astragalus and possible kidney delusion

[Chipper Jones78]

Again, "estimated" GFR isn't a rating, it is just basically a pass or fail test.

You could be at 116 GFR with only 10% of your kidneys still functioning but your load is only 5% so you would never know.

Right....agreed.

 

[Killer.7]

Again, "estimated" GFR isn't a rating, it is just basically a pass or fail test.

You could be at 116 GFR with only 10% of your kidneys still functioning but your load is only 5% so you would never know.

I think I am going to have to disagree with this. Every kidney foundation and lab out there uses EGFR as a rating. They say if your GFR is X then you are in CKD stage 1,2,3,4,5. ect They tell you to interpret the EGFR results in concert with other things like protein in urine and cholesterol.

So yeah I think EGFR IS a rating.

 

[Kaladryn]

I think I am going to have to disagree with this. Every kidney foundation and lab out there uses EGFR as a rating. They say if your GFR is X then you are in CKD stage 1,2,3,4,5. ect They tell you to interpret the EGFR results in concert with other things like protein in urine and cholesterol.

So yeah I think EGFR IS a rating.

I think if you fully understood how it is estimated you would agree with me. You are correct, if you have KIDNEY DISEASE then it may be a good "rating" however, it is not an indicator of total kidney function in otherwise healthy kidneys.

What you want is a "24-hour creatinine clearance" and even this will have similar limitations in that if that total load isn't high enough any lack of function won't be as noticable.

 

[Killer.7]

Back to the protein in the urine thing. As it has been my main focus every since last fall. I just did another 24 hour urine test and it came back at 74mgs of protein/day and 18mgs per liter. So for every liter of piss I spilled 18mgs of protein.

Before that my 24 hour urine came back around the same but a little less at 15mgs per liter. And before that it came back at zero. In the fall before I started astragalus it came back at almost 1.5 GRAMS per liter.


So take that for what its worth. I am using NOW astragalus 2 grams AM and 2 grams PM. going to maybe up the dose to 4 and 4.


side note- the only time i pissed 0 grams of protein in the 24 hour test I was running an ace inhibitor. I came off it under the nephros instruction to see what would happen.

 

[upeccmi]

Again, "estimated" GFR isn't a rating, it is just basically a pass or fail test.

You could be at 116 GFR with only 10% of your kidneys still functioning but your load is only 5% so you would never know.

I have never heard any of my Nephrologists make this kind of statements I know eGFR is an estimate but it shows there is something wrong, alone with creatinine, bun, etc they make decisions on your kidney health. I have never heard someone going from an eGFR of 100 to failure either, unless there is trauma or disease of some kind. My mother was on dialysis from diabetes for years, but even that took several years to materialize into kidney failure.

 

[Flex500]

I have never heard any of my Nephrologists make this kind of statements I know eGFR is an estimate but it shows there is something wrong, alone with creatinine, bun, etc they make decisions on your kidney health. I have never heard someone going from an eGFR of 100 to failure either, unless there is trauma or disease of some kind. My mother was on dialysis from diabetes for years, but even that took several years to materialize into kidney failure.

I think what Kaladryn may be saying is that you need to take the whole picture into consideration and that eGFR without the presence of kidney disease can often add little. The key word is for those without CKD or kidney injury. For instance my eGFR sucks balls (using creatinine only). My 24 hour urine, cystatin c, microalbumin/creatinine, etc. is perfect. BP perfect, A1c perfect, no family history. My actual kidney function and health is likely significantly better than those with much higher eGFR's (based on creatinine).

For me and my nephrologist his thought is more forget eGFR for a patient with normal kidney function, let's run multiple tests, analyze risk factors, review family history and risk factors (ie bp) and ask ourselves if your kidneys are healthy and running optimally and are you at risk.

Now in CKD patients it is totally different.

Here is an example...there is a patient I've gotten to know with lower creatinine than me and a better eGFR with horrible kidney function.

I mean look at our population I can make my eGFR (creatinine based one) go from 60 to 120 in a month. My actual GFR is not changing yet my eGFR can bounce 60 points. If I had CKD it wouldn't work like that. Heck use Cystatin C (which some say is better) and my GFR is like 130 to 160.

