Training Volume

[OuchThatHurts]

If you didn't care about strength at all, only size, and you were at your prime age, what would your training volume look like? What kind of split would you have? Times per week? Would you train twice a day two muscle groups? Super high reps, forced reps, TUT, stretch, partials, band work? Would you be like RC and say, "Everyone wanna be a bodybuilder but nobody wanna lift no heavy ass weights," or would you be like Arny and Platz doing 20, 30, 40 rep sets? Or maybe a specific style, JM, DC, Shelby, PPL, 5x5...etc

What would you do? (even if in an 'if I had it to do all over again' sorta way)

 

[TheRoid]

Oh my man...if I had to do it all over again I wouldn't give two f*cks about strenght.
I started lifting at 15 and became addicted to strenght right away. Obsessed. It literally took me almost 20 years before I finally managed to accept it was actually holding me back from achieving my REAL goals. Ego is a bitch.

 

[Doitagain]

Oh my man...if I had to do it all over again I wouldn't give two f*cks about strenght.
I started lifting at 15 and became addicted to strenght right away. Obsessed. It literally took me almost 20 years before I finally managed to accept it was actually holding me back from achieving my REAL goals. Ego is a bitch.

Did this stubborn minset also caused you many injuries in the long term?

 

[Swifto]

Oh my man...if I had to do it all over again I wouldn't give two f*cks about strenght.
I started lifting at 15 and became addicted to strenght right away. Obsessed. It literally took me almost 20 years before I finally managed to accept it was actually holding me back from achieving my REAL goals. Ego is a bitch.

How can you not care about "strength" if the goal is building muscle through progressive overload?

 

[TheRoid]

How can you not care about "strength" if the goal is building muscle through progressive overload?

So you don't think that one can simply over-emphasise the raw strenght side at the expense of hypertrophy? Really?
Of course I got bigger, just not even remotely as much as I could have, and in a MUCH shorter time.

 

[Gunsmith]

If I were younger and trying to grow id probably stick to DC training and alternate between that and a John Meadows program.

Moderate volume and frequency and steady progression.

 

[TheRoid]

Did this stubborn minset also caused you many injuries in the long term?

Ironically enough, nope. Possibly because I've always been a perfect form nazi.
All my injuries have occurred outside of the gym.

 

[TheOtherOne55]

Unless you are working in a true PLing range of singles, double, triples, etc….you will gain size AND get stronger, NO MATTER WHAT you do. But to cover all bases I would probably do something like Fortitude Training because of its variety of techniques. Heavy loading, sarcoplasmic work as well as other tools in the tool box.

In simple terms, If you want to be the biggest possible version of yourself, you’re still gonna need to be strong. It’s unavoidable.

 

[TheRoid]

In simple terms, If you want to be the biggest possible version of yourself, you’re still gonna need to be strong. It’s unavoidable.

Who ever stated otherwise? From this to "whatever you do gets you just as big as long as you add plates to the bar" there's all the difference in the world.
It looks like my point was completely misinterpreted.

 

[TheOtherOne55]

Who ever stated otherwise? From this to "whatever you do gets you just as big as long as you add plates to the bar" there's all the difference in the world.
It looks like my point was completely misinterpreted.

Not your point Roid, just this question in general.

I think to a certain extent it’s impossible to say, “If you didn’t care about strength at all.” You would kinda HAVE to care, at least a little bit, If you wanted to be the biggest.

 

[Mufasa123]

Not your point Roid, just this question in general.

I think to a certain extent it’s impossible to say, “If you didn’t care about strength at all.” You would kinda HAVE to care, at least a little bit, If you wanted to be the biggest.

It's a good point and essential to hypertrophy and why the body is making a muscle bigger to meet an adaptive need.
1) holding all else equal a bigger muscle is a stronger muscle (fact and indisputable)
2) hypertrophy occurs because adding mass to a lever "bigger" results in a more efficient lever and in the physics of manipulating a joint a larger muscle improves angle/force application via on that joint.

So they can't be completely separated but emphasis can be skewed as you say. Heavy neural ranges of %1RM (intensity) and resulting low volume work on average would be minimized.

 

[TheRoid]

Not your point Roid, just this question in general.

I think to a certain extent it’s impossible to say, “If you didn’t care about strength at all.” You would kinda HAVE to care, at least a little bit, If you wanted to be the biggest.

Well this absolute lack of common sense would be truly embarassing indeed.
If I had said one can keep on progressing from scrawny to huge just by adding volume and increasing frequency always with his 30lbs fixed barbell I'd be the Prince of Dumbassess. In my first reply I mentioned my  obsession, and that certainly made me lose sight of what I was actually trying to achieve.

 

[OuchThatHurts]

Not your point Roid, just this question in general.

I think to a certain extent it’s impossible to say, “If you didn’t care about strength at all.” You would kinda HAVE to care, at least a little bit, If you wanted to be the biggest.

Brothers, my intention wasn't to start a debate of any sort.This is interesting because years ago, I read an article in Flex which asked "is stronger better for growth" which made an impression on me, Asked the question, is strength good for size. In other words, guys with the best musculoskeletal leverage for strength had to lift far more weight and risk muscle tears and tendon injuries, and eventually joint problems, stress on the body, than men with poorer leverage but better endurance. For example, one of the biggest guys in my gym I once saw doing concentration curls with a 20lb dumbell but huge reps. He was a 20" arm guy and most guys would need double that weight for the same zmount of reps.

