Dat's - CJC-1295 & GHRP-6 (Basic Guides)

pitbulladams · Dec 19, 2008

Dat
Can i run this past you or have i got it totally wrong ?

If was to use 8iu GH could i split it as 4iu 2x each day ?

Reason is as i cut carbs each day after my 5.00pm meal and train AM, so could i run GH both ways use 4iu GH with insulin at breakfast and then insulin PWO, then my second dose of GH before my first carb fre meal at 8.00pm ?

something like this

4iu GH/Insulin
7.00am Meal 1 (carbs)

Insulin PWO
11.00am PWO drink Meal 2 (carbs)

2.00pm Meal 3 (carbs)

5.00pm Meal 4 (carbs)

4iu GH
8.00pm Meal 5 (no carbs)

11.00pm Meal 6 (no carbs)

2.00am Meal 7 (no carbs)

So carbs GH/Insulin around training and carb intake, then second GH dose in PM in carb schedule free meals.

Or is this just over the top and dosing 8iu GH in one single shot each am will be fine as the GH active lift will continue over from morning till pm when my carbs are dropped ?

PB

Sanctus Umbra · Dec 19, 2008

Dat,
Regarding those charts of the GH study,where the doses administered subcutaneously or intramuscular?

GoneForever · Dec 19, 2008

OK so let me see if I get this right Dat. I plan to use 3-4iu's per day for fatloss, and for fatloss we want to try to avoid having Gh active during high insulin levels. Now, this seems much easier on off days from the gym since you can use lower carbs, but for gym days I see it difficult going a while without insulin high if most meals consist of carbs. So I have a few ?'s if you dont mind. One, if im only going to do 3-4iu's per day and 8iu's is active for 7.5hours then 3-4iu's would only be active for around 3-4hours. So is it even worth splitting the Gh into 2 shots at 1.5-2iu's? And also, is it more important to avoid a shot at the same time as a high carb meal opposed to an hour or so later? Is there a time period, like avoid taking the shot within 30min of the meal? Thanks, im trying to figure out the best way to maximize my protocol if I can only afford 3-4iu's per day.

Amu · Dec 20, 2008

1 - What solute to solvent ratio do you recommend for CJC-1295? What about for the GHRP-6?

2 - What solvent do you recommend for both? Does 0.9%BA 99.1% water sound good?

3 - Can you mix the CJC-1295 and GHRP-6 into a single vial? That way you would only have to use 3 insulin syringes each day instead of 6. Especially if you use Terumo syringes, you'll save money.

4 - Since you're injecting multiple times a day, how do you suggest rotating injection sites?

Bobaslaw · Dec 20, 2008

Amu said:
1 - What solute to solvent ratio do you recommend for CJC-1295? What about for the GHRP-6?

2 - What solvent do you recommend for both? Does 0.9%BA 99.1% water sound good?

3 - Can you mix the CJC-1295 and GHRP-6 into a single vial? That way you would only have to use 3 insulin syringes each day instead of 6. Especially if you use Terumo syringes, you'll save money.

4 - Since you're injecting multiple times a day, how do you suggest rotating injection sites?

I'll give my 2 cents as I'm quite certain of Dat's view on a couple of your questions and I'll give my opinion on the others... Hope you dont mind, Dat

1) There is no rule of thumb as long as there is enough solution to fully dissolve the amount of solute. If you have a sensitivity to the BA in the BW you could use less volume. If you have a problem because the peptide is to concentrated, use more BW.
Many will usually recon a 2mg vial with 1cc.

2) Yes, BW is the best choice and has the exact % of BA that is specified in your description. The BA in the BW will sterilize possible bacteria and pathogens present in the vial. Remember, you are dealing with Research Chems that you should assume were not regulated for sterility and safety as product that came from an FDA approved facility.
Dat had access to some studies and mentioned that .9%BA was capable of fully eradicating bacteria present withing a timeframe of approx 3 days.
Going by this data, it was surmised that reconstituting with BW was the best choice and the longer it was in solution before use, the better the probability of sterility.

