin derivatives and last but not least Ghrelin.

If you exclude Ghrelin you could mix and match to your hearts content but you will get no synergy. Everything will be additive up to the point where all the receptor slots are full.

So you could use all GHRP-6 or all Hexarelin or half GHRP-6 and half Hexarelin.

Okay I think you get the picture so lets take a fresh look at Hexarelin.

Many of the short-term studies showed that Hexarelin did increase cortisol & prolactin into the high normal range as well as being up to 50% more effacious then GHRP-6 at releasing GH.

Prolactin is a concern because its rise probably means a rise in prolactin binding protein. The prolactin binding protein has a higher attraction to GH then it does to prolactin. So the more of this floating around the more GH gets bound to it leaving less free GH.

Well here is a study, The effect of chronic hexarelin administration on the pituitary–adrenal axis and prolactin, A. Rahim, Clinical Endocrinology (1999) 50, 77–8 that administered a solid dose of Hexarelin (1.5mcgs/kg or 150mcgs in a 100kg man) to humans for 20 weeks and found that at week 16 cortisol and ACTH were actually lower than baseline (before they started) and prolactin was barely higher and of no significance.

"The present study demonstrates that these acute PRL (prolactin) changes are transient and remain so even after long-term hexarelin therapy."​

They also found it virtually side-effect free:

"In the present study subcutaneous administration at a dose of 1.5 mg/kg body weight appeared to be safe with no significant adverse events reported at this dose. An increase in appetite in two subjects was the only long-term adverse event reported and was associated with weight gain."​

Most importantly is is safe for the pituitary:

"In summary, this is the first long-term study using hexarelin in adult subjects and, as such, clearly demonstrates that in this dosage regimen, overstimulation of the pituitary-adrenal axis and prolactin secretion do not occur."​

However by week 16 Hexarelin was less effective then it was earlier. This seems to comport with previous studies that demonstrate desensitization and periodic breaks needed to restore sensitivity.

Note GHRP-6 according to the few long-term studies seems to not desensitize in this manner.

Since Hexarelin is probably about 50% more effacious at GH release then GHRP-6 it seems reasonable that for example 200mcg of hexarelin would effect the same amount of GH release as 300mcg of GHRP-6.
 
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CJC is legal to posess and research. Just not legal to inject yourself with, so dont do it in front of a cop and your fine :)

fourthgen overall do u like the cjc/ghrp6 or hgh better? feel free to go into detail:D thanks
 
fourthgen overall do u like the cjc/ghrp6 or hgh better? feel free to go into detail:D thanks

To be %100 honest i'd have to give CJC/GHRP a few more cycles. As of now I think good ol GH is best. BUT I just recenetly bumped my cjc up to 2mg per week opposed to 1.2mg and am noticing a diff. Much fuller and leaner and my diet has been terrible lately. I think using both is best. GH for around 6-8months, then go off for 8-12weeks and use ghrp/cjc then back to GH,etc.. I do however feel that cjc/ghrp6 is being a little too drastically compared to gh. For example, i dont feel that 2mg cjc and normal GHRP6 dosing can compare to 10iu's go of GH daily. I've used 6iu's GH in the past you could tell a diff. If I had to give a comparison, i'd say 2mg cjc per week and 200mcg ghrp6 2x daily is equal to around 4iu's GH daily, which is still pretty damn good.
 
VictorZ06; said:
A little confused about something.

You said..."So if you are at a bodybuilding dose level in your cycle it is wise to not use both CJC-1295 and GH at least in the same 24 hours."

You also said..

"If you can give yourself 12 hours between the synthetic GH (4iu) administration & the CJC/GHRP you will minimize the likelihood/extent of its inhibition on natural GH release at the pituitary."


Well Vic the first "you said" mentioned a dose of 4iu of synthetic externally administered GH (good old reliable 22kDa). If you look at graphs of GH in plasma you will see a 12 hour hump of GH with a tail of lower GH levels. The higher the amount of GH the more pronounced the hump & ensuing tail. Lower doses of GH have a hump a little smaller then 12 hours and the tail may be low enough to not exert any negative feedback on natural GH production.

