Nandrolone increases the Estrogenic Potency of Testosterone

[Type-IIx]

yes, so nandrolone does increase estrogenic potency of T. This can explain why older bodybuilders did not combine Test and Nand.

Combining the two increases Prolactin as well, which leads to even more side effects. all in all the combination of the 2 don't seem favorable - not to say this combination isn't highly anabolic.

I think the combination is favorable to support sexual function and the two should be combined more often than not, but always with the use of an AI and potentially also a SERM.

 

[gains4000]

I think the combination is favorable to support sexual function and the two should be combined more often than not, but always with the use of an AI and potentially also a SERM.

Yes, but nandrolone competes for 5AR and converts to DHN. i ran 750 T / 500 NPP and was taking AI - bloods showed crashed e2 and prl, yet i was still growing gyno.

my doctor told me Nandrolone was causing low dht conversion thus creating a poor androgen; estrogen ratio. Proviron or DHT would offset dhn anti androgen activity. Masteron / proviron would be superior to ai or serm imo. its not like nolvadex is side free - makes you feel awful.

 

[gains4000]

Prolactin increase is the result of the enhanced estrogenic activity. Tren and deca do not increase prolactin per se, they do this through estrogens (more aromatization of test? Sensitizing recepetors? Who knows), which disrupt dopaminergic signalling between hypotalamus and pituitary gland, leading to prolactin release.
With nandrolone this effect is more pronounced, because nandrolone convertsi into DHN through 5 alpha reductase, which has anti-androgenic activity and competes with the DHT for the AR and ER binding.
Normally when DHT binds estrogen receptors (ER), it has anti-estrogenic activity, so with DHN in the mix we have an even more estrogenic enviroment. More estrogens = more prolactin.

hit the nail on the head!

 

[Type-IIx]

N=1 and totally anecdotal but when I combine 200 test with 200 nandrolone my bloods show significantly higher E2 than 200 test + 20%. This is sensative E2 test at both Labcorp and quest. From memory almost 2x.

Random or just me, no idea. I'm away but I can pull records at some point.

We could talk about what the design of an ideographic single subject experiment would have to look like to say this with any confidence: it'd have to use an A-B-A-B design (i.e., A.Test-B.Test+NPP-A.Test-B.Test+NPP) with samples taken repeatedly (it'd take more than a year to conduct this experiment) at steady state concentrations and under valid conditions (e.g., the gluteal depot would have to be used exclusively; NPP & enanthate/cypionate esters would have to be used due to comparable relative molecular weights & practicalities in achieving steady state and subsequent wash-out; we'd have to account for the distribution half lives & mean residence time differences between the esters, that are unfortunately mean values themselves and subject to great variability). Traditional nomothetic research has the advantage of being able to assume the normal distribution (with >= 30 subjects) or the use of the t-distribution for smaller sample sizes, such that we would construct a descriptive degree of change (mean value) with at least a 90% confidence interval (to say that only a 10% probability exists that any given interval from a random sample will not contain the true mean).

 

[Type-IIx]

Yes, but nandrolone competes for 5AR and converts to DHN. i ran 750 T / 500 NPP and was taking AI - bloods showed crashed e2 and prl, yet i was still growing gyno.

my doctor told me Nandrolone was causing low dht conversion thus creating a poor androgen; estrogen ratio. Proviron or DHT would offset dhn anti androgen activity. Masteron / proviron would be superior to ai or serm imo. its not like nolvadex is side free - makes you feel awful.

If you say so, plenty use Test & Nand without these problems. DHN is not anti-androgenic, it's just weakly androgenic.Since Nand is used at a relatively low dose, the fears of competition for 5AR is overblown. Mast is good because it prevents estrogen uptake into cells, e.g., breast cells. I'd still use Test & Nand, sure some Mast if you're gyno prone. Proviron binds SHBG (saturable and reduced dose-dependently by androgen) > T > E, thereby increasing bioavailable estradiol. I don't think any of these drugs are side free. Don't crash your estrogen by using too much AI and you'll be fine.

 

[TheOtherOne55]

Yes, but nandrolone competes for 5AR and converts to DHN. i ran 750 T / 500 NPP and was taking AI - bloods showed crashed e2 and prl, yet i was still growing gyno.

my doctor told me Nandrolone was causing low dht conversion thus creating a poor androgen; estrogen ratio. Proviron or DHT would offset dhn anti androgen activity. Masteron / proviron would be superior to ai or serm imo. its not like nolvadex is side free - makes you feel awful.

