Do you believe tren causes heart disease?

[maldorf]

I think we both know a guy in particular from another board that was a big big Tren fan that ended up with a heart transplant.

It was one of my favorites too, but I never ran more than maybe 400 mg/wk. It has been over 10 years now, I don't remember for sure but somewhere around that.

 

[Ashop]

I think its all about use versus abuse. Something you wouldn't want to stay on too long or do too many cycles per year with. I think anything in excess could potentially be a problem.

 

[aphextwin]

If someone has been running 2 g's of Tren of several years straight, I'd say the heart isn't gonna look all that great. I wouldn't recommend it to anyone, but dudes are gonna still do it year round

 

[Vlad The Impaler]

Is there anyway to have normal BP on tren?

Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk

 

[pickapeck]

Is there anyway to have normal BP on tren?

Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk

BP meds prescription. Lirpinisil, Telmisartan, Losartan.. are a few.

 

[maldorf]

even if you keep down the BP to a normal level, you still have other negative effects on the heart. This goes for most steroids. The steroids affect the metabolism of the cardiac muscle cells and lead to abnormalities. Controlling BP certainly is one thing that must be done though, and not hard to do. The other negative side effects on the metabolism Im not so sure can be controlled.

 

[Vlad The Impaler]

BP meds prescription. Lirpinisil, Telmisartan, Losartan.. are a few.

I already do that, still not great BP numbers.

Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk

 

[MyNameIsJeff]

I already do that, still not great BP numbers.

Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk

You'll need a beta blocker to counteract tren's effects on BP.

 

[pickapeck]

I already do that, still not great BP numbers.

Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk

That's rough. Beta blockers suck since they can kill your cardio. Maybe increase the dose a bit on the other BP meds. Maybe best to get with a doc that can help you out. I know it's tough to find one that is willing to know what we do and help you stay healthy while doing it.

 

[Gambel]

I already do that, still not great BP numbers.

Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk

Are you just taking an ACE/ARB? If so, then add 25 mg Hydrochlorothiazide a day. If it is still high, you can try adding a calcium channel blocker at low dose (eg, amlodipine). Also, 5+ mg Cialis a day will also help lower your BP.

 

[MyNameIsJeff]

Are you just taking an ACE/ARB? If so, then add 25 mg Hydrochlorothiazide a day. If it is still high, you can try adding a calcium channel blocker at low dose (eg, amlodipine). Also, 5+ mg Cialis a day will also help lower your BP.

You really think that someone whose BP is elevated from tren needs a diuretic?

 

[MyNameIsJeff]

That's rough. Beta blockers suck since they can kill your cardio. Maybe increase the dose a bit on the other BP meds. Maybe best to get with a doc that can help you out. I know it's tough to find one that is willing to know what we do and help you stay healthy while doing it.

If they are appropriately dosed, they do not. Especially the 3rd generation beta blockers preserve exercise capacity.

ARB/ACEi + Betablocker is the treatment of choice for AAS induced hypertension. This has been discussed here numerous times.

 

[Vlad The Impaler]

You'll need a beta blocker to counteract tren's effects on BP.

I've tried metoprolol , honestly I think it makes my BP worse

Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk

 

[Gambel]

You really think that someone whose BP is elevated from tren needs a diuretic?

LOL! I don’t think he needs the Tren. I was just offering options for appropriate management of high BP if he remains on the Tren. This is based on my clinical experience and having seen it work effectively in comparable patients. A low dose thiazides diuretic is going to be more effective in reducing his BP with limited risk versus some of the other suggestions in this thread. This is pro muscle and if there is a nephrologist on here that disagrees with me, I’d love to hear their rationale.

 

[MyNameIsJeff]

LOL! I don’t think he needs the Tren. I was just offering options for appropriate management of high BP if he remains on the Tren. This is based on my clinical experience and having seen it work effectively in comparable patients. A low dose thiazides diuretic is going to be more effective in reducing his BP with limited risk versus some of the other suggestions in this thread. This is pro muscle and if there is a nephrologist on here that disagrees with me, I’d love to hear their rationale.

You regularly encounter tren users in your clinical practice and have tried various BP meds on them?