3) No, storing different peptides in the same vessel long term is not a good idea. Peptides have different binding affinities and attactions to various amino acids and can possibly cross react, breaking down and/or forming new bonds.
Dat has mentioned this before and advises against doing this. There is no issue drawing 2 different peptides with the same syringe as the exposure won't be long enough to cause potential problems.
You can still use 3 syringes this way, you will just be pinning through aditional stoppers. No biggie, many do it like this with no issue. I have no problems with dulling pins as some make notice of this.

4) Clockwise, Counter-clockwise, diagonally, connect-the-dots.... It's up to you. Your body does have quite a bit of Sub-Q area to cover.

Amu · Dec 20, 2008

Can CJC-1295 and GHRP-6 be stored at room temperature BEFORE reconstitution? How long would they last that way?

Bobaslaw said:
2) Yes, BW is the best choice and has the exact % of BA that is specified in your description. The BA in the BW will sterilize possible bacteria and pathogens present in the vial. Remember, you are dealing with Research Chems that you should assume were not regulated for sterility and safety as product that came from an FDA approved facility.
Dat had access to some studies and mentioned that .9%BA was capable of fully eradicating bacteria present withing a timeframe of approx 3 days.
Going by this data, it was surmised that reconstituting with BW was the best choice and the longer it was in solution before use, the better the probability of sterility.

Can you make the BW? Buy 10 ml BA and add it to 990 ml of water. You'd have to buy DI water though, as I doubt you can use tap water. You could just keep it at room temp in a glass jar for years. 1000ml BW would cover you for 5 years if you reconstitute @ 1mg/ml.

Bobaslaw said:
4) Clockwise, Counter-clockwise, diagonally, connect-the-dots.... It's up to you. Your body does have quite a bit of Sub-Q area to cover.

I've actually read that the abs are the best place as far as sub-q absorption goes. In one study, the bioavailability was double from the abs vs. from the thighs.

Also, is there any benefit in limiting activity right after injection? Or can you do whatever you want (exercise, etc...) if you can bear the pain?

DatBtrue · Dec 20, 2008

pitbulladams said:
If was to use 8iu GH could i split it as 4iu 2x each day ?

Yes. It will stay active for 6 hours at each administration.

pitbulladams said:
Reason is as i cut carbs each day after my 5.00pm meal and train AM, so could i run GH both ways use 4iu GH with insulin at breakfast and then insulin PWO, then my second dose of GH before my first carb fre meal at 8.00pm ?

Yes. That will work well. That will give you two 6 hour elevations w/ sufficient off time to allow the pathways to reset.

The schedule you laid out creates the best of both worlds. Muscle building with fat mobilization in the evening.

I like it. Go with that ...should work well for you.

pitbulladams · Dec 20, 2008

DatBtrue said:
Yes. It will stay active for 6 hours at each administration.

Yes. That will work well. That will give you two 6 hour elevations w/ sufficient off time to allow the pathways to reset.

The schedule you laid out creates the best of both worlds. Muscle building with fat mobilization in the evening.

I like it. Go with that ...should work well for you.

Good
That will be dosed everyday that way but the insulin will only be used on training days so 3 day a week the AM GH dose will be taken with carbs but no insulin, take it thats ok ?

Also plann to add extra fibre (pullium husks) to meal 4 (last carb meal) to make post meal glucose levels stay as low as poss before dropping carbs altogether.

Cheers
PB

DatBtrue · Dec 20, 2008

Sanctus Umbra said:
Dat,
Regarding those charts of the GH study,where the doses administered subcutaneously or intramuscular?

Why don't you tell me?

The citation was easily available in my article.

The name of the study is: Pharmacokinetics and metabolic effects of high-dose growth hormone administration in healthy adult men, Tanaka T, Endocr J. 1999 Aug;46(4):605-12

The abstract is available for free on Pubmed. In the abstract they mention route of administration.

The answer to your question is:

Subcutaneous Injection

Which will lead you to ask about the difference between the two routes of administration.

Which will lead me to say it doesn't much matter. (Given the totality of the studies).

Which will lead you to insist that intramuscular is "better".

So to bolster your position I'll post graphs from a study that supports the view of IM being "better". The Cmax & GH in plasma "Area Under the Curve" were higher for intramuscular then subcutaneous while there was no difference in IGF-1.

