Training Volume

[TheRoid]

Thats why I said if I could go back and tell myself how to do it, Id probably spend 3 -4 years strength training and then switch. Not sure what the ideal time would be. Probably different for everyone. 7 - 8 years is a long time for sure.

Certainly NOT my 20 years spent chasing the unicorn of a neverending strenght increase in the low reps range. Grotesque situation, since I needed to get heavier and bigger if I had to go down that path, and eating big simply made me fatter as my training volume didn't warrant all that extra food.

 

[TheRoid]

Certainly NOT my 20 years spent chasing the unicorn of a neverending strenght increase in the low reps range. Grotesque situation, since I needed to get heavier and bigger if I had to go down that path, and eating big simply made me fatter as my training volume didn't warrant all that extra food.

On top of that, my SFR (stimulus to fatigue ratio) absolutely sucked for hypertrophy since the bulk of my training was basically powerlifting movements with just a few extras here and there.
A fried CNS with muscles fully recovered much sooner than the next session.

 

[KillerStack]

"Low" volume - higher volume over the bare minimum rarely tranlates to more growth. This is no argument, it would need to be elaborated, just a short statement of MY experience.

"Higher" frequency rarely translates to more growth either i.e bodypart specializing i.e. bringing up weaker bodyparts by doing more volume and/or higher frequency rarely works to satisfaction.

The "Dorian" program is almost as good as it gets from a hypertrophy standpoint. But then many claim Dorian, and even Mentzer etc, did just as much volume as "everyone else" so wtf Lol.

Strength is nice. Strength is correlated to muscle size. But that doesn't mean you will necessarily grow more by focusing on strength. Genes dictate most things. Strength obsession translates or correlates to more injuries in cases. I trained for strength. Still train for strength because I had low potential for size, no matter what. If I lived again I would have focused way more on drugs and letting them "do the work." Escalate dosages in a reasonable time frame and you get to your potential as dosages increase. Then it stops, fairly quickly if using all current drug avenues (e.g AAS, GH and insulin mainly at this point in time. Drug use and its potential for inducing gains mostly peaked in the mid 90s in my opinion, when everyone across the board increased the test dosages in particular) You are as big as your doses until you reach your potential which sometimes occurs very quickly.

 

[headtrainer]

LATS essentially ended the thread with his posts. You are just not going to put on the size you want without also getting stronger. The most impressive jacked dudes Ive met were all strong af. OFC you cant perpetually get stronger forever. Theres a limit. And this is where the bad faith arguments against strength enter the conversation as it pertains to putting on muscle.

I can guarantee for most that the brosplit long term is a guaranteed track to stale workouts and stagnation in gains. Sure we see these old school Weider principals in action in the golden era (by design...) but we completely ignore the background in strength training the golden era guys had. It's easier and more approachable to tell guys that more reps is better and it's probably safer from a legal liability standpoint as well.

If I could start over again, I would spend the first 3-4 years working on strength training (not PL'ing). I would tell myself to throw away that bodybuilding bible and tell myself to never forget that theres always someone trying to sell you something whether it's Ostrich eggs or a training plan. There's always some "secret" or "hack". What's inside those flex and Muscular Development magazines is a severely watered down version of the truth...if youre lucky and it's not straight up bullshit.

Progressive overload. Increase in dosages overtime. Increased protein and food intake. And this is just my opinion because theres a lot of guys who do it and are successful....dont get fat.

You want to know what’s a real eye-opener! The biggest and most symmetrical bodybuilder in our gym doesn’t lift heavy weights! He’s gifted on every single body part. He can lift heavy weights if he wants, but he chooses not to in fear of getting injured and not being able to do his job. He does a lot of volume ( around 20 sets per body part once a week) to make gains and his intensity is good but no where near what I train with. He’s basically a pro bodybuilder that doesn’t want to compete. A lot of guys are in the gym looking for the best steroid stack and killing theirselves trying to train with a progressive over load, while this genetically gifted black guy makes them look as if they’ve never lifted weights. Now that’s the truth!!!

 

[Bleed]

Well yeah. Genetics is everything.

Everyone has a black friend as big as Ronnie Coleman who is the exception to the rule.

You want to know what’s a real eye-opener! The biggest and most symmetrical bodybuilder in our gym doesn’t lift heavy weights! He’s gifted on every single body part. He can lift heavy weights if he wants, but he chooses not to in fear of getting injured and not being able to do his job. He does a lot of volume ( around 20 sets per body part once a week) to make gains and his intensity is good but no where near what I train with. He’s basically a pro bodybuilder that doesn’t want to compete. A lot of guys are in the gym looking for the best steroid stack and killing theirselves trying to train with a progressive over load, while this genetically gifted black guy makes them look as if they’ve never lifted weights. Now that’s the truth!!!