So 4iu might be just low enough to fall into the latter category which would enable you to effectively use CJC-1295 or just as good modified GRF(1-29)/GHRPs tweleve hours post synthetic GH administration.

The second "you said" was premised on a larger dose of synthetic GH being administered.

VictorZ06; said:
Should one wait 12 or 24 hrs. between CJC/GHRP and GH? Could I go M-F with GH and CJC/GHRP on Sat/Sun? And at what dose since it's only 2X a week instead of 7?

You packed a lot into those few lines didn't you Vic.

People might say that my posts are too long, but that is because I only want to present accurate information as best I can, I want to cite my authority so if someone needs to they can examine it or expand upon it, and hopefully there is enough information that people can make a determination for themselves.

I don't mind telling you what I think, and believe me it constantly evolves but I don't want people getting in the habit of doing something because Dat says.

So in many ways I am not equipped to tell you what you should do. But if I am really pushed on this I going to have to quote Jackson Browne and say this is what you should do:

"...find [yourself] a girl
Who can show you what laughter means
And you'll fill in the missing colors
In each other's paint-by-number dreams
And then you'll put your dark glasses on
And you'll make love until your strength is gone
And when the morning light comes streaming in
You'll get up and do it again
Get it up again"

Okay...Vic I'd probably say run GH for a while and then run CJC-1295 or modified GRF(1-29) + a GHRP for a while. But you want to combine them in the same week.

Then what happens is I try to fashion something based on what you want to do (not necessarily optimal) and later someone will say but hey you told Vic to do this...how come you are now saying do that?

You're scenarios can work. I like the scenario where you use GH 5 days a week better. If you choose that scenario. Then modified GRF(1-29) will work well and not result in waste like CJC-1295. So I'd go with maybe 150mcg of modified GRF(1-29) & say 100-300mcg of whatever GHRP you choose on Friday night. Then on Saturday and Sunday I'd run the same peptides & doses as Friday night three times each of those weekend days (daily total 450mcg modified GRF(1-29) & 300-900mcg of GHRP).
 
To be %100 honest i'd have to give CJC/GHRP a few more cycles. As of now I think good ol GH is best. BUT I just recenetly bumped my cjc up to 2mg per week opposed to 1.2mg and am noticing a diff. Much fuller and leaner and my diet has been terrible lately. I think using both is best. GH for around 6-8months, then go off for 8-12weeks and use ghrp/cjc then back to GH,etc.. I do however feel that cjc/ghrp6 is being a little too drastically compared to gh. For example, i dont feel that 2mg cjc and normal GHRP6 dosing can compare to 10iu's go of GH daily. I've used 6iu's GH in the past you could tell a diff. If I had to give a comparison, i'd say 2mg cjc per week and 200mcg ghrp6 2x daily is equal to around 4iu's GH daily, which is still pretty damn good.

You were using modified GRF(1-29).
 
Dat don't you think something should be stated publicly about how most users aren't really taking CJC and 99% of sites selling CJC-1295 are really selling tetrasubstitutted GHRH?

Sure. But this topic doesn't need to be addressed with pejorative terms such as "fake CJC" or approached as if these events are dire. If given a choice between a bucket of modified GRF(1-29) and a bucket of CJC-1295 for my own use using my protocols I'd choose the modified GRF(1-29).

So let's begin by summarizing.

GH (growth hormone) release is under the control of three hormones. GHRH (growth hormone releasing hormone) induces GH secretion; somatostatin inhibits GH secretion; and Ghrelin (or the mimetics such as GHRP-6) modulate GH release in large part by optimizing the signaling (which means both amount of those on/off hormones & their subsequent influence).

What is GHRH?

It is a peptide that is comprised of either 44 or 40 amino acids. The biologically active portion resides in the first 29 amino acids so the synthetic forms of GHRH are made up of just these 29 amino acids.

Synthetic GHRH is referred to as "growth hormone releasing factor" and is abbreviated as GRF(1-29).

GRF(1-29) is a powerful hormone. It is the form that nature created to induce GH release...it has been optimized by the hidden hand Darwin discovered more than a century ago.

