Its 99% genetics. Everyone is using pretty much the same amount of gear once your at an elite level. Its genetics that seperate the rest. I personally dont believe there is a pro or elite amature out there who does a pct and if they do their pct is more like a cruise.
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I'm going to kick myself for doing this...
- Thread starter Dusty Hanshaw
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This is some very informative stuff!
Dont mean to Hijack but..Question:
For the MANY youngsters who started TOO early and at TOO high of a dose..what would be the proper way to taper back to low more practical doses?
Once someone has done a handful of cycles at HIGH doses...how would they in the future get the most out of a cycle at say a TRT dose?..once they have gone too high for any significant amount of time is it too late to get anything from low doses?
Please discuss guys
Dont mean to Hijack but..Question:
For the MANY youngsters who started TOO early and at TOO high of a dose..what would be the proper way to taper back to low more practical doses?
Once someone has done a handful of cycles at HIGH doses...how would they in the future get the most out of a cycle at say a TRT dose?..once they have gone too high for any significant amount of time is it too late to get anything from low doses?
Please discuss guys
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it depends on if the trt dose is 12 wks or 3 years.
my body does well when it gets thrown off by changing the dose up. either by raising or lowering the dose.
i also trick it by working out. i havent lifted a weight in almost 4 weeks and i have moved up 5 lbs @ same body fat. i suppose when i start back i will have lost strength, only to quickly regain it and tear more fibers!!!
long story short, if test levels get low , you will waste away. why stop?
p.s. it doesnt take much to keep your levels HIGH...
Last edited:
buselmo
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Disclaimer: this post is not meant to offend anyone, nor is it directed towards anyone in particular. this is just a response to almost all the posts. sorry in advance if you are offended.
Not trying to prove a point, or try to push my opinions on someone else, but i'm just bored and have somethings i want to say
the same main arguement in the begining of the thread could be reversed and would hold true...
If you are on minimal amounts of gear, take lots of off time, and look great... why do you risk your health for nothing, or just a placing in a mediocre? why don't you just blast out on the gear and look fucking amazing instead of great, win some high end contests, and get supp endorsments and some money out of fucking up your health, instead of a two dollar trophy and a picture in the umpteenth thread in MD?
this could be said out of many things in life too... my main examples i usually use have to do with education... it's like the people who say "i don't know why this idiot spends 8 hours a day studying? he gets a B at best, and he doesn't even go out with friends... 10 years from now he might have a mediocre job, but he won't even have friends and he'd be all alone... look at me, i don't even study and i get a C and have time to party and go out whenever i want."
if this person studied harder and went out much less, he'd get A+ all throughout and probably find a job that pays 6 figures a year the minute he graduates... but he opted to go for the C and probably find a retarded job after he graduates just to have fun and go out with friends...
is one right and one wrong? no... it depends on what you want in life...
you're at 250 lbs with using minimal gear and take breaks?? good for you, if you used more you'd get bigger.
if you had bad genetics and you can't grow without double the amount of gear and double the time spent on, you'd do it without thinking twice if bodybuilding was your main goal and it really made you happy.
to you, that would be stupid...
to 99% of the population, what we're all doing is retarded, and a waste of time... hell, lifting weights is generally thought of as retarded, a waste of time, will drop your IQ, and will make you look ugly...
is there a right or wrong? not really... depends on what you really want in life.
My father thinks i'm a retard because i didn't spend most of my life studying, do nothing else, get a PhD in nuclearphytochemicalastronoelectomagnetic engineering and become a college professor...
I think he wasted his life for doing exactly that and having only 2 friends or something like that...
you have choices in life... the only one who can tell you if it's right or wrong is YOU AND ONLY YOU!!! UNLESS YOU ARE HURTING SOMEONE ELSE IN YOUR DECISION!!! and hurting as in physically and financially hurting someone else... i couldn't care less about someone else's emotions if i'm doing something they don't want me to do... for example, your wife or g/f or whatever tells you she wants you to quit or she can't stand it? if there's no reason for her to say that (real reason... like your spending 90% of the house's income on GH or shit like that, and not because "i think it's stupid to do what you're doing") there's no reason to even think about it...
