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Advice: Nolvadex and 19Nors

UsmcOldSchoolMuscle

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I've read a few times over the years that Tamoxifen should not be taken with 19Nors ie Nandrolone. I couldn't find any studies stating such and I pulled out William Llewellyn's Encyclopedia and he makes no mention of potential issues. Do you believe that the two should not be used in conjunction? Have you taken Tamoxifen with Nandrolone? I have never taken Nolva because early on I'd always heard that it would hinder gains and I guess that notion has stuck with me.


I am currently failing to mitigate gyno this cycle. The cycle is as follows:
Weekly
800 mg Test
600 mg Deca
400 mg Mast
Daily
50 mg proviron
12.5 Aromasin

Nandrolone has always given me issues with gyno but it subsides post cycles. I gain well with Deca and it really helps my joints, which is why I implement nandrolone despite the gyno.

I have upped the Aromasin to 25mg a day. I'm really at a loss being that I thought the Mast, Proviron and Aromasin would have surely prevented any issues.

I am wondering if Tamoxifen may serve me better.

I have rx letro but the stuff wrecked my joints last I'd taken it.

I am also considering switching from Aromasin to A-dex as I haven't taken Arimidex is years and perhaps it may work better than Aromasin this time around.

Please share your experience and opinions as I very much appreciate it.
 

UsmcOldSchoolMuscle

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Are you sure you’re not having prolactin issues?
I very well could be. Though I am not showing any milk lol.
I have always utilized Pramipexole in the past. This go I opted for Mast instead to block the issues.
I have rx and research Pramipexole on hand.

The issues I have with Prami are as follows: drowsiness in the day time. I have to keep energy drinks on hand especially while driving. I remember nodding off a couple of times waiting on a green light. Also I alters my psyche slightly. Nothing absurd but I am more impulsive. I researched this and seems that this psychological effect is not too rare.
 

Rex Feral

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I've read a few times over the years that Tamoxifen should not be taken with 19Nors ie Nandrolone. I couldn't find any studies stating such and I pulled out William Llewellyn's Encyclopedia and he makes no mention of potential issues. Do you believe that the two should not be used in conjunction? Have you taken Tamoxifen with Nandrolone? I have never taken Nolva because early on I'd always heard that it would hinder gains and I guess that notion has stuck with me.


I am currently failing to mitigate gyno this cycle. The cycle is as follows:
Weekly
800 mg Test
600 mg Deca
400 mg Mast
Daily
50 mg proviron
12.5 Aromasin

Nandrolone has always given me issues with gyno but it subsides post cycles. I gain well with Deca and it really helps my joints, which is why I implement nandrolone despite the gyno.

I have upped the Aromasin to 25mg a day. I'm really at a loss being that I thought the Mast, Proviron and Aromasin would have surely prevented any issues.

I am wondering if Tamoxifen may serve me better.

I have rx letro but the stuff wrecked my joints last I'd taken it.

I am also considering switching from Aromasin to A-dex as I haven't taken Arimidex is years and perhaps it may work better than Aromasin this time around.

Please share your experience and opinions as I very much appreciate it.
Personally, I have found that exemestane will not cover me at this amount of T @ 25mg. It's not uncommon. I remember Arthur Rea saying many will require 50mg which seemed implausible until experienced. I find 0.5mg Arimidex 3 x per week and 12.5 - 25 mg exemestane 3 x wk, start at 12.5, to be surperior to 25mg exemestane qd. I actually got this idea from Milos. As to your original question, I have used SERMs, almost exclusively tamoxifen, with 19 nors for like 75-80% of 33 years w/out incident. They keep my lipids in check when used w/ traditional AIs & are necessary in my opinion for vessel health and perhaps kidney health vs no SERM.

Rex.
 

machomadness22

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I know It is extremely rare to have prolactin induced gyno and usually high estrogen is to blame from what I have read over the years. I can’t or know why running Nolva wouldn’t be acceptable that’s a pretty old school AI and worked great for many guys. Actually I believe there was a pretty recent thread about guys running it all the way through. I would check out your levels and I would stay clear of letro as long as possible. Personally
 

UsmcOldSchoolMuscle

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Personally, I have found that exemestane will not cover me at this amount of T @ 25mg. It's not uncommon. I remember Arthur Rea saying many will require 50mg which seemed implausible until experienced. I find 0.5mg Arimidex 3 x per week and 12.5 - 25 mg exemestane 3 x wk, start at 12.5, to be surperior to 25mg exemestane qd. I actually got this idea from Milos. As to your original question, I have used SERMs, almost exclusively tamoxifen, with 19 nors for like 75-80% of 33 years w/out incident. They keep my lipids in check when used w/ traditional AIs & are necessary in my opinion for vessel health and perhaps kidney health vs no SERM.