There is absolutely nothing inferior about GRF(1-29) and it is capable of releasing at least as much GH as the long-lasting analog CJC-1295 in a single pulse.

From the CJC-1295 study, Human Growth Hormone-Releasing Factor (hGRF)1–29-Albumin Bioconjugates Activate the GRF Receptor on the Anterior Pituitary in Rats: Identification of CJC-1295 as a Long-Lasting GRF Analog we have the following chart that demonstrates that GRF(1-29) & CJC-1295 both result in comparable GH release.

compare.jpg

If nature loves it so much why don't we just use native GRF(1-29)?

Nature has placed the anterior pituitary in very close proximity to the hypothalamus. Therefore GHRH is secreted from the hypothalamus and really doesn't come in contact with enzymes that can dismantle it because no sooner has it been released than it finds itself bound to a receptor on a somatotroph cell in the pituitary with consequent GH release.

But we don't have that luxury. We inject our form of native GHRH, GRF(1-29) and this enters the bloodstream where it will make its way to the pituitary but along the way it must contend with its primary nemesis, degradation by the plasma enzyme Dipeptidylpeptidase-IV (DPP-IV). This enzyme is quick to act on GRF(1-29)'s primary site of weakness, the link between the second and third amino acid. DPP-IV causes the release of the Tyr-Ala dipeptide fragment generating the inactive GRF(3–29).

It is this action that is responsible for GRF(1-29) having a half-life in plasma of no more then 10 minutes.

grf.jpg
Amino acid structure of GRF(1-29)

What can be done?

The second amino acid in the peptide chain alanine (symbolized as A) can be substituted for the "D" form of alanine (D-alanine) (symbolized by a).

This substitution has the effect of greatly reducing enzymatic cleavage by DPP-IV at the second & third junction.

The result is a modified GRF(1-29) that will survive at least 30 minutes in plasma.

Is this good enough?

Yes it very much is good enough.

"Since GH is released in a pulsatile manner and a higher level of GH is observed between 15 and 30 min after subcutaneous administration of GH-RH analogues, hydrolysis by trypsin-like enzymes could not affect the result of stimulation." - Potent Trypsin-resistant hGH-RH Analogues, JAN IZDEBSKI, J. Peptide Sci. 10: 524–529 (2004)

The analog in the quoted study resisted degradation for 30 minutes. The quote implies that if your analog can last 30 minutes it has tapped out the potential for a single pulse.

Since another pulse won't be generated for about 2.5 - 3 hours analogs that last more than 30 minutes up to 3 hours are not any more beneficial.

Here is the structure of modified GRF(1-29) that is often called CJC-1295 by the Chinese. It is missing the 30th amino acid Lysine linked to a 3-maleimidopropionic acid (MPA) unit (often referred to as the "drug affinity complex (DAC)") but has the 4 amino acid substitutions common to CJC-1295.

These 4 (tetra, from Latin) amino acid substitutions are sometimes called tetrasubstituted. The other amino acid modifications are a glutamine (Gln or Q) at the 8-position, alanine (Ala or A) at the 15-position, and a leucine (Leu or L) at the 27-position.

The alanine at the 8th position enhances bioavailability but the other two amino substitutions are made to enhance the manufacturing process (i.e. create manufacturing stability).

mod-grf.jpg

So what is the difference between modified GRF(1-29) and CJC-1295?

One analogy, to that of steroids is that modified GRF(1-29) is akin to a short-estered GHRH, while CJC-1295 is akin to a long-estered GHRH.

Both are GHRH and both are equally capable of generating a pulse of GH, synergistically even if used in conjunction with the modulating hormone, GHRPs.

CJC-1295 has an added amino acid lysine which links to a drug affinity complex (DAC). When CJC-1295 is administered it binds to albumin in plasma and is able to survive for a longer period of time. Its half-life is measured in days as a result.

cjc.jpg

How can these be administered effectively?