Again, if god came down to you and said:
If you stop weight training, and just diet like ahuman being and do cardio, you'd live to be 100 years old
if you weight train and eat more, you'd live to be 80
if you use steroids on and off, you'd live to be 70
if you megadose all year long for 20 years, you'd live to be 55
which one will you choose?
that's the question you ask yourself, and no one can answer that except you. weigh the pro over the cons and do it.
as for growing... i don't care what anyone says... facts are facts... keeping training and diet constant... more gear = more gains... sorry, it's a fact. eat 3000 cals per day til you hit a plateau... double up your gear, slin, and GH then tell me you won't blow up, i dare you.
Not trying to prove a point, or try to push my opinions on someone else, but i'm just bored and have somethings i want to say
the same main arguement in the begining of the thread could be reversed and would hold true...
If you are on minimal amounts of gear, take lots of off time, and look great... why do you risk your health for nothing, or just a placing in a mediocre? why don't you just blast out on the gear and look fucking amazing instead of great, win some high end contests, and get supp endorsments and some money out of fucking up your health, instead of a two dollar trophy and a picture in the umpteenth thread in MD?
this could be said out of many things in life too... my main examples i usually use have to do with education... it's like the people who say "i don't know why this idiot spends 8 hours a day studying? he gets a B at best, and he doesn't even go out with friends... 10 years from now he might have a mediocre job, but he won't even have friends and he'd be all alone... look at me, i don't even study and i get a C and have time to party and go out whenever i want."
if this person studied harder and went out much less, he'd get A+ all throughout and probably find a job that pays 6 figures a year the minute he graduates... but he opted to go for the C and probably find a retarded job after he graduates just to have fun and go out with friends...
is one right and one wrong? no... it depends on what you want in life...
you're at 250 lbs with using minimal gear and take breaks?? good for you, if you used more you'd get bigger.
if you had bad genetics and you can't grow without double the amount of gear and double the time spent on, you'd do it without thinking twice if bodybuilding was your main goal and it really made you happy.
to you, that would be stupid...
to 99% of the population, what we're all doing is retarded, and a waste of time... hell, lifting weights is generally thought of as retarded, a waste of time, will drop your IQ, and will make you look ugly...
is there a right or wrong? not really... depends on what you really want in life.
My father thinks i'm a retard because i didn't spend most of my life studying, do nothing else, get a PhD in nuclearphytochemicalastronoelectomagnetic engineering and become a college professor...
I think he wasted his life for doing exactly that and having only 2 friends or something like that...
you have choices in life... the only one who can tell you if it's right or wrong is YOU AND ONLY YOU!!! UNLESS YOU ARE HURTING SOMEONE ELSE IN YOUR DECISION!!! and hurting as in physically and financially hurting someone else... i couldn't care less about someone else's emotions if i'm doing something they don't want me to do... for example, your wife or g/f or whatever tells you she wants you to quit or she can't stand it? if there's no reason for her to say that (real reason... like your spending 90% of the house's income on GH or shit like that, and not because "i think it's stupid to do what you're doing") there's no reason to even think about it...
Again, if god came down to you and said:
If you stop weight training, and just diet like ahuman being and do cardio, you'd live to be 100 years old
if you weight train and eat more, you'd live to be 80
if you use steroids on and off, you'd live to be 70
if you megadose all year long for 20 years, you'd live to be 55
which one will you choose?
that's the question you ask yourself, and no one can answer that except you. weigh the pro over the cons and do it.
as for growing... i don't care what anyone says... facts are facts... keeping training and diet constant... more gear = more gains... sorry, it's a fact. eat 3000 cals per day til you hit a plateau... double up your gear, slin, and GH then tell me you won't blow up, i dare you.
Dusty Hanshaw
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Other than the few people who seem to have completely missed the point this thread has turned out great. People are actually thinking about why they believe one way or another and that was the point. Like many have said it isn't hurting anyone so each should do what they want. I personally believe that you should only use what you need to progress.
Thanks for all of the replies and keep them coming. Again, you don't need to agree with me just make your point like so many here already have.
Dusty
Thanks for all of the replies and keep them coming. Again, you don't need to agree with me just make your point like so many here already have.
