I'm going to kick myself for doing this...

[RONJON]

Wow! BUMP to the Top

VERY IMPORTANT THREAD HERE!

 

[king1033]

I am on Hrt year round, I must say tho being on hrt and on the high end of the range, I do feel a much better quality of life, plus coupled with my diet and training I keep getting nice slow and steady lean gains, but people dusty is right the power isnt in the drugs the power is in YOU and your digestive system for processing all that damn food lol.

 

[unoigo]

Great thread Dusty.

In terms on competitive BBers; IMO - a lot of guys stay on for long periods of time because they don't know any better. They assume they need to in order to reach their goals or get to the next level. There is so much conflicting info on the net. You have guys like yourself, B-Boy and others who are top level amatuers share some of their methods and it's much appreciated. I don't know what it is, whether some don't belive you guys or they think they don't have the genetics so they substitute it with AAS. However, there are some who do promote long cycles and there's where the conflicts are.

I wish more people like yourself, B-Boy, Phil, Alex, DC (the list goes on) and other trainers and competitors would share their experiences and methods. But I understand from the trainers standpoint, that's how they make their money.

 

[pesty4077]

I would like to add to Dusty's point. The older you get, the AAS will seem less important. Before any AAS use, I would line my training, diet and supplementation out. I now look into some supplementation, as preventive measure. Phil actually has a good supplement called cycle support, to me a must with AAS use. To take all year around at high doses is asking for problems. I'd make a bet alot aren't even getting proper bloodwork. I am not going to match up to any young guys with mass, but I sure can look better then most 50 year olds. My health is a concern at this point, I personally like to live alot longer. When I was younger, I didn't think that way.

 

[number twelve]

in response to the OP, i think the addictive nature of juice and addictive personality of some ppl needs to be considered. im not saying everyone falls into that category but i think it applies to many.

 

[tkav1980]

Hey dusty! did you start kicking yourself yet? honestly the people that get what you and dante and a few others are trying to say apreciate it. alot are missing the point though. and no there is no way that it can be explained so those people get it.

 

[PHIL HERNON]

Well

And I may kick myself for saying this.........BUT, I believe while you are young GO FOR IT....this is not something you can do heavily for 20-30 years....give it a good shot for 10-15 years and then go to TRT. I am not saying to be on HEAVY year round, but I think you should reach your goal while you are young then cruise away into the sunset and live a healthy life. I am unsure what megadosing means........but I think a reasonable progression is in order to be able to compete with the mass monsters as long as blood tests are in check. Yo-YO weight gain, yo-YO hormone use, anything from extreme to extreme is unhealthy physically and MENTALLY.

 

[thebrick]

I'll raise my hand

I am not saying its right or wrong but when I was younger I stayed on year-round for quite a number of years. I just enjoyed the way I looked and felt and how much better my time in the gym felt. It was my "high". My doses were certainly not what most consider mega doses these days though. I grew a lot, but I was also consistently training very intensely and eating big.

Now the flip side. I am in my mid 50's and I HAVE to use TRT. It is not an option. I am under a doc's supervision. Sometimes, to be honest, its a drag fucking with it every 6 months. But, putting testosterone on your prostate at my age has the potential to be like adding gasoline to a fire, so I wouldn't dare not use a doctor for that.

More flip side… Many of my joints are in terrible shape from using extreme weight for long periods of time, pushing myself relentlessly. If I had not been using for long periods I could not have done that and I am sure my shoulders and knees would be in much better condition than they are now. Somehow and for some reason, I still enjoy training. Go figure.

Bottom line. There are no free rides and we all do reap the consequences of the choices we make. Good AND bad.

 

[Shelby]

And I may kick myself for saying this.........BUT, I believe while you are young GO FOR IT....this is not something you can do heavily for 20-30 years....give it a good shot for 10-15 years and then go to TRT. I am not saying to be on HEAVY year round, but I think you should reach your goal while you are young then cruise away into the sunset and live a healthy life. I am unsure what megadosing means........but I think a reasonable progression is in order to be able to compete with the mass monsters as long as blood tests are in check. Yo-YO weight gain, yo-YO hormone use, anything from extreme to extreme is unhealthy physically and MENTALLY.

x2

 

[MightyJohn]

john give us some examples. i agree that too high of a dose will eventually have deminishing returns or organ failure. but, what about using compounds for long periods of time?

