Training Volume

[danieltx]

From what I understand, Ronnie's back is ruined from surgery that went wrong.

His back problems date back to playing college football. He damaged a disc at that time, never got it fixed, then years of crazy lifting and being huge led to all the surgeries.

 

[BIG1512]

Something like 15-25 sets per muscle group (working sets)

So you really up the volume from what it was? What would a normal workout look like say for delts?
Thanks

 

[Dens228]

Okay, that makes perfect sense. But what if he had to do 20 reps? What abouzbout PLers who keep the same weight class at 202 and are benching 450 lbs? And increase every year? Can squat a half a ton? What then?

I did strict PL routines for years. I started out as a 198 squatting 400. Ended as a 242 squatting mid 800's, no super supps as I chose to compete in drug tested. Back in those days my high rep sets were maybe 5........

 

[luki7788]

So you really up the volume from what it was? What would a normal workout look like say for delts?
Thanks

but low volume or high volume training?

 

[BIG1512]

but low volume or high volume training?

The higher volume

 

[FK86]

The are a few different ways to approach higher volume. If someone can squat 455 for eight reps to true failure this is how they might approach a top set with a lower volume approach:

Bar x 20
135 x 10
225 x 6
315 x 4
405 x 2

455 x 8 (true failure)

The preceding sets are classified as warm-up sets because not enough reps are done to be taxing. They prime the nervous system and minimize the risky of injury through weight acclimation.

Higher Volume Example 1 – Sets Across

Bar x 20
135 x 10
225 x 6
315 x 4
405 x 2

455, 5 x 5

The warm-up sets are still necessary but there are more work sets. The person can complete eight reps to failure but stops at five because their goal is to get five reps on all five sets with the same weight.

Higher Volume Example 2 – Pyramiding: Same Reps on All Sets

Bar x 10
135 x 10
225 x 10

315 x 10
365 x 10
405 x 10
455 x AMRAP – Fatigue would likely prevent getting 8 reps in this scenario. Failure on this set is optional and they wouldn’t move up in weight until they got 10. The choice to up the weight on only the last set or on all four of the work sets is up to the individual.

The initial three would just be warm-ups while the next four would be work sets because of how close the load is to what they are maximally capable of (455), and the tighter increments in moving up in weight while trying to commit to the same number of reps.

This is similar to Ronnie Coleman. In The Unbelievable he presses the 200 lb fire hydrants for twelve reps after doing the 170s for twelve reps. If he had only done a few reps with the 170s he might have gotten more than 15 with the 200s. I’m not saying it’s wrong. It’s just crazy to think of him getting almost 20 with the 200s.

Higher Volume Example 3 – Reverse Pyramid

Bar x 20
135 x 10
225 x 6

315 x 20
365 x 12
405 x 8
455 x Nope

Realistically, this might be the least desirable approach. Other than the first set, I doubt you’d make those reps on the subsequent sets because of fatigue.

Higher Volume Example 4 – German Volume Training

455 x 8 = 575 ORM
60% of 575 = 345

Bar x 20
135 x 10
225 x 6
275 x 2

345, 10 x 10


A final note on cumulative fatigue. I know a lot of people dislike a higher volume approach because it may reduce the loads they work with. Mechanical tension is the main driver of hypertrophy and it will still be accomplished. Lets say your current low volume chest workout for two working sets each with certain weights you’ve been logging is

Incline barbell presses
Flat dumbbell presses
HS decline presses

If you were to change the order of those exercises, you would have to change the loads as well. If the incline barbell presses are done with 275 when it’s the first exercise, and 225 if it’s placed third, you still get maximum mechanical tension. The workout will produce identical results. Your muscles do not recognize that there isn’t 275 on the bar and decide not to grow or adapt. Whether fresh or fatigued, if the tension under load is maximized and progressive overload is applied, you will grow.

 

[lynxeffect1]

Something like 15-25 sets per muscle group (working sets)

I see such a variety in what people call high volume and working sets . If i can do 150ibs dumbells for 6reps in my last set then the previous 3 for me have to be to failure too or close enough with higher reps, eg 120x 15, 130x 12 , 140x 10 to call it volume . For something like t-bar rows it might be 4sets of 6plates x 10reps. Are you the same in this regard ?

 

[KillerStack]

I find the bold interesting. Imo if someone has a lagging part, and it's not an issue of poor exercise selection/form/mind muscle connection, I would think the next steps would be to increase volume and or frequency?

Yes exactly, that's how you would think logically. It's just that I haven't seen it pan out in practise. And as I always say, the proportions you have shortly after you start training are the proportions you end up with. Mostly, rare exceptions are always there. If bodypart specialization worked well guys wouldn't resort to Synthol. That's pretty much the only thing that can change your proportions - massive scar tissue volume from the SEO Lol.