Dusty
drugs killed off most original thought in bodybuilding as far as gaining muscle. people are so one tracked that the drugs being the best option they dismiss or don't even look into any others and in my opinion it is bullshit. if drugs didn't exist does anyone actually think that bodybuilding still would not have progressed size wise? off course it would have, its just we use drugs to make those gains, if they didn't exist people would have figured something else out.
when humun beings have something in mind they find ways to get it done as long as they have the correct attitude
it is like the henry ford quote
"I am looking for a lot of men who have an infinite capacity to not know what can't be done."
most people believe that they only way or the best way to get bigger is through drugs and it is not actually true. but we live in a society were drugs are the answer for everything so why should it be different in bodybuilding. its just there are other options and they work and their are other options to be discovered that work as well. don't close you minds off. if you think of things from a different perspective you might find some different answers to the challenge you looking at , in this case gaining muscle.
when humun beings have something in mind they find ways to get it done as long as they have the correct attitude
it is like the henry ford quote
"I am looking for a lot of men who have an infinite capacity to not know what can't be done."
most people believe that they only way or the best way to get bigger is through drugs and it is not actually true. but we live in a society were drugs are the answer for everything so why should it be different in bodybuilding. its just there are other options and they work and their are other options to be discovered that work as well. don't close you minds off. if you think of things from a different perspective you might find some different answers to the challenge you looking at , in this case gaining muscle.
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the question that most interests me is if is healthier to stay on a low dose of around 150-200 and go up to 5-600 for cycles, rather than 2-3 months on with 2-3 months off? some think that yo yoing hormonally is worse healthwise.
i currently do the latter but have seriously considered the former. ive never considered the idea that it may actually be more beneficial in regards to building muscle to cycle off, like some suggest, because it just isnt my experience.
ill be honest, i jumped on gear within my first 6 months of serious training. i know thats a huge no no and im sure ill get ripped for it, but i did my research, trained hard, got diet in check, and put on about 20-25 lbs naturally at 26 yrs old.
so if DC had came to me right before my first inject and said "whoa hold on, ill give you 20 million if you could add 20 lbs in year and stay at the same bf%", im not sure i could have done it or not. im an ectomorph and just wasnt meant to be big, but i respond to aas fairly well. 5-600 a week and i get to 240 easily, maybe im wrong but im pretty sure that if i did some cycles that ive seen posted i could push 260 within a year.
the question is if i would have taken DC's challenge and pushed my natural potential first, would it really have mattered in the grand scheme of things? i would still juice eventually, so if i did it intelligently and moderately from the the get go.....its all the same.
im not trying to make any definitive statements....jmo.
i currently do the latter but have seriously considered the former. ive never considered the idea that it may actually be more beneficial in regards to building muscle to cycle off, like some suggest, because it just isnt my experience.
ill be honest, i jumped on gear within my first 6 months of serious training. i know thats a huge no no and im sure ill get ripped for it, but i did my research, trained hard, got diet in check, and put on about 20-25 lbs naturally at 26 yrs old.
so if DC had came to me right before my first inject and said "whoa hold on, ill give you 20 million if you could add 20 lbs in year and stay at the same bf%", im not sure i could have done it or not. im an ectomorph and just wasnt meant to be big, but i respond to aas fairly well. 5-600 a week and i get to 240 easily, maybe im wrong but im pretty sure that if i did some cycles that ive seen posted i could push 260 within a year.
the question is if i would have taken DC's challenge and pushed my natural potential first, would it really have mattered in the grand scheme of things? i would still juice eventually, so if i did it intelligently and moderately from the the get go.....its all the same.
im not trying to make any definitive statements....jmo.
Huckleburry Grylls
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LOL
Uh... can you name one GREAT athlete of the "world" that is on this web site?
I mean is Michael Jordan? Larry Bird? Ronnie Colman? Arnold? Barry Bonds? Mike Phelps? Lance Armstrong? Lebron James? Lawrence Taylor? Barry Sanders? Wayne Gretzky? Randy Couture? ect ect ect....on this board?
I totally understand your argument but listen man, the people on this board are hardly "worlds best athletes" or even close. Most are 20 year old know it alls and the rest are amature bodybuilders that build there ego on the internet more then they build there body in the gym. A "few" may be "athletes" in the since they are pro or pretty good at a sport but this board is FAR from being full with the "greatest athletes" of the world.
Grylls
PHIL HERNON
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BUT!