CJC-1295 is convenient in that it could be administered twice a week. However CJC's primary increase in GH comes from elevating the troughs. This may mean that the intracellular signaling pathways of Stat5b and ERK do not see these troughs as "off time". As a consequence they may stay desensitized longer...[TOPICS for another time]

Modified GRF(1-29) can be administered multiple times a day, again in conjunction with a GHRP to affect a GH pulse. Three times a day should provide substantial amounts of GH and trigger autocrine/paracrine IGF-1 & after exercise the splice variant MGF.

What has been happening?

In short Chinese facilities were not equipped to manufacture CJC-1295. It is a complex and costly process. The drug affinity complex must be made outside of a peptide synthesizer and then added into the peptide creation process. CJC-1295 unlike modified GHR(1-29) or the GHRPs (Hexarelin, GHRP-6, GHRP-2, etc.) is not a pure peptide.

For whatever reason these facilities decided to label modified GRF(1-29) as CJC-1295.

It is important to remember that a CoA certificate comes from the same facility that produced the peptide in the first place (even sellers of bulk herbs use the CoA from the original seller). Very rarely does anyone in the supplement business get an independent analysis done on their compound.

So with that being said those who ran modified GRF(1-29) labeled CJC-1295 in accordance with what has become known as Dat's protocol (What a stupid name Dat. Who would ever listen to a Dat anyway?) saw very good benefit. They administered modified GRF(1-29) along with GHRP-6 three times a day. They amplified the largest pulse of the day in males (the night pulse). They had a pulse of GH when they were at their most catabolic (in the morning) which probably carried over into reducing protein degradation while they worked out later and they had a pulse after their workout which increased protein synthesis, worked well with elevated insulin levels (probably from PWO carbs) and skewed nutrient partitioning in favor of muscle anabolism.

Those individuals created 21 GH pulses for the week.

Those that did not use Dat's protocol administered modified GRF(1-29) labeled as CJC-1295 twice a week which gave them 2 GH pulses for the week. Also it is likely that the body could only use a small portion of the 1mg of modified GRF(1-29) administered in a single dose.

The sunny side.

Some of us were either using genuine CJC-1295 or were fooled because the modified GRF(1-29) dosed Dat's way was just THAT good.

For others you now understand that modified GRF(1-29) works well when administered via Dat's protocol. You could even create 4 or 5 pulses if you like.

Furthermore modified GRF(1-29) is a lot less expensive to make and so you SHOULD be able to buy it at reasonable cost.

I have been informed by one such retailer that he plans on carrying this effective but economical package very soon. So that's a good thing...

If you plan on dealing with the wholesalers remember the words of an enraged Wu "Cocksucka!"

To which Al Swearengen would say calmly "yes Wu. Cocksuckers." But we still have to deal with them.
 
Last edited:
After extra info on this if poss Dat !

Lets say i wanted to run

4iu synthetic GH am then CJC/GHRP pre-bed

Could i use GH just the AM of training days so that would be Mon/Tue/Thur/Fri and then use CJC/GHRP combo everyday ?

Also was thinking of dosing my insulin (low dose 4-6iu) with the GH on them 4 days only !

Thats leaves PWO which i thinking of using 50mcg IGF.

Whats your opinion on above i know its not a full CJC/GHRP cycle you are discussing here but would like your input please.

Thanks in advance
PB

Sorry Dat did you miss my Q mate ?

PB
 
Sorry Dat did you miss my Q mate ?

PB

Yep I did...sorry about that. It looks like you have put some thought into it.

You spaced the GH & peptides properly. Low insulin in the morning w/ GH will be great if you use Hum-R and workout maybe 4 - 6 hours later. It will reduce protein degradation while you work out and your muscle bellies will be full of glycogen, plus if you are older it will help you recover.

The GH will still be in the system when you workout so the glucose disposal properties of IGF-1 will be of benefit.

The CJC or modified GRF(1-29) & GHRP-6 will help generate a bigger night pulse and deepen slow wave sleep which will help with recovery.

Looks good.
 
Damn, well only diff is the GRF needs multiple injects per day opposed to cjc right? I was doing the GRF 2x per day since I use ghrp6 2x per day so hopefully that was benefitial.