Rex.
Thanks Rex, much appreciated.
 

Matsuo Munefusa

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The theory was that it could upregulate progesterone receptors by activating the estrogen receptor and therefore make 19nor sides more potent (since they are progestins).

In practice it doesn’t pan out. Take nolvadex if you need it.

I am using 250mg test for the past several months and my estrogen finally creeped up to upper 20s. It had been crashed from using primo in the Fall. I just introduced 10mg twice a week nolvadex to deal with estrogen side effects and after a week on that my chest is dry again and my nipples aren’t sensitive.

A little goes a long way!
 

blackjack

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I am on Nandrolone and Nolva right now, no issues and fantastic progress. The second I drop Nolva titties start growing and feeling the wrong way. I've tried virtually every approach to controlling gyno during so many various cycles over many years. If I could ever give anyone advice - AI's are way overrated and impede far more progress than than estrogen ever did. And if you struggle with estrogenic side effects run Nolva with every cycle no matter what 10-20mg a day. I haven't had gyno issues in years operating this way, whereas when I bought into all the Nolva bs theories and ran letro/aromasin/adex those 3 or 4 years it was always a roller coaster of gyno sides one day to them going away and being way too dry and achy the next - balance was very tough to find. I believe the body just does a great job of balancing for you if you just control the nips.
 

UsmcOldSchoolMuscle

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The theory was that it could upregulate progesterone receptors by activating the estrogen receptor and therefore make 19nor sides more potent (since they are progestins).

In practice it doesn’t pan out. Take nolvadex if you need it.

I am using 250mg test for the past several months and my estrogen finally creeped up to upper 20s. It had been crashed from using primo in the Fall. I just introduced 10mg twice a week nolvadex to deal with estrogen side effects and after a week on that my chest is dry again and my nipples aren’t sensitive.

A little goes a long way!
Thanks Matsuo. I really appreciate is always.
 

gomcapt

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I've used nolvadex many times while running 19-nors. I just used it long enough to correct any flare-ups with my chest and once the issue was no longer present I discontinued use and just kept an eye on things. I had been on the fence in the past about nolvadex use but I decided that it was better to give it a shot than to worry about gyro for however long I was going to be using the product that gave it to me. Also, like Matsuo said above, a little does go a long way. I do not recall ever using nova very long. Certainly less than 4 weeks.
 

specter

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The theory was that it could upregulate progesterone receptors by activating the estrogen receptor and therefore make 19nor sides more potent (since they are progestins).

In practice it doesn’t pan out. Take nolvadex if you need it.

I am using 250mg test for the past several months and my estrogen finally creeped up to upper 20s. It had been crashed from using primo in the Fall. I just introduced 10mg twice a week nolvadex to deal with estrogen side effects and after a week on that my chest is dry again and my nipples aren’t sensitive.

A little goes a long way!
This ! i have used 19nors and nolva several times to hold down gyno and worked fine even on Ment!
 

Knight9

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Personally, I have found that exemestane will not cover me at this amount of T @ 25mg. It's not uncommon. I remember Arthur Rea saying many will require 50mg which seemed implausible until experienced. I find 0.5mg Arimidex 3 x per week and 12.5 - 25 mg exemestane 3 x wk, start at 12.5, to be surperior to 25mg exemestane qd. I actually got this idea from Milos. As to your original question, I have used SERMs, almost exclusively tamoxifen, with 19 nors for like 75-80% of 33 years w/out incident. They keep my lipids in check when used w/ traditional AIs & are necessary in my opinion for vessel health and perhaps kidney health vs no SERM.

Rex.

Rex,
Where did the negative connotations with Nolvadex and clotting come from? That was my main concern and the reason for me halting it a few years ago when I thought I would probably use it as a sidecar at 20mg for trt and 40mg for cycles.

I am not saying this is cause and effect but John Meadows always used Nolvadex and ended up having a clot. For me, that re-focused and emboldened that theory even moreso. Hope you are well, my friend.

Edit:I really have developed (or been more in-tune) with estrogenic issues as I have gotten older. Even 200mg/wk of Test puts me in the 70-80 range and 200 e5d puts me right around 100 for estradiol sensitive tests.
 