 

[headtrainer]

Well yeah. Genetics is everything.

Everyone has a black friend as big as Ronnie Coleman who is the exception to the rule.

Exactly! And this showed me a long time ago that always trying to train with a progressive overload is not going to make me look like a genetic freak. Bodybuilding is mostly genetics, not one’s training style. For example, Dorian Yates got huge because of his genetics, not his training style. It’s best to use some common sense and avoid injury if at all possible. Getting injured by always trying to lift heavier weights is what really sets us back and prevents us from making the best gains our genetics will allow.

 

[Bleed]

Dorian's genetics allowed him to get huge. Yes. But his gear usage, recovery, training, and the work is what made him mr olympia. If he half assed it in the gym and played professional beer pong instead, he would not have been a Multi Mr Olympia.

Remember, toward the end of his career, dorian was getting injured. Genetics didnt stop that.

Exactly! And this showed me a long time ago that always trying to train with a progressive overload is not going to make me look like a genetic freak. Bodybuilding is mostly genetics, not one’s training style. For example, Dorian Yates got huge because of his genetics, not his training style. It’s best to use some common sense and avoid injury if at all possible. Getting injured by always trying to lift heavier weights is what really sets us back and prevents us from making the best gains our genetics will allow.

 

[headtrainer]

Dorian's genetics allowed him to get huge. Yes. But his gear usage, recovery, training, and the work is what made him mr olympia. If he half assed it in the gym and played professional beer pong instead, he would not have been a Multi Mr Olympia.

Remember, toward the end of his career, dorian was getting injured. Genetics didnt stop that.

I agree 100%. What I’m saying is Dorian Yates and Ronnie Coleman could have trained more reasonable like Jay Cutler and have been just as big without all the injuries because they are genetically gifted. There is no magic training routine, diet and steroid cycle that’s going to make the rest of us look like those guys because we don’t have their superior genetics.

 

[Golden]

you are 100% right but I would introduce a high volume earlier because in fact it was only about 2 years ago that I increased the volume strongly and I had strength 7-8 years ago

What do you consider or mean by high volume?

 

[hawkmoon]

I'd probably train much as I do now because after all these years as it's what's proved most effective.

As far as the relationship of size and strength, I like the way Dante put it. It's not an absolute, but rather proportional relationship.

It's not how strong you are, but how much stronger you become. There were a few kids I knew in high school who could bench 315, whereas I could only do 225. But when I had worked up to 415 I was far thicker than they were when doing 415.

Developing the consistent strength above and beyond the advantages given by joint construction, tendon strength, and other genetic "gifts" is what puts the muscle on.

 

[luki7788]

What do you consider or mean by high volume?

Something like 15-25 sets per muscle group (working sets)

 

[Golden]

Something like 15-25 sets per muscle group (working sets)

Starting out in the mid 90’s and being from UK, Dorian’s style was a massive influence on many of us. We were bull headed though and never even considered trying a more traditional volume approach. Probably would have led to less wear and tear on my joints over the years if I had

 

[TheOtherOne55]

I agree 100%. What I’m saying is Dorian Yates and Ronnie Coleman could have trained more reasonable like Jay Cutler and have been just as big without all the injuries because they are genetically gifted. There is no magic training routine, diet and steroid cycle that’s going to make the rest of us look like those guys because we don’t have their superior genetics.

I don’t agree with the first part.
Also, let’s stop comparing Dorian injuries to Ronnie injuries. Nothing even closely comparable. Dorian tore his tricep, Ronnie ruined his back. Dorian is walking about just as spry as Jay is.

From being around other huge guys, some are generic freaks others are not. The non genetic freaks usually have to push intensity a bit harder than the true freaks. Aka Jordan Peters cannot train like Dexter Jackson. Chances are, if you don’t explode with muscle after the first year or two in the gym, you’re going to have to rely on some sort of progressive overload and intensity setup to progress. Cases of guys like Dexter, Ronnie or Phil who exploded as mutants on their first newbies years are few and far between. What’s interesting is that Ronnie had that newbie explosion AND THEN still trained with intensity…is that the reason he is the GOAT? What if someone had grabbed Phil early and got his strong AF and dialed up his training intensity?