I was thinking about that article and what I've seen in the gym since and while there were exceptions, the lower weight handling guys, maybe even due to better form, have often many times had huge size, doing 225lb squats for 30 reps or more.

And all my life, I was of the mind that if I wasn't getting stronger, I wasn't progressing. But today, whether there is 315 on my shoulders or 495, I'm good for about the same amount of reps with each. WTH? So perhaps I went terribly wrong somewhere.

 

[LATS]

Any person who ever held any good size was also strong.. now does that mean you should always train for strength in mind? No.. but even if you train for " hypertrophy" you will get stronger.. the two coincide ..
Even if one trains in the 15 rep range you will have to get progressively stronger to get bigger.. if your benching 225 pounds for 15 good clean reps.. then in a years time are benching 275 pounds for 15 you are going to be bigger..
Look at the guys who do lots of volume and are big.. many of the middle eastern competitors are in this category.. some are doing 7 exercises for chest. . With reps in the 10 to 15 range.. they are massive guys.. but then look at the poundage they are using for those higher reps ranges.. pretty decent loads.. so there is still strength involved.
Look at serge nubrets routines.. people say he used light weights.. no... not for his style.. he could bench in the mid 400s.. but used 225 pounds for sets of 12.. only resting 30 seconds.. most would be relegated to 135 to do what he did.. so again he was strong..
So in conclusion if you want size.. you can't avoid strength. It may not be linear.. but its there.. and adding more volume to make up for the lack of strength is putting a band aid on a amputee.

 

[OuchThatHurts]

1) holding all else equal a bigger muscle is a stronger muscle (fact and indisputable)

I once got embarrassed by a chic, a gymnast who was half my weight, beat me in an arm wrestling match. We sure as heck weren't 'built' equally. It was unreal the strength she had in those arms. I'm still ashamed to even discuss it. Did she achieve that from the pommel horse because then we should all give that a go!

 

[TheOtherOne55]

Brothers, my intention wasn't to start a debate of any sort.This is interesting because years ago, I read an article in Flex which asked "is stronger better for growth" which made an impression on me, Asked the question, is strength good for size. In other words, guys with the best musculoskeletal leverage for strength had to lift far more weight and risk muscle tears and tendon injuries, and eventually joint problems, stress on the body, than men with poorer leverage but better endurance. For example, one of the biggest guys in my gym I once saw doing concentration virus with 20lb dumbell but huge reps. He was a 20" arm guy and most guys would need double that weight for the same zmount of reps.

I was thinking about that article and what I've seen in the gym since and while there were exceptions, the lower weight handling guys, maybe even due to better form, have often many times had huge size, doing 225lb squats for 30 reps or more.

And all my life, I was of the mind that if I wasn't getting stronger, I wasn't progressing. But today, whether there is 315 on my shoulders or 495, I'm good for about the same amount of reps with each. WTH? So perhaps I went terribly wrong somewhere.

No debate sir. Not trying to challenge your question at all.

And I’m saying this as someone who spent the first half of my career powerlifting before thennn chasing size. And this question is useful because the average gym bro truly has no idea what he’s doing. We all see kids in the gym lifting the same weights over and over again and being mystified as to why they see no results. Benching 185 every chest day for a year and truly thinking they are an outlier and “cannot grow.” No, you’re not special. You just aren’t understanding stimulus. It’s so weird because guys come onto boards all the time and say, “bodybuilding is easy. Train hard, eat and rest and everything will happen.” Yes, If u understand the basics, it is easy. But the vast majority of people don’t understanding training or food at alllll. It’s is veryyy complicated to them. The idea of doing or adding a little more (reps, sets, calories, cardio) is a completely foreign concept to them. They think doing the same thing will forever elicit a response.

 

[Sully1234]

Fortitude Training because of its variety of techniques. Heavy loading, sarcoplasmic work as well as other tools in the tool box.

Okay you convinced me I'm buying the damn e-book after putting it off for 4 years lol.

 

[OuchThatHurts]

Even if one trains in the 15 rep range you will have to get progressively stronger to get bigger.. if your benching 225 pounds for 15 good clean reps.. then in a years time are benching 275 pounds for 15 you are going to be bigger.

Okay, that makes perfect sense. But what if he had to do 20 reps? What abouzbout PLers who keep the same weight class at 202 and are benching 450 lbs? And increase every year? Can squat a half a ton? What then?

 

[qbkilla]

I'd do a simple bro split about 8 sets to failure per part. Mix in rest pause. I could a rp as 3 sets so arm day may be

Drag curl 20-30rp
Dips 20-30rp
Cable curl 20-30rp
Extension 20-30rp
A set of 21's
A set of high rep db skulls

Heavy work, then finish with a pump.

For weak parts I'd hit them a second time but no more than 2 parts to prioritize or it will be come too complex

A few sets of arms after legs maybe. Say a giant set 5 exercises for 2x frequency in the lagging part


2 off days for cardio
Focus on getting stronger on RP sets
Eat 350g protein, calories are set based on how aggressive I want to be (grow lean, accept fat gain)

 

[comedycentral]

I’d potentially forget about the frequency trap that I fell into in later training years. I made decent progress for a long time with Dorian’s split which based on the exercises I did pretty much had frequency at twice a week anyway. Low ish volume and reps in the 8-12 range.