I know 1 heisman trophy winner, 1 olympic gold medalist , 1 collegiate 100 meter dash champion, 3 MLB players.....2 of them World Series winners, 4 ex, make it 5 with Iabadman ( Not sure if he still posts) NFL players.....1 of them a 6 time ALL PRO, 2 UFC top 10 fighters, 1 hall of fame NHL coach, 2 NBA guys ( 1 a hall of famer) on this site under AKAs.....you never know who is around
LOL
Uh... can you name one GREAT athlete of the "world" that is on this web site?
I mean is Michael Jordan? Larry Bird? Ronnie Colman? Arnold? Barry Bonds? Mike Phelps? Lance Armstrong? Lebron James? Lawrence Taylor? Barry Sanders? Wayne Gretzky? Randy Couture? ect ect ect....on this board?
I totally understand your argument but listen man, the people on this board are hardly "worlds best athletes" or even close. Most are 20 year old know it alls and the rest are amature bodybuilders that build there ego on the internet more then they build there body in the gym. A "few" may be "athletes" in the since they are pro or pretty good at a sport but this board is FAR from being full with the "greatest athletes" of the world.
Grylls
I know 1 heisman trophy winner, 1 olympic gold medalist , 1 collegiate 100 meter dash champion, 3 MLB players.....2 of them World Series winners, 4 ex, make it 5 with Iabadman ( Not sure if he still posts) NFL players.....1 of them a 6 time ALL PRO, 2 UFC top 10 fighters, 1 hall of fame NHL coach, 2 NBA guys ( 1 a hall of famer) on this site under AKAs.....you never know who is around
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I really like this thread and like Phil said you never know who is around nor will we and it needs to stay that way. this board is for information and food for thought. Take it for that and make up your own minds. Also I think many need to go back to the org question as I feel many people are thinking this was to argue vs thoughts. Remember as one member said you will decide what to do for yourself but with so many thoughst from other members it helps you make the right choice for you. One thing is for sure more is NOT always better, the bottom line is gear does not produce genectics it will only make yours get to the top quicker but if your not meant to have a 20 inch arm all the gear in the world will not give you a 20 inch arm other then SEO
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Disclaimer: this post is not meant to offend anyone, nor is it directed towards anyone in particular. this is just a response to almost all the posts. sorry in advance if you are offended.
Not trying to prove a point, or try to push my opinions on someone else, but i'm just bored and have somethings i want to say
the same main arguement in the begining of the thread could be reversed and would hold true...
If you are on minimal amounts of gear, take lots of off time, and look great... why do you risk your health for nothing, or just a placing in a mediocre? why don't you just blast out on the gear and look fucking amazing instead of great, win some high end contests, and get supp endorsments and some money out of fucking up your health, instead of a two dollar trophy and a picture in the umpteenth thread in MD?
this could be said out of many things in life too... my main examples i usually use have to do with education... it's like the people who say "i don't know why this idiot spends 8 hours a day studying? he gets a B at best, and he doesn't even go out with friends... 10 years from now he might have a mediocre job, but he won't even have friends and he'd be all alone... look at me, i don't even study and i get a C and have time to party and go out whenever i want."
if this person studied harder and went out much less, he'd get A+ all throughout and probably find a job that pays 6 figures a year the minute he graduates... but he opted to go for the C and probably find a retarded job after he graduates just to have fun and go out with friends...
is one right and one wrong? no... it depends on what you want in life...
you're at 250 lbs with using minimal gear and take breaks?? good for you, if you used more you'd get bigger.
if you had bad genetics and you can't grow without double the amount of gear and double the time spent on, you'd do it without thinking twice if bodybuilding was your main goal and it really made you happy.
to you, that would be stupid...
to 99% of the population, what we're all doing is retarded, and a waste of time... hell, lifting weights is generally thought of as retarded, a waste of time, will drop your IQ, and will make you look ugly...
is there a right or wrong? not really... depends on what you really want in life.
My father thinks i'm a retard because i didn't spend most of my life studying, do nothing else, get a PhD in nuclearphytochemicalastronoelectomagnetic engineering and become a college professor...
I think he wasted his life for doing exactly that and having only 2 friends or something like that...
you have choices in life... the only one who can tell you if it's right or wrong is YOU AND ONLY YOU!!! UNLESS YOU ARE HURTING SOMEONE ELSE IN YOUR DECISION!!! and hurting as in physically and financially hurting someone else... i couldn't care less about someone else's emotions if i'm doing something they don't want me to do... for example, your wife or g/f or whatever tells you she wants you to quit or she can't stand it? if there's no reason for her to say that (real reason... like your spending 90% of the house's income on GH or shit like that, and not because "i think it's stupid to do what you're doing") there's no reason to even think about it...