This.

Mast/Proviron is a must with a Test/Deca or NPP cycle. And the vast majority of others whom I tell to throw in Mast/Proviron feel better and get muuuch less sides.

 

[Type-IIx]

This.

Mast/Proviron is a must with a Test/Deca or NPP cycle. And the vast majority of others whom I tell to throw in Mast/Proviron feel better and get muuuch less sides.

I do like Proviron with Test & Nand, especially when Nand is ran relatively high, but this has nothing to do with 5AR as Proviron is not DHT and does not significantly affect DHT; it is a 5α-androstan-3-one (1α-methyl-DHT). Nor does this have to do with SHBG (its effect on SHBG is to increase bioavailable estrogen). Rather, it serves to promote libido & well-being by CNS actions (dopaminergic & serotonergic; it was found to be very similar to those seen with psychostimulants such as dextroamphetamine and the tricyclic antidepressants at doses as low as 1 mg in EEG activity). In this sense, it is opposite to Nandrolone's effects (increasing dopamine metabolism, i.e., breakdown) at doses as low as 100 mg/wk of Deca. Anyway, completely getting away from the thread topic of nandrolone increasing the estrogenic potency of testosterone.

 

[phoenix2]

I do like Proviron with Test & Nand, especially when Nand is ran relatively high, but this has nothing to do with 5AR as Proviron is not DHT and does not significantly affect DHT; it is a 5α-androstan-3-one (1α-methyl-DHT). Nor does this have to do with SHBG (its effect on SHBG is to increase bioavailable estrogen). Rather, it serves to promote libido & well-being by CNS actions (dopaminergic & serotonergic; it was found to be very similar to those seen with psychostimulants such as dextroamphetamine and the tricyclic antidepressants at doses as low as 1 mg in EEG activity). In this sense, it is opposite to Nandrolone's effects (increasing dopamine metabolism, i.e., breakdown) at doses as low as 100 mg/wk of Deca. Anyway, completely getting away from the thread topic of nandrolone increasing the estrogenic potency of testosterone.

Very interesting. So mesterolone is known to have 4.4 times greater affinity of DHT to SHBG, but can you explain how does that translate in more free estradiol only? Theoretically speaking, if a molecule binds SHBG it frees every hormone binded to such proteins. So in an androgen dominance enviroment we should have more free test, more free DHT and E2 too. But the ratio should increase in favor of androgen. I'm particularly interested on this topic because sometimes i feel that proviron gives me estrogenic like sides and its effects on mood, wellbeing and libido are erratic and unpredictable. Some days it makes me feel very good, other ones it makes me tired, or depressed or emotional

 

[360]

I do like Proviron with Test & Nand, especially when Nand is ran relatively high, but this has nothing to do with 5AR as Proviron is not DHT and does not significantly affect DHT; it is a 5α-androstan-3-one (1α-methyl-DHT). Nor does this have to do with SHBG (its effect on SHBG is to increase bioavailable estrogen). Rather, it serves to promote libido & well-being by CNS actions (dopaminergic & serotonergic; it was found to be very similar to those seen with psychostimulants such as dextroamphetamine and the tricyclic antidepressants at doses as low as 1 mg in EEG activity). In this sense, it is opposite to Nandrolone's effects (increasing dopamine metabolism, i.e., breakdown) at doses as low as 100 mg/wk of Deca. Anyway, completely getting away from the thread topic of nandrolone increasing the estrogenic potency of testosterone.

I was under the impression that Nandrolone inhibits dopamine reuptake thus creating an environment with more dopamine available, similar to the affects of cocaine and amphetamines. I have used Nandrolone twice in my life (Deca, NPP). Both times I experienced Deca dick midway through the cycle, dropped the Nandrolone, than one week later went through withdrawal. It was like an SSRI withdrawal or even a dopamine agonist withdrawal. I was behaving like someone withdrawing from cocaine or meth. Both times I was ready to go to the hospital for treatment. In my opinion, when using the Nandrolone my dopamine levels were elevated and when I stopped the Nandrolone my dopamine levels crashed, thus causing the withdrawal symptoms (insomnia, depression, anxiety, paranoia).