Pharmacokinetics and pharmacodynamics of GH: dependence on route and dosage of administration,Alexandra Keller, European Journal of Endocrinology (2007) 156 647–653

By-the-way that is a solid study, the participants were trained athletes (not elite athletes) and it does demonstrate that GH intramuscular results in more GH in plasma. There is nothing wrong with relying on that study and administering GH intramuscular if you choose.

Obviously that particular study kicks the hell out of my statement "that it doesn't much matter".... a position I still maintain...

DatBtrue · Dec 20, 2008

pitbulladams said:
Good
That will be dosed everyday that way but the insulin will only be used on training days so 3 day a week the AM GH dose will be taken with carbs but no insulin, take it thats ok ?

Yes it is.

DatBtrue · Dec 20, 2008

fourthgen said:
So is it even worth splitting the Gh into 2 shots at 1.5-2iu's?

Yes.

fourthgen said:
and also, is it more important to avoid a shot at the same time as a high carb meal opposed to an hour or so later? Is there a time period, like avoid taking the shot within 30min of the meal? Thanks, im trying to figure out the best way to maximize my protocol if I can only afford 3-4iu's per day.

Its not really paint by numbers. You've never pricked your finger tip to measure your blood glucose levels have you?

Not many people have.

Various carbs digest at different rates. They have different impacts on the amount of glucose that ends up in the bloodstream and thus the amount of time insulin stays active to dispose of that glucose.

Pull out your Glycemic Index and you'll discover that green lentils & barley & sprouted grain bread/cereal (such as Ezekiel bread if you live in the U.S.) as well as strawberries & blueberries are low GI (RazorRipped highlighted foods). They have a much smaller impact on the amount of glucose that ends up in blood plasma then high and even moderate GI carbs.

Oatmeal is good for sure and serves a real purpose in my diet BUT it is not a low GI carb. It is moderate GI and this stuff matters.

Get this stuff down first. I'm not a person that can go without carbs much so when I diet I manage my carbs and I make sure that they are all low GI and that the Glycemic load of my meal is low. Pre-workout & post-workout I may use higher GI carbs...

...anyway this is not about me it is about you. I find it hard to believed that on your diet, a diet with meals spaced by 3 hours you can not make one or two of those meals protein/fats.

If you do things correctly an hour after a meal with low GI carbs insulin will no longer be active. So dose the GH then. Two hours later you eat a meal of protein & fats and three hours after that you have a meal with low GI carbs again. That gave you 5 hours right there where insulin wasn't present and if you timed it correctly GH could have been active during that time.

DatBtrue · Dec 20, 2008

I guess Bob tagged me and it is my turn to respond.

Amu; said:
Can CJC-1295 and GHRP-6 be stored at room temperature BEFORE reconstitution? How long would they last that way?

Keep them in an airtight container in the freezer before reconstitution and then in le frigo after you reconstitute.

Here go read my post here: http://www.professionalmuscle.com/forums/showpost.php?p=468197&postcount=209

Amu; said:
Can you make the BW? Buy 10 ml BA and add it to 990 ml of water. You'd have to buy DI water though, as I doubt you can use tap water. You could just keep it at room temp in a glass jar for years. 1000ml BW would cover you for 5 years if you reconstitute @ 1mg/ml.

Don't do that. Read my post in the link above and buy the BW you see in the picture. It is $4.99 for 30ml at Bulknutrition and it isn't homemade (like you might get elsewhere)

Amu; said:
I've actually read that the abs are the best place as far as sub-q absorption goes. In one study, the bioavailability was double from the abs vs. from the thighs.

I hate studies for that kind of thing. They are all over the place.

Amu; said:
Also, is there any benefit in limiting activity right after injection? Or can you do whatever you want (exercise, etc...) if you can bear the pain?

Its not painful. There is no reason to limit your activity after injection of these simple peptides reconstituted in Bacteriostatic Water.

GoneForever · Dec 20, 2008

Dat what about taking a dose before bed? Im only 26, but will that cause any problems or is it not recommened?

Also, if 7.5iu's is active for 8hrs then 2iu's 2x per day would only be active for around 2hrs per shot correct? So I would only need to avoid insulin increase within 2hrs of injection 2x per day?

