Nandrolone increases the Estrogenic Potency of Testosterone

[Type-IIx]

It is pretty misleading that they give men 200mg of deca every 3 weeks and expect them not to have diminished libido.

600mg deca / week still causing low estrogen levels. We know low e2 causes poor libido and other side effects.

the part about dhn is confusing .. i thought dhn can create enough androgenic activity at higher dosages. nandrolone is tricky.

I don't think that it's misleading, there were more women than men studied in this assessment of nandrolone in hip fracture rehabilitation in elderly patients and increased libido was merely a secondary outcome measured. When you design an experiment it's not that you "expect" an outcome at all; rather, a properly designed study seeks to assess tolerability and efficacy of an intervention (the hypothesis might be that the treatment results in Y [primary outcome]; but assuming the "null hypothesis" [that X has no effect on Y], then seeking to falsify that null hypothesis). These researchers might not even know as much as you about nandrolone's inability to support sexual function; it doesn't matter, because the study will bear out whether there is any statistical significance to any changes in X.

A nandrolone dose that would support sexual function has never been thoroughly investigated; 1.5 - 2.2 g/week or thereabouts perhaps? Your guess is as good as mine.

also @Type-IIx nandrolone causes more virilizing side effects than testosterone according to all the female bodybuilding coaches and athletes. i wonder if females react differently to nand. I swear ive heard nandrolone is worse than tren for woman.

I don't think they react differently, I think that it's a function of nandrolone simply being more androgenic than testosterone (but not its 5AR product DHT) per mg, despite those irrelevant Hershberger Assay rodent studies. It demonstrates the important function again of testosterone amplification to DHT by 5AR in gonadal and CNS tissues. I doubt that on a molar basis (per-mg) trenbolone is not even more androgenic and virilizing in women than nandrolone. I've heard it said that tren for women is like making an irreversible commitment to bodybuilding; there'll be no going back.

 

[gains4000]

I don't think that it's misleading, there were more women than men studied in this assessment of nandrolone in hip fracture rehabilitation in elderly patients and increased libido was merely a secondary outcome measured. When you design an experiment it's not that you "expect" an outcome at all; rather, a properly designed study seeks to assess tolerability and efficacy of an intervention (the hypothesis might be that the treatment results in Y [primary outcome]; but assuming the "null hypothesis" [that X has no effect on Y], then seeking to falsify that null hypothesis). These researchers might not even know as much as you about nandrolone's inability to support sexual function; it doesn't matter, because the study will bear out whether there is any statistical significance to any changes in X.

A nandrolone dose that would support sexual function has never been thoroughly investigated; 1.5 - 2.2 g/week or thereabouts perhaps? Your guess is as good as mine.


I don't think they react differently, I think that it's a function of nandrolone simply being more androgenic than testosterone (but not its 5AR product DHT) per mg, despite those irrelevant Hershberger Assay rodent studies. It demonstrates the important function again of testosterone amplification to DHT by 5AR in gonadal and CNS tissues. I doubt that on a molar basis (per-mg) trenbolone is not even more androgenic and virilizing in women than nandrolone. I've heard it said that tren for women is like making an irreversible commitment to bodybuilding; there'll be no going back.

i did more research and found out:

"nandrolone is not only an androgen, but also an oestrogen. Because it has no C19 methyl group, nandrolone also fits in the estradiol receptor."

So nandrolone barley aromatizing is still misleading its inherently estrogenic due to its chemical structure.

 

[Love_to_Bodybuild]

Nandrolone converts at twenty percent abouts. 500 mgs would equal about the estrogenic effects and ratio, of 100 mgs testosterone, correct?

I've gotten puffy nips on 600 mgs deca weekly and 10 mgs dbol, daily, most days. Had to take raloxifene, so to say deca won't cause estrogenic effects is incorrect, and obviously is dose dependant.

As far as running anything with deca, 10 mgs dbol has definitely supported sex drive. On days not taken sex drive seems lower or not there.