My favorite pet peeve is pros or fans saying they will/should work on their "lower lats" or "quad sweep." Lol.

 

[TheRoid]

Yes exactly, that's how you would think logically. It's just that I haven't seen it pan out in practise. And as I always say, the proportions you have shortly after you start training are the proportions you end up with. Mostly, rare exceptions are always there. If bodypart specialization worked well guys wouldn't resort to Synthol. That's pretty much the only thing that can change your proportions - massive scar tissue volume from the SEO Lol.

My favorite pet peeve is pros or fans saying they will/should work on their "lower lats" or "quad sweep." Lol.

Specialization routines can work, when handled properly.
That's exactly why they usually fail miserably, people just add a bunch of wothless crap on top of what they're usually doing and that's it.

 

[qbkilla]

Yes exactly, that's how you would think logically. It's just that I haven't seen it pan out in practise. And as I always say, the proportions you have shortly after you start training are the proportions you end up with. Mostly, rare exceptions are always there. If bodypart specialization worked well guys wouldn't resort to Synthol. That's pretty much the only thing that can change your proportions - massive scar tissue volume from the SEO Lol.

My favorite pet peeve is pros or fans saying they will/should work on their "lower lats" or "quad sweep." Lol.

Good points. I feel like when people do specialization routines there probably is some placebo affect too. "I'm hitting arms every day, let's look in the mirror, yeah I think their growing they have to be" , plus the pump.

 

[KTT]

Dan Duchaine: I think bodybuilders really have to start training for size, instead of strength. There is a difference between strength, which is neuroadaptation, and size. Your body will find the most efficient way of getting strong. The most efficient way is to neurolly make yourself stronger, because it doesn’t really involve any calories. You don’t have to add muscle, you don’t have to burn more energy. Just contact the mass that you have more violently. I've had a lot of thinking about this. People keep asking me, "who writes a great training book." And they all suck. They really are all wrong, I think. I think the secret is never doing more than one set of anything. I mean, if u do four sets of barbell curls all in a row, every set your adapting because of the same plane of movement. Why don’t u just randomly pick a different exercise everytime you have to do a set for biceps. I'm sure you can find eight or nine different movements or machines to get eight or nine sets and never repeat yourself. The same thing with everything else. On the bench press and the squat, the best bench pressers and squatters don’t necessarily have the best chest or legs.

 

[qbkilla]

I think the best approach is to not force a choice between one or the other. You can choose overload and volume.

Triceps day
First exercise is dip machine 20-30 rp, add weight or reps every week.
Then after that throw in say 5x12-20 of overhead cable extension. Get a mind muscle connection, get the volume in. I think this is what powerbuilding routines do except they have a strength day and volume day for each part.

 

[KillerStack]

Good points. I feel like when people do specialization routines there probably is some placebo affect too. "I'm hitting arms every day, let's look in the mirror, yeah I think their growing they have to be" , plus the pump.

My other outrageous claim is that we probably spend 99% of the time actually regressing or regaining size, very little time is spent actually growing new muscle. A lot of people are always claming to be growing, meanwhile nothing much happened in the last 10 or 20 years. And I've had this depressing realization about myself Lol. Someone on here said even after decades of training he almost always makes a tiny gain in each workout, say half a pound increase in weight or a rep more in some set. But it can't be true, after decades it would add up to something fantastical. I think people who track progress meticulously switch out movements when they stall and then progress again in the new movement or an old movement they picked up again. But has the limit strength really increased? Restarting an old movement usually has me doubling the reps with a given weight from first to second workout, but lifetime PBs are really hard to come by Lol.

 

[headtrainer]

I don’t agree with the first part.
Also, let’s stop comparing Dorian injuries to Ronnie injuries. Nothing even closely comparable. Dorian tore his tricep, Ronnie ruined his back. Dorian is walking about just as spry as Jay is.

From being around other huge guys, some are generic freaks others are not. The non genetic freaks usually have to push intensity a bit harder than the true freaks. Aka Jordan Peters cannot train like Dexter Jackson. Chances are, if you don’t explode with muscle after the first year or two in the gym, you’re going to have to rely on some sort of progressive overload and intensity setup to progress. Cases of guys like Dexter, Ronnie or Phil who exploded as mutants on their first newbies years are few and far between. What’s interesting is that Ronnie had that newbie explosion AND THEN still trained with intensity…is that the reason he is the GOAT? What if someone had grabbed Phil early and got his strong AF and dialed up his training intensity?