Elvia1023

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I've read a few times over the years that Tamoxifen should not be taken with 19Nors ie Nandrolone. I couldn't find any studies stating such and I pulled out William Llewellyn's Encyclopedia and he makes no mention of potential issues. Do you believe that the two should not be used in conjunction? Have you taken Tamoxifen with Nandrolone? I have never taken Nolva because early on I'd always heard that it would hinder gains and I guess that notion has stuck with me.


I am currently failing to mitigate gyno this cycle. The cycle is as follows:
Weekly
800 mg Test
600 mg Deca
400 mg Mast
Daily
50 mg proviron
12.5 Aromasin

Nandrolone has always given me issues with gyno but it subsides post cycles. I gain well with Deca and it really helps my joints, which is why I implement nandrolone despite the gyno.

I have upped the Aromasin to 25mg a day. I'm really at a loss being that I thought the Mast, Proviron and Aromasin would have surely prevented any issues.

I am wondering if Tamoxifen may serve me better.

I have rx letro but the stuff wrecked my joints last I'd taken it.

I am also considering switching from Aromasin to A-dex as I haven't taken Arimidex is years and perhaps it may work better than Aromasin this time around.

Please share your experience and opinions as I very much appreciate it.

If I were advising you on that cycle with your current issues I would first get blood work done (including prolactin). I would also add in 20mg nolvadex/tamoxifen daily on that much test with gyno being a concern. I personally would much rather add in nolva (with low dose ai) to control gyno/estrogen compared to using a high dose of AI. I prefer to use as little AI as needed. For someone relatively sensitive they should be fine with 12.5mg per day combined with 20mg nolva per day. Obviously only blookwork would show where they are and some people may need to use a higher dose of AI as well. I personally don't mind estrogen creeping up a little so I actually just use nolva on most cycles and I am fine doing just that.
 

UsmcOldSchoolMuscle

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If I were advising you on that cycle with your current issues I would first get blood work done (including prolactin). I would also add in 20mg nolvadex/tamoxifen daily on that much test with gyno being a concern. I personally would much rather add in nolva (with low dose ai) to control gyno/estrogen compared to using a high dose of AI. I prefer to use as little AI as needed. For someone relatively sensitive they should be fine with 12.5mg per day combined with 20mg nolva per day. Obviously only blookwork would show where they are and some people may need to use a higher dose of AI as well. I personally don't mind estrogen creeping up a little so I actually just use nolva on most cycles and I am fine doing just that.
Thank you for offering your thoughts Elvia. I was and am of the train of thought that I would rather add in Tamoxifen opposed to running high amounts of AI.
 

Koonta Jones

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Great forum. Say your 50 and been hitting weights for 30years. Blood work great. Started first cycle of test cypionate at 200 every 3 days. Start getting itchy and blood test shows test at 1800 and estrodiol is at 70pg/ml. You get itchy l..sore nipples. 20mg nolvadex should do the trick? Or should add a ai. 12.5 arimdex 2 LX a week. Thanks again for all the cool ass info...SWOOOOL!
 

specter

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Messages
567
Great forum. Say your 50 and been hitting weights for 30years. Blood work great. Started first cycle of test cypionate at 200 every 3 days. Start getting itchy and blood test shows test at 1800 and estrodiol is at 70pg/ml. You get itchy l..sore nipples. 20mg nolvadex should do the trick? Or should add a ai. 12.5 arimdex 2 LX a week. Thanks again for all the cool ass info...SWOOOOL!
I would personally just add 20mg nolvadex and be done with it.
 

Ares

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Oct 26, 2006
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I´ve personally given up all AIs during the last years but I hardly go over 1,5 grams total any more. I´ve also felt so much better after getting rid of AIs even though I´m sure it doesn´t affect everybody the same way. A solid cycle from last year for me is something like:
- Test cyp 800 mg per week
- Deca 400 mg per week
- Tamoxifen 10 mg ed
- Proviron 25 mg ed
- Caber 0,25 mg twice a week (Mon, Thu)

Very basic but feel great all the time mentally and physically, good gains, good sleep, high libido and sex drive. Never had issues with Tamox and Nor 19s. Edit: I also use 150 iu hcg ed.
 

Fa Seeshus

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Raloxifene is a superior on cycle SERM.
 

Fa Seeshus

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What are the differences vs Nolvadex ?


With all the recent issues of blood clots, ralox is the safer choice

Ralox also helps some with prolactin, whole Nolva does not


Head to head ralox seems to reduce gyno more


Ralox helps tendon elasticity


Raloxifene is the newer, more advanced drug. Many people who are still recommending nolvadex are just doing so because they are more familiar with Nolva.

That being said, Nolva and toremifine seem to be superior to raloxifene in a PCT context where you are trying to restart natural test.
 

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