High or low volume training?

[Golden]

What about a combination of both? Say arms day

Bb curls 1x20-30rp
Dip machine 1x20-30 RP

Then that person, once they have finished their set/sets that are intense focused on progressive overload they can play with volume destroy, fatigue, pump their muscle.

I guess almost like an fst7 routine but you don't need the structure for the volume pump work. You can get that part in quick with minimal rest for those of us who don't have 2 hours

Talking of minimal rest. I see many including Paul carter pushing this 3 minute rest between sets and even between each arm. For some exercises, legs mostly, I can see 3 minutes being reasonable but surely not everything!

 

[qbkilla]

Talking of minimal rest. I see many including Paul carter pushing this 3 minute rest between sets and even between each arm. For some exercises, legs mostly, I can see 3 minutes being reasonable but surely not everything!

I feel like the science guys contradict themselves.

They say longer rest is better, makes sense

Then they say rest pause is equal to straight sets, also makes sense

Then they say if you do shorter rest, you need to compensate by adding more volume.

This now doesn't add up. How do we differentiate between normal short rest and rest pause? If I'm using rest pause, and this is equal to straight sets, I shouldn't need more volume. Possibly less because I'm taxing my CNS more.

Thoughts?

 

[Dens228]

I feel like the science guys contradict themselves.

They say longer rest is better, makes sense

Then they say rest pause is equal to straight sets, also makes sense

Then they say if you do shorter rest, you need to compensate by adding more volume.

This now doesn't add up. How do we differentiate between normal short rest and rest pause? If I'm using rest pause, and this is equal to straight sets, I shouldn't need more volume. Possibly less because I'm taxing my CNS more.

Thoughts?

I base their info, especially Carter, on the fact that according to them everyone prior to their "knowledge" has been doing it completely wrong. He does mention two bodybuilders that were "close" to training correctly. Hold arm at 17.3 degrees from body, turn wrist 14 degrees, lean back this far..........there sure are a lot of people that built great physiques doing it wrong.

 

[headtrainer]

I do my best using high volume for 8 weeks and then rotating it with 2 weeks of low volume to give my body a break. Then I repeat the cycle. The intensity remains high during both training phases. Constantly going all out with high volume over trains me both physically and mentally.

 

[Sixfoottwo]

I feel like the science guys contradict themselves.

They say longer rest is better, makes sense

Then they say rest pause is equal to straight sets, also makes sense

Then they say if you do shorter rest, you need to compensate by adding more volume.

This now doesn't add up. How do we differentiate between normal short rest and rest pause? If I'm using rest pause, and this is equal to straight sets, I shouldn't need more volume. Possibly less because I'm taxing my CNS more.

Thoughts?

I don't think they necessarily contradict themselves. I think it's as simple as multiple ways can work. Find what you like and what works and you'll be good.

 

[Cerberus777]

I feel like the science guys contradict themselves.

They say longer rest is better, makes sense

Then they say rest pause is equal to straight sets, also makes sense

Then they say if you do shorter rest, you need to compensate by adding more volume.

This now doesn't add up. How do we differentiate between normal short rest and rest pause? If I'm using rest pause, and this is equal to straight sets, I shouldn't need more volume. Possibly less because I'm taxing my CNS more.

Thoughts?

Rest pause hits the CNS less than 3 sets to failure with 1-3min rest. That's a good thing.

 

[juggy38]

What about a combination of both? Say arms day

Bb curls 1x20-30rp
Dip machine 1x20-30 RP

Then that person, once they have finished their set/sets that are intense focused on progressive overload they can play with volume destroy, fatigue, pump their

I feel like the science guys contradict themselves.

They say longer rest is better, makes sense

Then they say rest pause is equal to straight sets, also makes sense

Then they say if you do shorter rest, you need to compensate by adding more volume.

This now doesn't add up. How do we differentiate between normal short rest and rest pause? If I'm using rest pause, and this is equal to straight sets, I shouldn't need more volume. Possibly less because I'm taxing my CNS more.