Dorian tore his tricep, bicep and supraspinatus tendon. Ronnie suffered a very serious injury to his back, hips, and neck due to extremely heavy weightlifting. I also think one of his shoulders is messsd up. In regards to Phil, he does super slow reps using less weight to prevent injury. He claims moving the weight slowly ( squeezing the contraction and using a slow negative) is what build true strength. If Phil’s body could have withstood training like Ronnie, it’s possible he might have been a little bigger. But I believe Phil would have constantly injured himself with Ronnie’s style of training—setting himself back and being smaller than he currently is today. Ronnie is built tougher than the vast majority of people. That’s why he was so strong. But Ronnie’s training style eventually caught up with him. I believe if Ronnie had trained like Phil, he would have still won just as many Olympias and, maybe more, due to his genetics. I don’t think it was a change in Ronnie’s training style that progressed him forward before he ever won an Olympia. I believe it was his increased knowledge about the use of hormones and learning how to peak for a show that helped him.

 

[qbkilla]

My other outrageous claim is that we probably spend 99% of the time actually regressing or regaining size, very little time is spent actually growing new muscle. A lot of people are always claming to be growing, meanwhile nothing much happened in the last 10 or 20 years. And I've had this depressing realization about myself Lol. Someone on here said even after decades of training he almost always makes a tiny gain in each workout, say half a pound increase in weight or a rep more in some set. But it can't be true, after decades it would add up to something fantastical. I think people who track progress meticulously switch out movements when they stall and then progress again in the new movement or an old movement they picked up again. But has the limit strength really increased? Restarting an old movement usually has me doubling the reps with a given weight from first to second workout, but lifetime PBs are really hard to come by Lol.

I have asked this same question myself. I always use the DC style method of once I can't gain a lb or rep on a movement, swap it for a new one and keep progressing. I have never been meticulous enough to look back and see if I switched back to a movement at a later point in time, if I actually kept my strength and am able to bust past it and do higher weights. I'm sure there are people who keep enough old log books and may know lol

 

[luki7788]

Dorian tore his tricep, bicep and supraspinatus tendon. Ronnie suffered a very serious injury to his back, hips, and neck due to extremely heavy weightlifting. I also think one of his shoulders is messsd up. In regards to Phil, he does super slow reps using less weight to prevent injury. He claims moving the weight slowly ( squeezing the contraction and using a slow negative) is what build true strength. If Phil’s body could have withstood training like Ronnie, it’s possible he might have been a little bigger. But I believe Phil would have constantly injured himself with Ronnie’s style of training—setting himself back and being smaller than he currently is today. Ronnie is built tougher than the vast majority of people. That’s why he was so strong. But Ronnie’s training style eventually caught up with him. I believe if Ronnie had trained like Phil, he would have still won just as many Olympias and, maybe more, due to his genetics. I don’t think it was a change in Ronnie’s training style that progressed him forward before he ever won an Olympia. I believe it was his increased knowledge about the use of hormones and learning how to peak for a show that helped him.

slow reps??? I see fast reps in partial range of motion in every one of his training videos

 

[headtrainer]

slow reps??? I see fast reps in partial range of motion in every one of his training videos

He’s preaching slow reps in this video.

 

[luki7788]

He’s preaching slow reps in this video.

this is one demo video - not a real workout

see other recordings

 

[AllOkJumpmaster]

Specialization routines can absolutely work, but there is more to it than just increasing volume and / or frequency for the body part. I have had much success with clients (especially women) using the protocol Lyle Mcdonald created and made a few tweaks. It is really effective in my opinion, the biggest issue most guys run into tis they can't wrap their heads around training the rest of the muscle groups at maintenance. They almost always end up abandoning the cycle because they feel like they are not doing enough for their other body parts and "losing gainz" (hint: they aren't)

 

[TheRoid]

Specialization routines can absolutely work, but there is more to it than just increasing volume and / or frequency for the body part. I have had much success with clients (especially women) using the protocol Lyle Mcdonald created and made a few tweaks. It is really effective in my opinion, the biggest issue most guys run into tis they can't wrap their heads around training the rest of the muscle groups at maintenance. They almost always end up abandoning the cycle because they feel like they are not doing enough for their other body parts and "losing gainz" (hint: they aren't)

Exactly.
When people make broad recommendations like "put everything else on maintenance, it leaves trainees with a lot of room to screw things up by doing too much and inhibiting results.
After all, what does "maintenance" really mean? You need to define it. For me, it means you need to accept that your focus is your focus, and everything else takes a back seat. Accept it.
So when I tell someone to put something on maintenance, I mean they should train it as little as necessary. That means not losing strength or mass. In most cases, this is a lot less than you believe.