So for me, a healthy individual, in a months time I have an eGFR of 60, 64, 127, 143, and 168 with no actual change in GFR. Meaning, I'm not bouncing from CKD stage 1 to "OMG BEST KIDNEYS EVER!". There is no actual GFR change but radical doubling and halving of eGFR.

I'm also not saying eGFR is a throw away number I'm just not sure how much use or real data it gives people who do not have CKD.

 

[Flex500]

Back to the protein in the urine thing. As it has been my main focus every since last fall. I just did another 24 hour urine test and it came back at 74mgs of protein/day and 18mgs per liter. So for every liter of piss I spilled 18mgs of protein.

Before that my 24 hour urine came back around the same but a little less at 15mgs per liter. And before that it came back at zero. In the fall before I started astragalus it came back at almost 1.5 GRAMS per liter.


So take that for what its worth. I am using NOW astragalus 2 grams AM and 2 grams PM. going to maybe up the dose to 4 and 4.


side note- the only time i pissed 0 grams of protein in the 24 hour test I was running an ace inhibitor. I came off it under the nephros instruction to see what would happen.

wow yeah that is a lot less now! All your other tests and such came back good I thought and such right? I remember reading some of your other threads and such.

 

[Kaladryn]

Back to the protein in the urine thing. As it has been my main focus every since last fall. I just did another 24 hour urine test and it came back at 74mgs of protein/day and 18mgs per liter. So for every liter of piss I spilled 18mgs of protein.

Before that my 24 hour urine came back around the same but a little less at 15mgs per liter. And before that it came back at zero. In the fall before I started astragalus it came back at almost 1.5 GRAMS per liter.


So take that for what its worth. I am using NOW astragalus 2 grams AM and 2 grams PM. going to maybe up the dose to 4 and 4.


side note- the only time i pissed 0 grams of protein in the 24 hour test I was running an ace inhibitor. I came off it under the nephros instruction to see what would happen.

What does your BP run?

BTW, my comments about GFR doesn't mean I don't like or use astragalas. I do.

 

[DOGGCRAPP]

Fluffy XL.....just saw this post this morning on FB for your own curiousity (attached part one and two)

 

[Chipper Jones78]

Again, "estimated" GFR isn't a rating, it is just basically a pass or fail test.

You could be at 116 GFR with only 10% of your kidneys still functioning but your load is only 5% so you would never know.

Wanted to know something Kaladryn, if this tells you something about my kidney function....just looking for your input.

This is whilst on Test C 750mg / Tren E 400mg / 40mg d-bol...4 weeks post

As discussed:

eGFR 114
HbA1C % 5.0
Glucose fasting 4.5 mmol/L
Bilirubin 10 umol/L
Creatinine 67 umol/L

 

[Kaladryn]

Wanted to know something Kaladryn, if this tells you something about my kidney function....just looking for your input.

This is whilst on Test C 750mg / Tren E 400mg / 40mg d-bol...4 weeks post

As discussed:

eGFR 114
HbA1C % 5.0
Glucose fasting 4.5 mmol/L
Bilirubin 10 umol/L
Creatinine 67 umol/L

I'm no kidney expert, I have just been educated on how GFR works. I would say your kidneys are working well below their maximum load, whatever that may be. Your GFR is high because your creatinine is unusually low. If your body makes a lot of creatinine, then your kidneys are probably working at a high capacity but if you don't make very much creatinine, then this isn't really a good indicator of anything.

Your results are definitely good, but they don't mean your kidneys are perfect, it just means they are dealing with their current load very well. Most of the time, our kidneys are under very light load.

 

[Chipper Jones78]

I'm no kidney expert, I have just been educated on how GFR works. I would say your kidneys are working well below their maximum load, whatever that may be. Your GFR is high because your creatinine is unusually low. If your body makes a lot of creatinine, then your kidneys are probably working at a high capacity but if you don't make very much creatinine, then this isn't really a good indicator of anything.

Your results are definitely good, but they don't mean your kidneys are perfect, it just means they are dealing with their current load very well. Most of the time, our kidneys are under very light load.