Side effects multiply over time & cause peoples gains to stop or hinder...think about how many people You know that stay on a while...now how many truly gain for that time

For example I know a guy 6'2...190lbs soaking wet that asked Me why he wasn't gaining anymore on 100mg D-bol a day(&yes they were real)...when I asked him a few questions I find out that the D-bol were killing his appetite & sleep(which set in for him after a few weeks)...if he'd have run ALOT less/shorter period of time he would have ate & rested properly & gained more

 

[Thick1]

Dusty.. You know were i stand on this and I suggest you just keep doing what your doing.... Its already paying off...

I have trained with and gotten to know... some good pros of the over the years...... and i can tell you .....its their training, diet, genetics and hard work that got them were they are today.

Everyone has access to the same stuff and if doing big cycles year long....is what makes a pro a pro.. then there would be a lot more pros out there..

I believe that genetics has a hell of a lot to do with it..... and hard ass work for a long time.. And i have to stress the words .... LONG TIME...

People dont realize that the top tier pros and some of the best amateurs have been at this for years... 10 plus years competing, year after year...

Nothing in life comes easy and fast but surely bodybuilding is a sport of longevity... Especially those at the highest level. I do believe that the bulk of your improvements on stage take place in the off season.. Nothing in life comes easy so expecting something so simple as staying on all year is the ticket, i think it will be a disapointment...

So Alex let me get this right you are saying that guys like Jay Cutler, Ronnie Coleman etc. have great genetics and that they don't stay on AAS all year round???

Jay Cutler is 5'9" competes at around 280 and off season goes up into the 300's and this is through his genetics? Please, his father is only 145 and even his own father said that Jay should be no more then 175. I would have to say that these pros DO NOT GET OFF as they make their money via their physique, year round guess posing and then to make to the big show. They cannot afford to get off.

But these are pros for the casual bb there is no need for anyone to go on high dosages year round as your body builds a tolerance to the drug and all you end up doing is taking more or stacking other drugs to just maintain what you have built. The problem here is DEPENDANCY=ADDICTION which causes most users not to come off.

 

[MR. BMJ]

And I may kick myself for saying this.........BUT, I believe while you are young GO FOR IT....this is not something you can do heavily for 20-30 years....give it a good shot for 10-15 years and then go to TRT. I am not saying to be on HEAVY year round, but I think you should reach your goal while you are young then cruise away into the sunset and live a healthy life. I am unsure what megadosing means........but I think a reasonable progression is in order to be able to compete with the mass monsters as long as blood tests are in check. Yo-YO weight gain, yo-YO hormone use, anything from extreme to extreme is unhealthy physically and MENTALLY.

I agree with this.

I don't really have a problem with guys using year around as long as they take the necessary health precautions, and don't skimp on diet and training. I don't know many guys myself who can come off cold-turkey and not lose their gains, maybe some of the genetic elite can do that, but I can't, nor most that I know. The first couple of months most people are suppressed anyway when they come totally off. IMO, coming off and on like a yo-yo has given me more sides than just staying on using smart dosing schemes. I can maybe see a young guy who recovers quickly to do well, and one who can take very low doses and get huge gains off of those doses to do well too. IMO, part of the genetic factor is how well somebody also responds to AAS (i'm assuming diet and training are optimal here), some can get away with HRT-500mg/wk dosing and grow like weeds, while some may need 2-3x that amount. The guys who respond best to low doses I would imagine can come totally off and have a better transition of recovery and keeping gains considering there is not much of a drop in the difference. In other words it will be easier to come off 250-500mg/wk than 1 gram+. That's just a guess on my part though.

I don't agree with most people using high doses year around. I don't use, but if I did, i'd use high amounts when it mattered (during diet prep), and drop down to very low levels afterwards. Diet and training always being number one.

I don't think anybody should use AAS unless they put diet, training, and health first, but I don't have a problem with people staying on all the time if those requirements are followed.

And obviously, if something makes you feel like crap, whether it be ephedrine, caffeine, AAS, certain foods, whatever, most people need to have the common sense to just throw in the towel and use a different route instead of complaining about what they are doing. I love ephedrine, but the day I can't tolerate it any longer, i'll toss it out in a second.