 

[360]

Very interesting. So mesterolone is known to have 4.4 times greater affinity of DHT to SHBG, but can you explain how does that translate in more free estradiol only? Theoretically speaking, if a molecule binds SHBG it frees every hormone binded to such proteins. So in an androgen dominance enviroment we should have more free test, more free DHT and E2 too. But the ratio should increase in favor of androgen. I'm particularly interested on this topic because sometimes i feel that proviron gives me estrogenic like sides and its effects on mood, wellbeing and libido are erratic and unpredictable. Some days it makes me feel very good, other ones it makes me tired, or depressed or emotional

The majority of bloodwork I see from people on Proviron show low SHBG and love E2.

 

[marssel]

All true (according to hypothetical models on 19-norsteroids as aromatase intermediates), but really and truly irrelevant with respect to endogenous biological effects in men. I mean, hCG stimulates 19-norandrosterone secretion in men.

Nah, while nandrolone does increase estrogen sensitivity, it has nothing to do with "induction" of 3β-HSD1. 3β-HSD is a bifunctional enzyme that catalyzes the oxidative conversion of Delta(5)-ene-3-beta-hydroxy steroids, and the oxidative conversion of ketosteroids. Basically, it works in both directions to convert a steroid with a keto group at C-3 to one with a hydroxy group in the same position, or vice versa.

Nandrolone differs from testosterone by the former lacking a C-19 methyl group (both are 3-ketosteroids).

Both testosterone and nandrolone produce E2 by aromatase (that produces estrogens by a two-step hydroxylation at C-19, and cleavage of the bond between C10 and C19). E2 isn't potentiated by 3β-HSD, it's weakened to E1 (the two are essentially in a state of flux).

Rather, the explanation for why progestins increase estrogen sensitivity is explained in Distinction between Prolactin and Progestins [by Type-IIx]

I think this is another case where decades of bodybuilding anecdotal facts contradict what scientists and academics find in mice or by making assumptions based on predisposed ideals. Mind you even with trt as a norm steroid research as we’ve lived it is decades behind the medical community not unlike with weed it’s just weed has a broader use base so it’s research and legalization was sped up greatly.

 

[360]

The majority of bloodwork I see from people on Proviron show low SHBG and love E2.

Sorry, low E2.

 

[Type-IIx]

Very interesting. So mesterolone is known to have 4.4 times greater affinity of DHT to SHBG, but can you explain how does that translate in more free estradiol only? Theoretically speaking, if a molecule binds SHBG it frees every hormone binded to such proteins. So in an androgen dominance enviroment we should have more free test, more free DHT and E2 too. But the ratio should increase in favor of androgen. I'm particularly interested on this topic because sometimes i feel that proviron gives me estrogenic like sides and its effects on mood, wellbeing and libido are erratic and unpredictable. Some days it makes me feel very good, other ones it makes me tired, or depressed or emotional

Not free estradiol only, but free estradiol preferentially as SHBG binds Proviron > T > E, the weakest binding ligand will tend to be bumped off.

 

[Type-IIx]

I was under the impression that Nandrolone inhibits dopamine reuptake thus creating an environment with more dopamine available, similar to the affects of cocaine and amphetamines. I have used Nandrolone twice in my life (Deca, NPP). Both times I experienced Deca dick midway through the cycle, dropped the Nandrolone, than one week later went through withdrawal. It was like an SSRI withdrawal or even a dopamine agonist withdrawal. I was behaving like someone withdrawing from cocaine or meth. Both times I was ready to go to the hospital for treatment. In my opinion, when using the Nandrolone my dopamine levels were elevated and when I stopped the Nandrolone my dopamine levels crashed, thus causing the withdrawal symptoms (insomnia, depression, anxiety, paranoia).

I just submitted an article on the topic to Meso that'll be published soon

 

[Type-IIx]

Sorry, low E2.

Subject to any statistical methods to root out the effects of chance and that actually control for the independent variable of proviron treatment? Even 90% confidence intervals are subject to 10% random chance, and most bloodwork is the product of a slew of drugs besides proviron only.

 

[gains4000]

If you say so, plenty use Test & Nand without these problems. DHN is not anti-androgenic, it's just weakly androgenic.Since Nand is used at a relatively low dose, the fears of competition for 5AR is overblown. Mast is good because it prevents estrogen uptake into cells, e.g., breast cells. I'd still use Test & Nand, sure some Mast if you're gyno prone. Proviron binds SHBG (saturable and reduced dose-dependently by androgen) > T > E, thereby increasing bioavailable estradiol. I don't think any of these drugs are side free. Don't crash your estrogen by using too much AI and you'll be fine.