That is good to know....good feedback I mean. It tells me twice a day dosing for modified GRF(1-29) is too low. Still beneficial for fatloss and anti-aging for sure but not a bodybuilding dose.
 
Yep I did...sorry about that. It looks like you have put some thought into it.

You spaced the GH & peptides properly. Low insulin in the morning w/ GH will be great if you use Hum-R and workout maybe 4 - 6 hours later. It will reduce protein degradation while you work out and your muscle bellies will be full of glycogen, plus if you are older it will help you recover.

The GH will still be in the system when you workout so the glucose disposal properties of IGF-1 will be of benefit.

The CJC or modified GRF(1-29) & GHRP-6 will help generate a bigger night pulse and deepen slow wave sleep which will help with recovery.

Looks good.


Cool.

Well best get stocked up on all bits and start !

Cheers for feedback bro

PB
 
Sure. But this topic doesn't need to be addressed with pejorative terms such as "fake CJC" or approached as if these events are dire. If given a choice between a bucket of modified GRF(1-29) and a bucket of CJC-1295 for my own use using my protocols I'd choose the modified GRF(1-29)... [no need to quote entire thing]

Wow great post <3. Is the supplier planning on selling economical CJC or an economical tetra'dGHRH/GHRP combo?
 
wow, I just read this whole thread and I am amazed at the great info in here.

Thanks a lot Dat, fourthgen, and everyone else contributing...

bd
 
Dat if someone had sermorelin would it not be a better idea to inject it into something like the traps? Sounds like a weird idea, but would this not be the closest injection site to the anterior pituitary or would we have to study the circulatory system (now that I think about it, the veins in the traps might go to the heart or around the body before hitting the brain).
 
That is good to know....good feedback I mean. It tells me twice a day dosing for modified GRF(1-29) is too low. Still beneficial for fatloss and anti-aging for sure but not a bodybuilding dose.

So I prob would have been better off dosing it around 4x per day to get the most outta GRF. To me that doesnt even seem worth it. Too many pokes. I cant believe I got GRF b/c i've used cjc from 2 diff people with same results and these people have very good reps(nobody pm me) I did hear most cjc coming outta china is GRF but I just justified myself lol

Dat, how do you know I was using GRF just from my explanation of better results going from 1.2mg to 2mg per week? Thanks
 
fourthgen; said:
So I prob would have been better off dosing it around 4x per day to get the most outta GRF.

Well 2x per day = 14 pulses for the week
3x per day = 21 pulses for the week

Is it just the 33% difference in frequency that is important or does 3 times a day sufficiently elevate IGF-1 levels (either liver synthesized or locally produced muscle IGF-1 & MGF) where as 2 x a day does not.

Is the timing important? Mechano Growth Factor (MGF) is created in muscle as a result of a weight-lifting workout. Growth Hormone increases expression of MGF. So PWO it seems a GH pulse would be beneficial.


fourthgen; said:
I cant believe I got GRF b/c i've used cjc from 2 diff people with same results and these people have very good reps

The domestic retailers are good people. Something like this is way beyond their control. A retailer who is now out of business with a poor reputation in the end might have carried genuine CJC-1295 (at least at one time). The most honest retailers you'll ever meet likely were effected.

So lets not look to that as our guide.

fourthgen; said:
Dat, how do you know I was using GRF just from my explanation of better results going from 1.2mg to 2mg per week?

Your question is premised on an erronous assumption, namely that I relied solely on your "explanation" in reaching my conclusion. :)

fourthgen; said:

Thank you bro. For some reason everytime I see you around I smile...in a good way.
 
^^^ Uh Oh, seems like I have a little man crush going lol well, now that I prob have the GRF im gonna split it in 4shots per day my last month instead of 2 to get the most outta it.
 
Correct sequence from CoA?

Hey, I got a CoA from a supplier and wanted to double check that the sequence(assuming it's a legit CoA) was for cjc-1295 with the correct amino sequence. I tried comparing to the above picture in this thread, but was doubting myself since I didn't have a symbol key for the letters used. Anyway here is the pic:

2lk49op.jpg


How does it look?
 

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