Thoughts?

That’s not exactly what they do in the studies.

Group A—- 315lbs 3x8 straight across=24

Group B 315x RP…12,6,3= 21 reps

Group C 315 xRP 12,6,3,2,1 =24 reps

Group A and C see
Similar growth. That’s when they mean when they say “equate volume”

 

[Corgopop]

What about a combination of both? Say arms day

Bb curls 1x20-30rp
Dip machine 1x20-30 RP

Then that person, once they have finished their set/sets that are intense focused on progressive overload they can play with volume destroy, fatigue, pump their muscle.

I guess almost like an fst7 routine but you don't need the structure for the volume pump work. You can get that part in quick with minimal rest for those of us who don't have 2 hours

Pretty close to what I do.

My sessions go like this (I’ll give you a push day for example)

Heavy chest press with a top set and back off (back off usually utilizing a rest pause)

Heavy shoulder press with a top set and back off (again, back off utilizing some sort of intensity technique)

Then I go into more volume based flies, lateral raises, and tricep work.

Has been awesome for me, personally. I really make sure to overload those first two movements as well.

 

[xpoc]

Rest pause hits the CNS less than 3 sets to failure with 1-3min rest. That's a good thing.

is there anything to support this? it sounds reasonable, but is it supported by a study? the diff in volume is obv:

rp example incline smith. 200 lbs x 14-6-3 = 23 reps rest pause style. total volume 4600 lbs
ss example incline smith. 200 lbs x 14-11-8= 33 reps straight set. total volume 6600 lbs

there is more volume doing straight sets, but in both cases failure was achieved 3x and it seems failure not volume would have a greater impact on cns fatigue. but i dont know this for a fact.

this is why i really like the jordan peters/phil hernon style of 1 set to failure. no guess work.

 

[qbkilla]

That’s not exactly what they do in the studies.

Group A—- 315lbs 3x8 straight across=24

Group B 315x RP…12,6,3= 21 reps

Group C 315 xRP 12,6,3,2,1 =24 reps

Group A and C see
Similar growth. That’s when they mean when they say “equate volume”

Good observation I see what you mean.

Interesting that in the above c doesn't see better gains than a, as they have done more reps close to failure or effective reps I think they call them.

 

[qbkilla]

Pretty close to what I do.

My sessions go like this (I’ll give you a push day for example)

Heavy chest press with a top set and back off (back off usually utilizing a rest pause)

Heavy shoulder press with a top set and back off (again, back off utilizing some sort of intensity technique)

Then I go into more volume based flies, lateral raises, and tricep work.

Has been awesome for me, personally. I really make sure to overload those first two movements as well.

Yeah this seems ideal. You have structure but freedom. You don't have to worry so much about gym clowns being on the machine you need except for those 3 key exercises, because the extra voulme isn't based on progressive overload precisely.

 

[johnjuanb1]

High volume for me. When I was 22 low volume worked great when I was working full time and going to college full time. I lifted heavy then. Heavy lifting isn’t an option for my body now. I go for pump pump pump.

 

[tornquad201]

High volume for me. When I was 22 low volume worked great when I was working full time and going to college full time. I lifted heavy then. Heavy lifting isn’t an option for my body now. I go for pump pump pump.

How many sets

 

[qbkilla]

High volume for me. When I was 22 low volume worked great when I was working full time and going to college full time. I lifted heavy then. Heavy lifting isn’t an option for my body now. I go for pump pump pump.

Before switching from low volume to high did you first try to increase rep range? That could always be an option, continue to do a low number of intense sets but easier on joints

 

[Golden]

Those who have said high volume, what exactly do you class as high volume in terms of sets?