Again, if god came down to you and said:
If you stop weight training, and just diet like ahuman being and do cardio, you'd live to be 100 years old
if you weight train and eat more, you'd live to be 80
if you use steroids on and off, you'd live to be 70
if you megadose all year long for 20 years, you'd live to be 55
which one will you choose?
that's the question you ask yourself, and no one can answer that except you. weigh the pro over the cons and do it.
as for growing... i don't care what anyone says... facts are facts... keeping training and diet constant... more gear = more gains... sorry, it's a fact. eat 3000 cals per day til you hit a plateau... double up your gear, slin, and GH then tell me you won't blow up, i dare you.
well put Buselmo!
some of us haven't "missed the point" at all
once you use aas, especially after a couple of years, do you have any idea how long it takes for natural testosterone levels to truly recover?
what happens is...
couple months (or several weeks) on very high amounts.. then a huge CRASH for the entire time that you're off. say you go off cycle for 4 months. you might have BEGUN to reach HALF the level of a normal human male at the end of that 4th month. how much muscle can you really gain/keep when your test levels are in the dumps the entire time?
of course everybody is different and there are a lot of variables
but why yo-yo? i think a lot of evidence is starting to surface showing how dangerous that is
i believe we're finding that there is a perfect BALANCE if you do it right
once you use aas, especially after a couple of years, do you have any idea how long it takes for natural testosterone levels to truly recover?
what happens is...
couple months (or several weeks) on very high amounts.. then a huge CRASH for the entire time that you're off. say you go off cycle for 4 months. you might have BEGUN to reach HALF the level of a normal human male at the end of that 4th month. how much muscle can you really gain/keep when your test levels are in the dumps the entire time?
of course everybody is different and there are a lot of variables
but why yo-yo? i think a lot of evidence is starting to surface showing how dangerous that is
i believe we're finding that there is a perfect BALANCE if you do it right
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ABSOLUTELY!
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AGREED..
YoungNJacked
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if u take a good athlete naturally and add AAS or ergos of any sort its gunna help him get the next level. everyone takes ergogenic aids at the pro level. i dont see what the issue is..........
if u could take a pill to be a better lawyer, accountant, teacher, etc....and pay you 100x more and take care of your family for life, you wouldnt do it? you wouldnt risk ur health to advance your family out of lower class?
as to the normal joes, its all about you and what u want out of life. do u wanna be an alcoholic and die at 33 from drunk driving, or use steroids, marry an amazing looking wife, feel self confident, and die at say 60ish?
buselmo makes a good point and thats where i see things as well.
if u could take a pill to be a better lawyer, accountant, teacher, etc....and pay you 100x more and take care of your family for life, you wouldnt do it? you wouldnt risk ur health to advance your family out of lower class?
as to the normal joes, its all about you and what u want out of life. do u wanna be an alcoholic and die at 33 from drunk driving, or use steroids, marry an amazing looking wife, feel self confident, and die at say 60ish?
buselmo makes a good point and thats where i see things as well.
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This is very disrespectful, there are some people here busting their asses in the gym failing only because they don´t have good enough genetics, and what you call "building their ego on the internet" I see it as teaching, I can tell you I owe a lot to some of these guys who come here and teach us newbies how to train and eat and encourage us to keep healthy and keep educating us while we train
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Get the point of this thread, with those 5-600 a week+"more food"+"training sistem that makes you gain the most possible strenght" you could be at 260 without bumping the gear and at 300 when you bump it slightly if you are willing to put the effort in the table and in the gim and you give it time (Rome wasn´t built in a day). End result? ssdark as big as his genetics allow without abussing himself. Remember: Muscles are made of protein not of gear
Dusty Hanshaw
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Don't even bother with people like this betito. Some people just have a hard time with guys doing their best and being proud of the success that they achieve. This guy is just grouping most of this website with a comment and taking a shot at us yet he is here. If we are all such dumbass posers then why does he waste his time reading here? He can't learn from any of us and based on his posts doesn't want to contribute anything of value either.
Dusty Hanshaw
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I agree with most of this but I do know of a few top guys that do pct and take time off. That being said I do agree that most do not.
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