I'm going to kick myself for doing this...

[hghanadrol1]

Why is it that in most of the threads where I read about a guy that has been on for a very long time or is taking very high dosages is TYPICALLYwritten by a guy who isn't that big? .

Does it really matter how big that person is???? Maybe their genetic makeup wont allow them to grow anymore or become a "mass giant"...Maybe going clean doesnt work for them...

There are alot of variables that you are not considering in your question...

 

[DOGGCRAPP]

I think many people could or would accomplish that with that incentive, thats the kind of determination one needs.

I surely agree and even if they didnt make it....it would put them on a path to being successful as a bodybuilder......(and thats what this endeavor is all about isnt it?)

So many guys jumping from 'this to that', or 'is it that over there' or maybe if i do this.....but put "oh i can win 20 million dollars?" into the equation and I bet you would see some natural gains on this board like no other.

 

[jalsmiley]

Here is a very good question to ask yourself.....

I am going to offer you 20 million dollars if you can accomplish the following. I want you 20 pounds heavier next year at this time at the same exact bodyfat percentage you are now. The stipulation is this....Im going to rigorously drug test you at an Olympic Testing level every 2 weeks for the entire year....if you pass for the entire year Im going to give you 500k just for trying (even if you dont gain the 20 pounds)....if you fail one test, just one....your gone, nothing. Think about that for a second. What would you do? How would you go about it. I know what i would do. I would be a 7 day a week treadmill-walking, heavy ass lifting, 'screw the freaking BMR' over and above shoveling in boatloads of clean food, especially at spongelike times (post cardio, post lifting), meticulous with my nutritional supplemental [bodyfat burning, recovery, and muscle building environment (leucine, creatine etc)] MF.

Ask yourself that same question and really think out the answer and how you would accomplish it....and you might find yourself with alot less guesswork and alot more gains.

let me preface this with i def dont do massive amounts and def not even close to on all year round, but to answer the above question...i doubt that there would be that many people guessing how to accomplish the above...because if 20million were the end result, we would just quit our jobs which im sure some of us like myself work 70plus hour weeks(with my commute factored in) and make 20lbs be our jobs 20million is a lot of loot!!....which as i think about it that could be answer to the original post...as you stated, dusty is in a class of his own with time and effort put into this sport...most simply do not have the time to go about it so naturally....its not my sport but i been following it for long time and i dont even try because i def dont have the time to devote...my short term little cycles get me where i like to be and i try and maintain for as long as my schedule allows me to and if fall below too much of where i like to be, i hit a little stuff

 

[whiteknucks]

I surely agree and even if they didnt make it....it would put them on a path to being successful as a bodybuilder......(and thats what this endeavor is all about isnt it?)

So many guys jumping from 'this to that', or 'is it that over there' or maybe if i do this.....but put "oh i can win 20 million dollars?" into the equation and I bet you would see some natural gains on this board like no other.

with all do respect Dante, that would be impossible for anyone that had already established 30-40 lbs of unnatural muscle and had been practicing the bb lifestyle for any amount of time for over a year...

 

[robot]

I surely agree and even if they didnt make it....it would put them on a path to being successful as a bodybuilder......(and thats what this endeavor is all about isnt it?)

So many guys jumping from 'this to that', or 'is it that over there' or maybe if i do this.....but put "oh i can win 20 million dollars?" into the equation and I bet you would see some natural gains on this board like no other.

This is sounding a bit too much like rhetoric.

a) Most would fail.
b) "Gaining weight without aas" vs. "Gaining weight with aas" would put them on a path to being successful as a bodybuilder? aas does not preclude quality eating or training.
c) That's what this endeavor is all about?? - What is this endeavor all about and to whom? My endeavor is to get to 250'ish @ 8% at the moment for example. Yours is something different.
d) Supplemented gains will always exceed natural gains. I think the natural bodybuilders are trying extremely hard without aas and that their physiques are pretty good examples of what can be achieved. More prize money would be nice but they are animals on both side of the moralizing.

The question was why do trainees stay on cycle without coming off. Whether you call it "blasting and cruising" or hrt and the answer is because it works.

I'll go put my fire suit on now.