Yes, in some places, thiazide diuretics are still the preferred first-line treatment in your average hypertensive patient. Tren using bodybuilders are not your average patient and the underlying cause of their hypertension is very different. Consequently, the treatment approach needs to be adjusted.

In addition to the questionable efficacy of thiazides in AAS abusing bodybuilders, there are serious side effects. Chiefly among them is renal injury due to long-term diuretic use. AAS abusing bodybuilders are already extremely prone to kidney damage (see http://www.professionalmuscle.com/f...6855-maintaining-kidney-health-while-aas.html), so thiazides may well push them over the edge into kidney failure. Then there's thiazides causing hyperlipidemia and worsening insulin resistance, lowering exercise performance, etc. See for a discussion of the side efects: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2903051/

Thiazides are not a good drug to take, in particular for bodybuilders. Luckily, treatment guidelines in some countries have already removed them as the recommended first-line treatment. In any case, you should practice evidence-based medicine and thus base your treatment choice on the scientific evidence and not on your clinical experience (i.e. anecdotal evidence). Then you would maybe understand that ARBs + 3rd gen beta blockers are not only more effective, but also vastly less risky.

 

[Gambel]

You regularly encounter tren users in your clinical practice and have tried various BP meds on them?

Yes, in some places, thiazide diuretics are still the preferred first-line treatment in your average hypertensive patient. Tren using bodybuilders are not your average patient and the underlying cause of their hypertension is very different. Consequently, the treatment approach needs to be adjusted.

In addition to the questionable efficacy of thiazides in AAS abusing bodybuilders, there are serious side effects. Chiefly among them is renal injury due to long-term diuretic use. AAS abusing bodybuilders are already extremely prone to kidney damage (see http://www.professionalmuscle.com/f...6855-maintaining-kidney-health-while-aas.html), so thiazides may well push them over the edge into kidney failure. Then there's thiazides causing hyperlipidemia and worsening insulin resistance, lowering exercise performance, etc. See for a discussion of the side efects: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2903051/

Thiazides are not a good drug to take, in particular for bodybuilders. Luckily, treatment guidelines in some countries have already removed them as the recommended first-line treatment. In any case, you should practice evidence-based medicine and thus base your treatment choice on the scientific evidence and not on your clinical experience (i.e. anecdotal evidence). Then you would maybe understand that ARBs + 3rd gen beta blockers are not only more effective, but also vastly less risky.

Not disagreeing on the 3rd gen betablocker’s efficacy, the issue is adherence. Your selective mix of broscience and evidence based medicine is entertaining. I’ll let you get back to your Up-to-Date subscription and copying content off the internet (eg, IgA nephropathy write up) and wait for an actual nephrologist to comment on the risks of low dose thiazide use in AAS users.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[MyNameIsJeff]

Not disagreeing on the 3rd gen betablocker’s efficacy, the issue is adherence. Your selective mix of broscience and evidence based medicine is entertaining. I’ll let you get back to your Up-to-Date subscription and copying content off the internet (eg, IgA nephropathy write up) and wait for an actual nephrologist to comment on the risks of low dose thiazide use in AAS users.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Good. Clearly you lack the intelligence necessary to understand and draw conclusions from the scientific literature yourself.

 

[warriordogx]

My blood pressure was elevated while on tren.

 

[blkhrt_jordan]

Good. Clearly you lack the intelligence necessary to understand and draw conclusions from the scientific literature yourself.

So you reccomend combing arb with beta blocker?

obviously i will do my own due dilligence, but do you think combining telmisartan and nebivolol is safe?

 

[MyNameIsJeff]

So you reccomend combing arb with beta blocker?

obviously i will do my own due dilligence, but do you think combining telmisartan and nebivolol is safe?

That's what I'm taking. Obviously you need to check your BP to find the right dosage of both to get to your target. A good starting point is 40mg Telmisartan and 5 mg Nebivolol. Perfectly safe assuming you don't have preexisting conditions such as bradycardia, some forms of arrythmia, compromised kidney function, hyperkalemia, etc. Certainly safer than the alternatives like thiazides. Still, it's always advisable to take the stuff under doctor's supervision. Just gotta find one who doesn't have his head up his ass.