DHN is anti androgenic. thats the reason why nandrolone can't support male sexual functioning. DHN is a partial agonist of the AR. If DHN is competing with DHT and is a weak androgen, then yeah that would be anti androgenic. No?

 

[Type-IIx]

DHN is anti androgenic. thats the reason why nandrolone can't support male sexual functioning. DHN is a partial agonist of the AR. If DHN is competing with DHT and is a weak androgen, then yeah that would be anti androgenic. No?

DHN is not anti-androgenic. There are multiple factors contributing to nandrolone's inability to support sexual function and I've written an article about it, I'll let you read that. DHN is not a partial AR agonist just a weak one... By your logic, Anavar is anti-androgenic. 5AR inhibitors (dutasteride, finasteride) are anti-androgenic by preventing amplification of T to DHT in gonadal and CNS tissues. Exogenous estrogens are anti-androgenic by increasing SHBG, thereby preferentially increasing the binding of the circulating androgens resulting in less free T available for action at the receptor level. Progesterone and its derivatives are anti-androgenic by exerting effects at the AR & PR, activation of progesterone receptors has been linked to reduced expression of AR. Estrogens potentiate this by upregulating PR synthesis.

 

[gains4000]

DHN is not anti-androgenic. There are multiple factors contributing to nandrolone's inability to support sexual function and I've written an article about it, I'll let you read that. DHN is not a partial AR agonist just a weak one... By your logic, Anavar is anti-androgenic. 5AR inhibitors (dutasteride, finasteride) are anti-androgenic by preventing amplification of T to DHT in gonadal and CNS tissues. Exogenous estrogens are anti-androgenic by increasing SHBG, thereby preferentially increasing the binding of the circulating androgens resulting in less free T available for action at the receptor level. Progesterone and its derivatives are anti-androgenic by exerting effects at the AR & PR, activation of progesterone receptors has been linked to reduced expression of AR. Estrogens potentiate this by upregulating PR synthesis.

Ok, i see where you are coming from. DHN is just weaker than DHT at exerting androgenic effects.

Are progesterone and its derivatives anti androgenic when exogenous androgens (Test, Mast, var etc) are administered? Because i see men on TRT taking progesterone.

i know progestins can have potent anti-androgenic effects via suppression of testosterone production. Im assuming this can only happen when you are not using exogenous Testosterone

 

[Love_to_Bodybuild]

Sensitizing recepetors? Who knows), which disrupt dopaminergic signalling between hypotalamus and pituitary gland, leading to prolactin release.

When prolactin is high dopamine is low, correct? They are the opposite of one another correct? This is why people take Mucuna pruiens, nature's l Dopa, which does lower prolactin, by increasing dopamine, correct?

Dopamine is involved in a quality erection , correct? So this explains why nandrolone can cause this effect.

I would like to clear be things up from my experience, take it what it's worth. Low dosed Deca with low dosed test, say 140 Deca and 60 Deca per week , can help keep erection quality. Deca solo at 210 mgs after four weeks, my libido wasn't there period.

Moderate dosed Deca 600 mgs weekly with 10 mgs dbol on most training days , erection quality is fine. I also seem to feel better emotionally on 600 mgs deca than 210 mgs deca, but 210 Deca was solo, so not really a comparison because when I took 10 mgs dbol out of 600 mgs deca, erection quality became non existent,it seemed.

I can't comment on 700-1200 Deca with 10 mgs dbol bc haven't expirienced it yet, it's possible it can disrupt dopamine due to higher prolactin, which are some things to remedy it. Nice to know this information.

 

[Love_to_Bodybuild]

Because i see men on TRT taking progesterone.

I've tried it. I think I used way to many mgs or whatever the dose bc I felt way different , more emotional it seemed. Still got a bottle of it. Maybe if I got the dose right. Anyways I've also tried allopregenolone, took it before work for a while and caused a tired effect, due to gaba . I've seen some research that showed dhea and allopregenolone levels are super low in men who have not taken a break from endogenous hormone use for a few years. That said, I don't know how well the parameters of the study are correct.