Thanks for your input, appreacite it.

I too thought my Creatinine levels were odd considering the orals I was consuming.

thx again.

 

[Flex500]

I'm no kidney expert, I have just been educated on how GFR works. I would say your kidneys are working well below their maximum load, whatever that may be. Your GFR is high because your creatinine is unusually low. If your body makes a lot of creatinine, then your kidneys are probably working at a high capacity but if you don't make very much creatinine, then this isn't really a good indicator of anything.

Your results are definitely good, but they don't mean your kidneys are perfect, it just means they are dealing with their current load very well. Most of the time, our kidneys are under very light load.

Isn't this a perfect illustration of why it can be so hard (and stressful) to make heads or tails out of kidney issues and you really can't rely on one number. We usually solely rely on creatinine, that drives up eGFR and boom "sorry dude you're stage 2 CKD". On the other hand someones creatinine may be low due to hyperfiltration...before it shoots up. Or maybe the person just has lower creatinine and all is perfect. My creatinine was 1.35 when I was 18 and 165 pounds.

https://academic.oup.com/ndt/article/27/5/1708/1843853

As this article noted and my nephrologist indicated to me hyperfiltration is often accompanied by or quickly comes before proteinuria/albuminuria. There are more and more studies about the diagnostic accuracy about spot creatinine/albumin ratio tests to pick up the small particles of protein and you often see that, hell, years before kidney issues advance. The test is about double a standard urinalysis but still usually under $60 and add another data point.


And as an fyi thank you for your posts. I am doing much better with my anxiety.

 

[Fluffy_XL]

Fluffy XL.....just saw this post this morning on FB for your own curiousity (attached part one and two)

Thank you. Is there any sign of Astralagus lowering proteinuria or urea?

 

[tokon]

Theres three things you can use to help regenerate your kidneys to some degree....Astragalus, Pycnogenol, and Grapeseed powder.

How much of each of these three supplements per day?

 

[Kaladryn]

It is important to note that the protein myoglobin, which is released into the blood from muscle damage, will show up on a "dip-stick" test as "protein." However if the urine is actually fully analyzed (I assume by a urinizer9000 or something) then myoglobin won't show up as protein.

 

[Flex500]

It is important to note that the protein myoglobin, which is released into the blood from muscle damage, will show up on a "dip-stick" test as "protein." However if the urine is actually fully analyzed (I assume by a urinizer9000 or something) then myoglobin won't show up as protein.

Would that be the case if you took off 3-4 days from training though? I don't think it would be present, correct?

 

[Flex500]

How much of each of these three supplements per day?

astragalus- anywhere from 2-4 grams morning AND night. It's dose dependent and doesn't absorb well...is also cheap. You can't really overdue it

Pyc- Most studies I see have used ~150mgs. I see a lot of 100mg pills so i started 100mgs AM and PM, 200 total. This is not a cheap supplement.

Not sure on the other I don't take that. I do take beetroot powder though.

 

[tornquad]

Am curious if the consumption of meat for the protein source is the problem as I've seen tons of blood work from people that do keto , carnivore , low carb high meat diet and most have elevated creatinine levels with the exception to bodybuilders that eat vegan or a more plant base diet .

 

[Kaladryn]

Would that be the case if you took off 3-4 days from training though? I don't think it would be present, correct?

Yes, small amounts of myoglobin, which probably come from normal hard training, should be gone within a day and definitely within two days.

FYI, heavy hydration during and after training, preferably with soft water (slightly basic, you can add bicarbonate) is the best way to help clear myoglobin from the kidneys. Myoglobin damages kidneys by crystallizing in the renal tubules and this is more likely in an acidic environment (which could easily be created by large amounts of protein breakdown (pre/intra/post-workout supplementation).

I have no evidence bodybuilder's kidneys are being damaged by small amounts of myoglobin but considering the prevalence of rhabdo and kidney issues in bodybuilders, I think it is worth consideration. Small amounts of damage could easily be happening over time without symptoms. And the way to mitigate the risk is worth doing for other reasons as well (hydration and not being too acidic).