 

[gains4000]

Nandrolone converts at twenty percent abouts. 500 mgs would equal about the estrogenic effects and ratio, of 100 mgs testosterone, correct?

I've gotten puffy nips on 600 mgs deca weekly and 10 mgs dbol, daily, most days. Had to take raloxifene, so to say deca won't cause estrogenic effects is incorrect, and obviously is dose dependant.

As far as running anything with deca, 10 mgs dbol has definitely supported sex drive. On days not taken sex drive seems lower or not there.

I am starting to think deca dbol is outdated and people should swap dbol for anavar, winstrol, proviron etc.

Nandrolone has direct binding to the ER. DHT derivatives counteract this. Dbol like test creates estrogen and the slightest amount causes nandrolone to sensitize the body to estrogen.

if nandrolone shows subnormal e2 levels at 600mg/week (based on type 2 bloodwork) it still does not give the whole picture. Because nandrolone itself has estrogenic activity.

 

[Love_to_Bodybuild]

I am starting to think deca dbol is outdated and people should swap dbol for anavar, winstrol, proviron etc.

Nandrolone has direct binding to the ER. DHT derivatives counteract this. Dbol like test creates estrogen and the slightest amount causes nandrolone to sensitize the body to estrogen.

if nandrolone shows subnormal e2 levels at 600mg/week (based on type 2 bloodwork) it still does not give the whole picture. Because nandrolone itself has estrogenic activity.

Experiment as you wish, you may find otherwise. I've tried madol, var, with deca and madol was okay in sex drive but var 25 mgs wasn't. Tried test and eq. Dht derivative s oral or injection, do increase free test levels. I think it's good idea to include a small amount from time to time. Dbol seems to work best for me with deca. When on hrt 130 mgs deca 60 mgs test seems okay. When deca gets higher with test that's when I had issues Yes deca and dbols been around since 70s.

Nandrolone ,deca, puts estrogen at about 20-25 levels on 600 mgs, which are in normal range. What lab results did you see ?

 

[phoenix2]

i did more research and found out:

"nandrolone is not only an androgen, but also an oestrogen. Because it has no C19 methyl group, nandrolone also fits in the estradiol receptor."

So nandrolone barley aromatizing is still misleading its inherently estrogenic due to its chemical structure.

That is true to some extent. Estradiol is a "19-nor" due to the lack of methyl group at C19 ("nor" means just that, a lack of alkyl group, like nor-adrenaline and its alkylated form, adrenaline), but the fact that nandrolone lacks a methyl group like E2 doesn't mean that it binds AND activates trascriptional factors of ER. I don't know... I only know for sure that we are all guinea pigs when it comes to nandrolones (tren included). I can attest for sure that on me tren fucks with e2. I don't know if it makes me more sensitive or it increases test aromatization, but at given dose of test + AI, whenever i add trenbolone into the mix, i start experiencing high estrogens sides (even with zero prolactin due to cabergoline).

 

[TheRoid]

That is true to some extent. Estradiol is a "19-nor" due to the lack of methyl group at C19 ("nor" means just that, a lack of alkyl group, like nor-adrenaline and its alkylated form, adrenaline), but the fact that nandrolone lacks a methyl group like E2 doesn't mean that it binds AND activates trascriptional factors of ER. I don't know... I only know for sure that we are all guinea pigs when it comes to nandrolones (tren included). I can attest for sure that on me tren fucks with e2. I don't know if it makes me more sensitive or it increases test aromatization, but at given dose of test + AI, whenever i add trenbolone into the mix, i start experiencing high estrogens sides (even with zero prolactin due to cabergoline).

Yep, if it was an effective ER agonist I doubt they would have seen results like these:

Hormonal treatment of advanced breast cancer. A randomized trial of tamoxifen versus nandrolone decanoate - PubMed

The response to tamoxifen (TAM) (10 mg to 20 mg twice orally) was compared with the response to nandrolone decanoate (NAN) (50 mg every second week or 100 mg every third week intramuscularly) in this randomized study in previously untreated women with advanced breast cancer. Patients were...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

 

[Type-IIx]

i did more research and found out:

"nandrolone is not only an androgen, but also an oestrogen. Because it has no C19 methyl group, nandrolone also fits in the estradiol receptor."