 

[luki7788]

Starting out in the mid 90’s and being from UK, Dorian’s style was a massive influence on many of us. We were bull headed though and never even considered trying a more traditional volume approach. Probably would have led to less wear and tear on my joints over the years if I had

but note that for most of his career Dorian did 2-3 working sets for each exercise, only towards the end of his career did he switch to one set because he wasn't really increasing in size at this point, he just needed to maintain what he had so 1 set was quite enough

 

[Swifto]

I don’t agree with the first part.
Also, let’s stop comparing Dorian injuries to Ronnie injuries. Nothing even closely comparable. Dorian tore his tricep, Ronnie ruined his back. Dorian is walking about just as spry as Jay is.

From being around other huge guys, some are generic freaks others are not. The non genetic freaks usually have to push intensity a bit harder than the true freaks. Aka Jordan Peters cannot train like Dexter Jackson. Chances are, if you don’t explode with muscle after the first year or two in the gym, you’re going to have to rely on some sort of progressive overload and intensity setup to progress. Cases of guys like Dexter, Ronnie or Phil who exploded as mutants on their first newbies years are few and far between. What’s interesting is that Ronnie had that newbie explosion AND THEN still trained with intensity…is that the reason he is the GOAT? What if someone had grabbed Phil early and got his strong AF and dialed up his training intensity?

From what I understand, Ronnie's back is ruined from surgery that went wrong.

 

[Swifto]

I agree 100%. What I’m saying is Dorian Yates and Ronnie Coleman could have trained more reasonable like Jay Cutler and have been just as big without all the injuries because they are genetically gifted. There is no magic training routine, diet and steroid cycle that’s going to make the rest of us look like those guys because we don’t have their superior genetics.

Thats just an assumption though and when looking at bodybuilding, the strongest bodybuilders are most often the biggest.

I think it's safer to assume Ronnie was bigger as he lifted heavier weights.

Yes, Ronnie's genetics are ridiculous and better than Jays.

 

[jaxino]

15-25 working sets it's like 8 to 12 exercise per muscle group and to me seems just excessive....

Usually when i do Chest and Bis i do 4 exercise 2 working sets for Chest, 3 exercise 2 working sets for Biceps.... If I do more it's like trash volume, because the effort is low compared to other sets.

All the guys from Jansen grow on just top set + back off sets the volume isn't high at all.... More like 8-12 sets for muscle group...

 

[FK86]

15-25 working sets it's like 8 to 12 exercise per muscle group and to me seems just excessive....

You’re applying a low volume mindset of working sets being to failure to a higher volume concept, which usually entails stopping shy of it. 15-25 sets can be done in 3-5 exercises, or even less with something like GVT.

Either pyramiding up and having the initial sets in higher rep ranges, or doing warm-up sets and then utilizing sets across, like a 5x5, is how you get in more volume (workload).

 

[qbkilla]

"Low" volume - higher volume over the bare minimum rarely tranlates to more growth. This is no argument, it would need to be elaborated, just a short statement of MY experience.

"Higher" frequency rarely translates to more growth either i.e bodypart specializing i.e. bringing up weaker bodyparts by doing more volume and/or higher frequency rarely works to satisfaction.

The "Dorian" program is almost as good as it gets from a hypertrophy standpoint. But then many claim Dorian, and even Mentzer etc, did just as much volume as "everyone else" so wtf Lol.

Strength is nice. Strength is correlated to muscle size. But that doesn't mean you will necessarily grow more by focusing on strength. Genes dictate most things. Strength obsession translates or correlates to more injuries in cases. I trained for strength. Still train for strength because I had low potential for size, no matter what. If I lived again I would have focused way more on drugs and letting them "do the work." Escalate dosages in a reasonable time frame and you get to your potential as dosages increase. Then it stops, fairly quickly if using all current drug avenues (e.g AAS, GH and insulin mainly at this point in time. Drug use and its potential for inducing gains mostly peaked in the mid 90s in my opinion, when everyone across the board increased the test dosages in particular) You are as big as your doses until you reach your potential which sometimes occurs very quickly.

I find the bold interesting. Imo if someone has a lagging part, and it's not an issue of poor exercise selection/form/mind muscle connection, I would think the next steps would be to increase volume and or frequency?

 

[massnup]

I find the bold interesting. Imo if someone has a lagging part, and it's not an issue of poor exercise selection/form/mind muscle connection, I would think the next steps would be to increase volume and or frequency?

Dave Palumbo says if you have a lagging body part more training is not the answer its because that bodypart does not recover good and you need less sets but more intense sets.