Amu · Dec 21, 2008

Assuming a bodybuilder is eating several meals a day, how do you suggest timing the doses? I mean there will always be some sort of meal in a bodybuilder's stomach, which will cause an increase in FFA, insulin, etc... I guess you can take a shot first thing in the morning. But everytime after that, all the way until bed, there will be food in the body, and thus probably some FFA too.

How much of a negative impact does food have exactly? For example, if you take 200mcg of CJC and have FFA floating around, would it be like taking 100mcg? Or even less?

DatBtrue · Dec 21, 2008

fourthgen said:
Dat what about taking a dose before bed? Im only 26, but will that cause any problems or is it not recommened?

Thats okay. If you do things right you could lose some fat while you sleep. If you do this though when you wake up go do some low intensity cardio before breakfast.

If you don't want to do this then keep in mind that GH is a better contributor to fatloss when you are at least somewhat active. So during the day when insulin isn't present when activity is higher could be a better option.

fourthgen; said:
Also, if 7.5iu's is active for 8hrs then 2iu's 2x per day would only be active for around 2hrs per shot correct? So I would only need to avoid insulin increase within 2hrs of injection 2x per day?

Your math is correct but your premise is flawed. 7.5ius is active for 12 hours. So 2ius is active for 3 hours.

You were just trying to trip me up I know ...see if Dat is really paying attention...

DatBtrue · Dec 21, 2008

Amu said:
Assuming a bodybuilder is eating several meals a day, how do you suggest timing the doses? I mean there will always be some sort of meal in a bodybuilder's stomach, which will cause an increase in FFA, insulin, etc... I guess you can take a shot first thing in the morning. But everytime after that, all the way until bed, there will be food in the body, and thus probably some FFA too.

How much of a negative impact does food have exactly? For example, if you take 200mcg of CJC and have FFA floating around, would it be like taking 100mcg? Or even less?

We were discussing use of GH to maximize fat loss. That is entirely different then attempting to use it to maximize tissue gain.

The former requires the lack of insulin. The latter demands the presence of insulin.

As for CJC-1295 (aka GHRH) concurrent intake of fats negates GH release. GHRP-6 however is not fully effected by concurrent intake of fats. Thats why you would administer these peptides 20-30 minutes BEFORE a meal.

Probably a quick read through this thread will more fully answer most of the questions you are asking.

GoneForever · Dec 21, 2008

DatBtrue said:
Thats okay. If you do things right you could lose some fat while you sleep. If you do this though when you wake up go do some low intensity cardio before breakfast.

If you don't want to do this then keep in mind that GH is a better contributor to fatloss when you are at least somewhat active. So during the day when insulin isn't present when activity is higher could be a better option.

Your math is correct but your premise is flawed. 7.5ius is active for 12 hours. So 2ius is active for 3 hours.

You were just trying to trip me up I know ...see if Dat is really paying attention...

LOL my bad, 3hrs. So my goal would be to try and have the lowest insulin levels possible for (2) 3hr periods of the day. Since the majority of my meals have carbs except pre-bed i'd want to take the GH maybe an hour after a low GI meal and make sure the next meal(if within 3hrs is low GI as well). And my 2nd shot can be with my pre-bed meal of just fat/protein. So, there will be no negative impact of my natural GH levels if taken before bed?

Also im gonna load up on fiber with whatever meal I take the GH nearst to. Like maybe 10grams from metamucil or something.

NorthOf60 · Dec 21, 2008

Wow long but really good thread to read. Thanks for the info.

GoneForever · Dec 21, 2008

Here's a good GI chart
http://www.southbeach-diet-plan.com/glycemicfoodchart.htm

Im glad milk is a low GI b/c I have ff or raw whole milk with breakfast which is a time when im gonna need to take GH. I also have a banana but even though is low GI I may switch it up for an apple or some cherries since they are even lower. And add a ton of fiber.

Im suprised how low some foods GI is. Like pasta and instant rice

DatBtrue · Dec 21, 2008

fourthgen; said:
So, there will be no negative impact of my natural GH levels if taken before bed?

Of course there will.

In the long-term ...no your natural levels will be restored quickly even if you are on GH therapy for many years.

In the very short-term...synthetic GH use trumps natural release. Now 2ius before bed will provide more GH then would have occurred naturally.

Also the mere fact that you use some GH during the day will inhibit or reduce THAT nights GH release anyway.