Good thread, I think a lot of people who abuse and do not use AAS responsibly, should read Dusty's first post and his overall message.

BMJ

 

[petedw]

So Alex let me get this right you are saying that guys like Jay Cutler, Ronnie Coleman etc. have great genetics and that they don't stay on AAS all year round???

I think you have misinterpreted what Alex is saying. Alex said that its their training, diet, genetics and hard work that got them were they are today.
He never said that the pro's don't stay on year round (many of them have to due to regular guest poses etc).

Many people stay on year round but they don't look like the Pros so genetics and dedication to training/diet/hard work must play there part. Otherwise like Alex said.....we'd have many more pros out there!

 

[Dusty Hanshaw]

And I may kick myself for saying this.........BUT, I believe while you are young GO FOR IT....this is not something you can do heavily for 20-30 years....give it a good shot for 10-15 years and then go to TRT. I am not saying to be on HEAVY year round, but I think you should reach your goal while you are young then cruise away into the sunset and live a healthy life. I am unsure what megadosing means........but I think a reasonable progression is in order to be able to compete with the mass monsters as long as blood tests are in check. Yo-YO weight gain, yo-YO hormone use, anything from extreme to extreme is unhealthy physically and MENTALLY.

First Phil I want to be sure that you know that I completely understand what you are saying and agree to a point but I do feel that you don't have to yoyo your bodyweight or fat to much if you are going on and off during the year.

For you guys who THINK you understand what Phil is saying also understand that this is a direct quote from Phil in regards to hiring him as a trainer.

"DO NOT SEEK ME OUT TO TRAIN YOU IF
1. You want to take diueretics, DNP, or IGF........My clients will tell you that we go down to no drugs to start.......I cant tell how my diet and training helps you when it is masked by steroids. Of course we all want champions and I have a few.............but this is long term and I will not want you contacting me in 10 years and telling me it was my fault that you have these issues......I have gotten in many arguments with guys that want to be HUGE....sorry man, if you aint HUGE now do not expect to get HUGE from me and my routine........My goal is lean muscle gains......efficient training and a diet that you can live with.........longevity and healthy muscle mass."

As you can see he would want to work with you clean to see what diet fits you best before letting you take anything. Also he doesn't advocate some of the more dangerous things a lot of athlete's do trying to overcome weak dedication and or genetics.

Dusty

 

[PHIL HERNON]

Yes

Exactly Dusty...........it is so hard for me to write stuff down........I have always had a problem with it and expressing myself correctly.......most clients of mine are Phone consultations.....I totally agree with what you are saying.........100%

 

[KillerStack]

What I said is why is it that so many guys never go off or are on such high doses.

I remember reading Dante's posts on Animal's board back in the day and he wrote a lot about blasting and cruising. And how most top guys never go off. Has he changed his opinion now, where he recommends going off completely and thinks you can keep growing while off?

Dusty, do you keep growing beyond 300lbs while off? Can you hit a highest new best body weight off everything? Sounds kind of strange but that's what you said, that you can keep growing clean.

Am I the only one who believes that you can continue to grow while being clean for the better part of the year?

I can't wrap my head around this. Why use anabolics at all?

Of course Dante, if you see this you can answer yourself. Just wanted to respond to this specific point.

 

[Dusty Hanshaw]

Actually both Ronnie and Jay used to drop doses significantly for months following the Olympia. That is why you would see them carrying more BF and were a bit smaller. Ronnie didn't even train three months out of the year. Also in the later parts of his career Keving Levrone wouldn't train, juice, or hardly eat for about eight months out of the year.

Now I understand that all of these guys are better genetically than 99.9% of the population and that Levrone wasn't getting better in the later part of his career but they did all take breaks.

Now doses, I imagine they are sky high but again these guys are paying their bills with the sport so maybe to them the risk is worth the reward. For a guy like me who couldn't hang with these guys no matter what I take I don't think it's worth it and I am still making large improvements year in and out.

 

[DOGGCRAPP]

I don't think I did. There was some moralizing, some arm waving, a bit of pontificating but with regard to the question, no real point.

hence the term rhetoric.