So nandrolone barley aromatizing is still misleading its inherently estrogenic due to its chemical structure.

Well, TIL. Your research led you to some amazing conclusions, you should publish an article on your scintillating findings.

I'd start with Houtman's bioluminescence data showing nandrolone's ERα transactivation potency and gaining a basic understanding of chemistry.

 

[Type-IIx]

Yep, if it was an effective ER agonist I doubt they would have seen results like these:

Hormonal treatment of advanced breast cancer. A randomized trial of tamoxifen versus nandrolone decanoate - PubMed

The response to tamoxifen (TAM) (10 mg to 20 mg twice orally) was compared with the response to nandrolone decanoate (NAN) (50 mg every second week or 100 mg every third week intramuscularly) in this randomized study in previously untreated women with advanced breast cancer. Patients were...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

It's not. Nandrolone is 17β-hydroxyestr-4-en-3-one and an estrane structure, but is not estrogenic in its biological activity obviously it is a C-19norandrogen.

 

[gains4000]

Well, TIL. Your research led you to some amazing conclusions, you should publish an article on your scintillating findings.

I'd start with Houtman's bioluminescence data showing nandrolone's ERα transactivation potency and gaining a basic understanding of chemistry.

i'm not claiming any "amazing" conclusions. i'm just simply stating another piece of information about nandrolone.

 

[gains4000]

Nandrolone itself shows significant binding affinity and full agonist activity with the alpha-estrogen receptor

Bovee TF, Helsdingen RJ, Rietjens IM, et al. Rapid yeast estrogen bioassays stably expressing human estrogen receptors alpha and beta, and green fluorescent protein: a comparison of different compounds with both receptor types. J Steroid Biochem Mol Biol 2004;91:99-109. 10.1016/j.jsbmb.2004.03.118 [PubMed] [CrossRef] [Google Scholar]

Nandrolone represents a penultimate step of the aromatization reaction while it is bound to the enzyme complex, including the C19 methyl group excised but a still nonaromatic A ring. Paradoxically, despite being an intermediate in the aromatization reaction, after parenteral administration nandrolone is virtually not aromatized,603,604 presumably as a poor substrate with hindered access to the human aromatase enzyme.

 

[Type-IIx]

Nandrolone itself shows significant binding affinity and full agonist activity with the alpha-estrogen receptor

Bovee TF, Helsdingen RJ, Rietjens IM, et al. Rapid yeast estrogen bioassays stably expressing human estrogen receptors alpha and beta, and green fluorescent protein: a comparison of different compounds with both receptor types. J Steroid Biochem Mol Biol 2004;91:99-109. 10.1016/j.jsbmb.2004.03.118 [PubMed] [CrossRef] [Google Scholar]

Nandrolone represents a penultimate step of the aromatization reaction while it is bound to the enzyme complex, including the C19 methyl group excised but a still nonaromatic A ring. Paradoxically, despite being an intermediate in the aromatization reaction, after parenteral administration nandrolone is virtually not aromatized,603,604 presumably as a poor substrate with hindered access to the human aromatase enzyme.

The concentrations can never be reached in humans. Nandrolone has 0.0001X the potency of estradiol to activate ER.

 

[gains4000]

The concentrations can never be reached in humans. Nandrolone has 0.0001X the potency of estradiol to activate ER.

i appreciate your patience. So let's summarize for the folks paying attention.

Nandrolone is less Estrogenic than testosterone. It barley aromatizes and Lowers prolactin due to sub normal e2 levels. Nandrolone used alone is a dry compound. Nandrolone has a very high anabolic to androgenic ratio. There is nothing anti androgenic about nandrolone. It has been shown to increase penis size for boys according to wikipedia. It has a specific effect on dopamine metabolism that can possibly be a reason men get depressed on it. Proviron has an opposite effect of nandrolone with regards to dopamine metabolism.