 

[Cerberus777]

is there anything to support this? it sounds reasonable, but is it supported by a study? the diff in volume is obv:

rp example incline smith. 200 lbs x 14-6-3 = 23 reps rest pause style. total volume 4600 lbs
ss example incline smith. 200 lbs x 14-11-8= 33 reps straight set. total volume 6600 lbs

there is more volume doing straight sets, but in both cases failure was achieved 3x and it seems failure not volume would have a greater impact on cns fatigue. but i dont know this for a fact.

this is why i really like the jordan peters/phil hernon style of 1 set to failure. no guess work.

I'll see if I can find it. I think Scott Stevenson mentioned it. Something about not being fully recuperate vs fully recuperate the CNS sees it as one set.

 

[Necrias]

I do both. I do 20-25 sets per session over 5-8 exercises. The first 2-3 exercises are heavy/HIT style, but if I do more than that my joints go to shit pretty quickly. After that, I switch to a TUT/lower rest approach for the rest of the session. Lots of tempo work and pulse reps, usually stopping 1-2 shy of failure. I'm not saying it is the best way, but it allows me to stay consistent, which is the most important factor in BB.

 

[Necrias]

Pretty close to what I do.

My sessions go like this (I’ll give you a push day for example)

Heavy chest press with a top set and back off (back off usually utilizing a rest pause)

Heavy shoulder press with a top set and back off (again, back off utilizing some sort of intensity technique)

Then I go into more volume based flies, lateral raises, and tricep work.

Has been awesome for me, personally. I really make sure to overload those first two movements as well.

Looks like we train pretty much the same way! I made my response before reading yours.

 

[TheOtherOne55]

I do mostly low volume but put in metabolic work as i know it does have some merit in growth.
For instance, i'll do 2 heavy working sets on Hack Squat and at the end of the my leg work do 4 sets of leg press, short rest periods, 15-25 reps per set. Engorge the muscle with blood to fill it out.

I do think that mechanical tension through hard and heavy training IS the best way to go, but we also know pump shit works...(maybe just not as well)
I look at Fortitude Training as a prime example. Hard and heavy but with elements of metabolic work that feel good and just pump blood in a much as possible.
I wouldnt call it HIGH VOLUME but its the common elements of high volume approaches. Ever since i started training (15 for football) ive always training to failure.
So trying to do something hgher volume with less fatigue and failure is almost impossible to me.

I also think it depends on what you are training and safety wise. Using hammer strength pressng machines, i can push myself to true 1000% failure.
On legs, i know i do need a bit more volume because i would kill myself if i training to 100% failure on Hacks...i can drop a chest pressing machne and be A-OK...i cannot do that with leg press and hacks.

 

[qbkilla]

I do mostly low volume but put in metabolic work as i know it does have some merit in growth.
For instance, i'll do 2 heavy working sets on Hack Squat and at the end of the my leg work do 4 sets of leg press, short rest periods, 15-25 reps per set. Engorge the muscle with blood to fill it out.

I do think that mechanical tension through hard and heavy training IS the best way to go, but we also know pump shit works...(maybe just not as well)
I look at Fortitude Training as a prime example. Hard and heavy but with elements of metabolic work that feel good and just pump blood in a much as possible.
I wouldnt call it HIGH VOLUME but its the common elements of high volume approaches. Ever since i started training (15 for football) ive always training to failure.
So trying to do something hgher volume with less fatigue and failure is almost impossible to me.

I also think it depends on what you are training and safety wise. Using hammer strength pressng machines, i can push myself to true 1000% failure.
On legs, i know i do need a bit more volume because i would kill myself if i training to 100% failure on Hacks...i can drop a chest pressing machne and be A-OK...i cannot do that with leg press and hacks.

Good stuff and I agree. It's probably best to have those heavy sets to progress but also some volume pump work.

I guess the question would be,, what is the best way to split it?

Upper heavy
Lower heavy
Upper pump
Lower pump
(Similar to fortitude or a phul program

Or the bro split where we have

Chest Day
Incline bench 1 set rest paused
Pump work

Arm Day
Cgbp 1 set rest paused
Db curls 1 set rest paused
Then pump time for bis and Tris