 

[b-boy]

This is sounding a bit too much like rhetoric.

a) Most would fail.
b) "Gaining weight without aas" vs. "Gaining weight with aas" would put them on a path to being successful as a bodybuilder? aas does not preclude quality eating or training.
c) That's what this endeavor is all about?? - What is this endeavor all about and to whom? My endeavor is to get to 250'ish @ 8% at the moment for example. Yours is something different.
d) Supplemented gains will always exceed natural gains. I think the natural bodybuilders are trying extremely hard without aas and that their physiques are pretty good examples of what can be achieved. More prize money would be nice but they are animals on both side of the moralizing.

The question was why do trainees stay on cycle without coming off. Whether you call it "blasting and cruising" or hrt and the answer is because it works.

I'll go put my fire suit on now.

LOL you missed his whole point bro! WOW!!!

 

[robot]

LOL you missed his whole point bro! WOW!!!

I don't think I did. There was some moralizing, some arm waving, a bit of pontificating but with regard to the question, no real point.

hence the term rhetoric.

I'm an extremely big fan of Dante's work. The tangential argument that if we all were just more motivated and ate like machines and did our cardio while doing our heavy ass lifting (which I do and thank you for your recommendations Dante) that this would somehow negate the effectiveness of aas abuse is disingenuous.

 

[MightyJohn]

A little off topic...but I think some guys don't realize that using TOO MUCH or staying on TOO LONG "actually" hinders gains for a number of reasons

 

[whiteknucks]

A little off topic...but I think some guys don't realize that using TOO MUCH or staying on TOO LONG "actually" hinders gains for a number of reasons

john give us some examples. i agree that too high of a dose will eventually have deminishing returns or organ failure. but, what about using compounds for long periods of time?

 

[jrs]

oh come on. this board is full of banners and sponsors for all sorts of drugs

if one could make gains without AAS, why would one use it at all?

oh i forgot, AAS don't work.

there is a level of strength, size, hardness, vascularity, etc that WILL NOT be reached naturally and can ONLY come with AAS. that's... kind of why people use them.

sure somebody can stop using and still gain 10 pounds or not lose much... if you only measure by the scale and bodyweight is the only concern then i guess technically you're right- bodyweight isn't a function of AAS

 

[Dusty Hanshaw]

oh come on. this board is full of banners and sponsors for all sorts of drugs

if one could make gains without AAS, why would one use it at all?

oh i forgot, AAS don't work.

there is a level of strength, size, hardness, vascularity, etc that WILL NOT be reached naturally and can ONLY come with AAS. that's... kind of why people use them.

sure somebody can stop using and still gain 10 pounds or not lose much... if you only measure by the scale and bodyweight is the only concern then i guess technically you're right- bodyweight isn't a function of AAS

Did you even read what I wrote as the first post in this thread? I don't think anyone here is dumb enough to argue that anabolics don't work. What I said is why is it that so many guys never go off or are on such high doses.

I think the goal is to get as much lean tissue gains as possible either from year to year if you don't compete or from one show to the next if you do and I believe that if you spend most of the year clean and are perfect on diet, rest, etc.. and only go on for maybe 4-6 months out of the year you will gain more muscle mass than you would have if you were on all year. The point IMO is that being on all year is not the best way to get the biggest gains.

 

[Dusty Hanshaw]

Does it really matter how big that person is???? Maybe their genetic makeup wont allow them to grow anymore or become a "mass giant"...Maybe going clean doesnt work for them...

There are alot of variables that you are not considering in your question...

My experience has shown that TYPICALLY a guy who is constantly analyzing his gear is not as attentive with food, training, rest, etc..

Let me say again that some guys who use crazy doses and are on all of the time are huge but I still think they could have reached the same point without being on all of the time or on such high doses.

 

[jrs]

Did you even read what I wrote as the first post in this thread? I don't think anyone here is dumb enough to argue that anabolics don't work. What I said is why is it that so many guys never go off or are on such high doses.

I think the goal is to get as much lean tissue gains as possible either from year to year if you don't compete or from one show to the next if you do and I believe that if you spend most of the year clean and are perfect on diet, rest, etc.. and only go on for maybe 4-6 months out of the year you will gain more muscle mass than you would have if you were on all year. The point IMO is that being on all year is not the best way to get the biggest gains.

I should have specified that I wasn't replying to your post in particular, mainly the rest of the conversation in this thread. As a matter of fact, I agree with you. People use too much and for too long.