I'm an extremely big fan of Dante's work. The tangential argument that if we all were just more motivated and ate like machines and did our cardio while doing our heavy ass lifting (which I do and thank you for your recommendations Dante) that this would somehow negate the effectiveness of aas abuse is disingenuous.

No like bboy said you did totally lose my point...so please let me clarify it.

Am I saying anyone here can gain naturally like they can on the sauce, no I am not. At all. And to boot I dont care what anyone does as long as they dont recommend a dangerous route to others. If anyone wants to be juiced to the hilt for 25 years straight thats their priority to do so. My position is "it is possible to make gains naturally if you have healthy higher end endo test levels" and really are meticulous with things. Alot of steroid users arent...and they never miss a shot but they sure as hell miss meals. My argument is "if you put some motivation behind it (20 million possible) you would see some people gain naturally that didnt believe they could previously (as long as they have healthy endo test levels).
Alot of you guys take anything that goes against the grain of what you are doing now juicewise very personally. IM saying this.....if you truly wanted to you could make some gains naturally. That excludes some long time juicers and post 35-40 year old bodybuilders because they dont have higher end healthy testosterone levels. But we just saw a big thread by a guy who has been on for what 8 years straight from 20-28? You dont think he could have made some sufficient gains from 20-26 naturally and then taken the step up?
Anyone on TRT on this board my posts on this subject have absolutely nothing to do with you....zip, zilch....you guys do your thing. My problem is this. You got guys on this board blasting large dosages year round thinking there arent going to be any consequences. No blood work...any problems out of sight out of mind. My biggest concern with people doing that is RBC buildup. Oh you wont know it, you wont neccesarily feel bad, youll just drop dead one day. Alot of people read right over what happened to Maldorf and Big Bapper and think "oh that wont happen to me, that happened to those guys....thats them" ......Do you think when Maldorf wrote this post **broken link removed** do you think he had any inkling that a short time later he would have a heart attack that would so dramatically change his life. And thats from a guy who was getting his blood work done. How many people in this forum are TRULY getting their blood work done every 3 months?

Thats my problem with it up above. I personally feel its healthier to be on TRT than to live with an awful hormonal system. So Im not really talking much to guys 35 and up on this thread at all. But there are a slew of guys in their early 20's on this board who dont have that "mortality thought" built into their brain like alot of guys who are 35 and up do.

 

[KillerStack]

And I may kick myself for saying this.........BUT, I believe while you are young GO FOR IT....this is not something you can do heavily for 20-30 years....give it a good shot for 10-15 years and then go to TRT. I am not saying to be on HEAVY year round, but I think you should reach your goal while you are young then cruise away into the sunset and live a healthy life. I am unsure what megadosing means........but I think a reasonable progression is in order to be able to compete with the mass monsters as long as blood tests are in check. Yo-YO weight gain, yo-YO hormone use, anything from extreme to extreme is unhealthy physically and MENTALLY.

It's not something that would work even if you could stay healthy as the window when you'd peak is so short. You blink and it's gone. You wait til 25 to start juicing and then start taking 100mg of test for a couple of years etc and increase very slowly, concentrating on food and training and before you know it the guys you might have been able to compete against have already retired before you did your first show.

 

[Dusty Hanshaw]

I remember reading Dante's posts on Animal's board back in the day and he wrote a lot about blasting and cruising. And how most top guys never go off. Has he changed his opinion now, where he recommends going off completely and thinks you can keep growing while off?

Dusty, do you keep growing beyond 300lbs while off? Can you hit a highest new best body weight off everything? Sounds kind of strange but that's what you said, that you can keep growing clean.



I can't wrap my head around this. Why use anabolics at all?

Of course Dante, if you see this you can answer yourself. Just wanted to respond to this specific point.

I never said that you can grow past your previous high without ever touching anabolics if you have used in the past. What I said is that you can put on lean muscle mass without during a good part of the year clean. Then when you do go back on you can grow even faster and at the end of the day which to me is the next show YOU CAN be at an all time bodyweight high with as good or better bodyfat percentages as the last time you step onstage.

I think what you are missing is that as bodybuilders it is only important what we look like onstage. If I am lighter this offseason than last yet step onstage bigger and better than last time I was onstage then I have improved while not being on year round.