Nandrolone should be paired with a more androgenic compound (Mast, Var, Winstrol, Proviron etc) to replace its inefficiency of being able to support sexual functioning on its own.

Using excessive testosterone dosages with nandrolone can increase estrogen sensitivity in users. Hence why golden era bodybuilders did not mix testosterone and nandrolone base.

 

[Type-IIx]

i appreciate your patience. So let's summarize for the folks paying attention.

Nandrolone is less Estrogenic than testosterone. It barley aromatizes and Lowers prolactin due to sub normal e2 levels. Nandrolone used alone is a dry compound. Nandrolone has a very high anabolic to androgenic ratio. There is nothing anti androgenic about nandrolone. It has been shown to increase penis size for boys according to wikipedia. It has a specific effect on dopamine metabolism that can possibly be a reason men get depressed on it. Proviron has an opposite effect of nandrolone with regards to dopamine metabolism.

Nandrolone should be paired with a more androgenic compound (Mast, Var, Winstrol, Proviron etc) to replace its inefficiency of being able to support sexual functioning on its own.

Using excessive testosterone dosages with nandrolone can increase estrogen sensitivity in users. Hence why golden era bodybuilders did not mix testosterone and nandrolone base.

Good summary, the only point of disagreement is that I do not believe nandrolone has a very high anabolic:androgenic ratio, because I think it's far more androgenic in humans than the Hershberger Assay suggests (that uses the rat levator ani as a proxy for anabolism, which is the dorsal bulbocavernous, a sex organ).

 

[gains4000]

Good summary, the only point of disagreement is that I do not believe nandrolone has a very high anabolic:androgenic ratio, because I think it's far more androgenic in humans than the Hershberger Assay suggests (that uses the rat levator ani as a proxy for anabolism, which is the dorsal bulbocavernous, a sex organ).

very nice. I think this thread will help a lot of people and dispel a good amount of bro-science.

 

[RepZZ]

This.

Mast/Proviron is a must with a Test/Deca or NPP cycle. And the vast majority of others whom I tell to throw in Mast/Proviron feel better and get muuuch less sides.

I'm on Deca/Test (TRT), I play with the doses. 400mg Deca/200mg Test per week. No sides and I'm 50 years old. I only take this combo in the cold months (joints) and I'm using 12 mg Boron daily. Libido goes down but no real sides other than this.

 

[Love_to_Bodybuild]

i appreciate your patience. So let's summarize for the folks paying attention.

Nandrolone is less Estrogenic than testosterone. It barley aromatizes and Lowers prolactin due to sub normal e2 levels.

Raises prolactin and lowers dopamine.

Twenty percent is enough estrogen ,on a moderate or high dose.

 

[gains4000]

Raises prolactin and lowers dopamine.

Twenty percent is enough estrogen ,on a moderate or high dose.

Even at 600mg / week Nandrolone lowers prolactin due to subnormal e2 levels. Testosterone is more prolactin inducing.

 

[Love_to_Bodybuild]

Even at 600mg / week Nandrolone lowers prolactin due to subnormal e2 levels. Testosterone is more prolactin inducing.

20-25 are normal estrogen levels, on 600 mgs deca . Nandrolone lowers dopamine correct? Dopamine is the opposite of prolactin correct? If prolactin is low dopamine is high and if prolactin is high dopamine is low correct?

 

[gains4000]

20-25 are normal estrogen levels, on 600 mgs deca . Nandrolone lowers dopamine correct? Dopamine is the opposite of prolactin correct? If prolactin is low dopamine is high and if prolactin is high dopamine is low correct?

Type 2 posted an article on this. Tren lowers prolactin. Nandrolone lowers prolactin as well. https://thinksteroids.com/community...-deca-serm-vs-ai-logic-by-type-iix.134410959/