It's just completely false (FOR OTHERS) to imply that people can make similar or better progress naturally than with AAS. It's false to say that one can even MAINTAIN what they built when they stop using.

 

[robot]

My experience has shown that TYPICALLY a guy who is constantly analyzing his gear is not as attentive with food, training, rest, etc..

Let me say again that some guys who use crazy doses and are on all of the time are huge but I still think they could have reached the same point without being on all of the time or on such high doses.

"They could have reached the same point without being on all the time or on such high doses."

Sadly I disagree. All studies I have read show the anabolic response to aas is dose dependent and more is more. While it is entirely unhealthy, the more shit you do the more often the greater the results in terms of increased muscle mass will be.

Simply willing yourself, or being more motivated or eating or training better does not belie the fact that aas work and more aas work more.

This doesn't make muscle symmetrical or provide great bone structure. It doesn't remove the need for diet and training. It is however the sad fact of modern sport.

 

[whiteknucks]

Did you even read what I wrote as the first post in this thread? I don't think anyone here is dumb enough to argue that anabolics don't work. What I said is why is it that so many guys never go off or are on such high doses.

I think the goal is to get as much lean tissue gains as possible either from year to year if you don't compete or from one show to the next if you do and I believe that if you spend most of the year clean and are perfect on diet, rest, etc.. and only go on for maybe 4-6 months out of the year you will gain more muscle mass than you would have if you were on all year. The point IMO is that being on all year is not the best way to get the biggest gains.

Dusty how long have you been doing this, and in your opinion why is it more efficient at obtaining better gains than staying on?

 

[jrs]

Nobody's arguing that the affects of PROPER diet, training, rest, etc, in conjunction, aren't substantial. I do agree that people should put more effort in these areas than in how much, if any, they use.

I'll say that most people train so stupid and eat so crappy that they could get the affects of doubling their dose just by correcting these things.

But to deny what these very powerful hormones do and to imply that even similar results can be found (or kept if trying to maintain) by fixing a couple things and going natural.. nope. Complete misinformation

The somewhat recent study most of us reference that was published in the New England Journal of Medicine (2006?) showed that THE STUDY GROUP THAT USED TESTOSTERONE AND DID NOT WEIGHT TRAIN WHATSOEVER GAINED MORE MUSCLE MASS AND LOST MORE FAT THAN THE CONTROL GROUP WHO DID TRAIN AND KEEP A PROPER DIET NATURALLY. THIS WAS ONLY 300MG ENANTHATE.

 

[jrs]

Also, debating that going off and then on produces more gains is true, but completely misleading.

If somebody goes off and loses 10 pounds, then goes on a heavy cycle after a couple months, and they gain 20 lbs (of course the focus isn't just on bodyweight but bare with me), that 20 lbs is impressive.

In that example, that 20 lbs (or 100 lbs on squat or whatever) gained in 1-2 months is due to how much they lost in the first place as opposed to making slow steady gains.

 

[Moen]

Why is it that in most of the threads where I read about a guy that has been on for a very long time or is taking very high dosages is TYPICALLYwritten by a guy who isn't that big?

BAM!

Although I don't think it's because they are on constantly, rather these are the people for who it was just not meant to be (being big that is) for whatever reason. Cause there are obviously examples of huge guys who do stay on constantly as well.

Good observation though

 

[betito]

I have a frend who bulks heavy year round and only cycles to cut come summer time... the MF gains muscle from year to year like crazy, he has good genetics though

 

[Alex A]

Dusty.. You know were i stand on this and I suggest you just keep doing what your doing.... Its already paying off...

I have trained with and gotten to know... some good pros of the over the years...... and i can tell you .....its their training, diet, genetics and hard work that got them were they are today.

Everyone has access to the same stuff and if doing big cycles year long....is what makes a pro a pro.. then there would be a lot more pros out there..

I believe that genetics has a hell of a lot to do with it..... and hard ass work for a long time.. And i have to stress the words .... LONG TIME...

People dont realize that the top tier pros and some of the best amateurs have been at this for years... 10 plus years competing, year after year...

Nothing in life comes easy and fast but surely bodybuilding is a sport of longevity... Especially those at the highest level. I do believe that the bulk of your improvements on stage take place in the off season.. Nothing in life comes easy so expecting something so simple as staying on all year is the ticket, i think it will be a disapointment...