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[B]Steroids are causing bone death??!![/B]

big_byrd52

World Record Holder/Featured Member/KiloKlub
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hey guys, i messed my knee up about a month ago after a missed squat attempt. i had an mri done to see what kind of shape it was in. they thought torn meniscus and MCL. the mri showed only torn meniscus, but in the report, it said that it picked up on "significant" bone damage, which the ortho described as "sinkholes" in the bone. he said basically the bones are dying! but the kicker is that in the report it said from probable steroid use, but i never told them i was taking stuff. Has anyone ever heard of this? please give me some info on this if u can, this has got me worried. thanks.
 
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Maybe he's making a guess due to your appearance due to the fact that they don't know what's causing it.
 
True, in a round about way

The 30 million Americans with arthritis, asthma, bowel and other problems who take steroid drugs at high doses or for six months or longer are at risk of osteoporosis and bone fractures, doctors at a national meeting reported Wednesday.


The findings, from two studies presented at the American College of Rheumatology's annual meeting in Washington, D.C., underscore for steroid drug users the importance of getting adequate vitamin D and calcium. They also indicate the need to periodically undergo tests to detect bone loss, experts said.


"Virtually anyone who uses these drugs long-term is at risk" of osteoporosis, said Dr. Philip Sambrook, an international expert on steroid-induced osteoporosis.


Patients also should talk with their doctors about bone measurements when they begin long-term use of steroids, he said. "They shouldn't wait six months," said Sambrook, professor of rheumatology at the University of Sydney in Australia.


Osteoporosis, a progressive bone disease, affects some 25 million Americans, 80 percent of them women. It causes hip, spinal and wrist fractures, shortened stature and stooped posture.


But research has shown that osteoporosis also occurs among people who take steroid drugs for rheumatoid arthritis, asthma, inflammatory bowel disease, chronic lung problems and connective tissue disorders.


Steroids often quell the underlying inflammatory conditions that cause these problems. But when used at high doses, or for many months, the medicines impair calcium absorption and interfere with bone formation, said Dr. Henry Bone, director of the Michigan Bone and Mineral Clinic at St. John Medical Center in Detroit.


Last year, the American College of Rheumatology issued guidelines to prevent drug-issued osteoporosis. Among them:



Daily calcium intake of 1,500 milligrams. (An 8-ounce glass of 1-percent milk has 300 milligrams.)


800 international units a day of vitamin D, or 50,000 international units three times a week.


Bone density measurements at the onset of steroid therapy and six to 12 months later.

Dr. D. Sudhaker Rao, division head of bone and mineral metabolism at Henry Ford Health System in Detroit, said Michiganders and others in northern states especially need to watch vitamin intake because they don't get enough sunlight -- a good source of vitamin D.


"It's a myth among the public that if you do the usual things, you can avoid the drugs" for osteoporosis, he said. He and many others favor using drugs such as Fosamax, generically known as alendronate, or Didronel, generically known as etidronate, to prevent steroid-induced osteoporosis. Neither drug is federally approved for that use.


Children on steroid drugs, even if they take them occasionally, need up to 2,000 milligrams of calcium and 800 to 1,000 international units of vitamin D a day, Rao said.


The research presented Wednesday involved two Canadian studies. One showed that Fosamax plus calcium and vitamin D reduced spinal fractures in people taking steroids for a year or more, compared to a group getting only vitamin D and calcium. The other showed Didronel and calcium reduced the risk of vertebral fracture and height loss compared to steroid users getting only calcium.
 
This prompted me to check labels on my supplements!

I'm taking 1,800mg Calcium (through supplement - food would be an additional amount) and 1000iu of vit D. Isn't calcium also helpful in adding muscle?
 
This is why

When people say to avoid dairy, I scratrch my head. Milk is so important to us as BBers because it is such a great source of calcium and vitamin D. Go ahead, avoid milk, then let me see you post about bone problems in 20 years. I will say, drink milk.
 
I'm certainly not contradicting Phil :p ;)

Where is it cow's get their calcium? - from grass!

Eating green vegetables is an excellent source of calcium - so guys (and gals), eat your veggies!
 
Doesn't a few servings of broccoli contain as much calcium as a gallon of milk? Pretty sure I had a prof harping about this.
 
Corticosteroids

I think these conditions affecting bone are specific to corticosteroids and not anabolic steroids. Still you should make sure your calcium and vitamin D are up there. The fact that we do weight training our bones as well as muscles benefit from the workload.
 
As Tom said your doctor is referring to glucorticoids or corticosteroids, NOT anabolic steroids. However Albuterol and Clenbuterol would fall into the catagory of corticosteroids which many bodybuilders use.

In another study Testosterone was about 3x more effective than Nandrolone at increasing bone density but I don't have that one on this PC.

Nandrolone Decanoate (Deca Durabolin) and Bone Density

A number of studies show that anabolic steroids can increase bone density.
The studies below showed that nandrolone decanoate does.

Nandrolone decanoate for men with osteoporosis.Hamdy RC, Moore SW, Whalen KE, Landy C.Am J Ther. 1998 Mar;5(2):89-95.

To compare the efficacy and safety of nandrolone decanoate
and calcium (NDC) with those of calcium alone (CAL) in men with
idiopathic osteoporosis, a 12-month, randomized, prospective, controlled
study, was performed in an outpatient clinic. Twenty-one men with idiopathic osteoporosis (as determined by radiological and dual energy x-ray
absorptiometry findings) were randomly allocated to either 50 mg nandrolone
decanoate intramuscularly (im) weekly and 1,000 mg oral calcium carbonate
daily (NDC group) or to 1,000 mg oral calcium carbonate daily (CAL group).
Bone densitometry (total body, left femur, and lumbar spine), serum, and
urine biochemical parameters were measured at 3-month intervals. In the NDC group, bone mineral density initially increased, reached a plateau, and then decreased to near baseline levels at 12 months. Increases in lean muscle mass mirrored these changes. Free and total testosterone significantly decreased. Hemoglobin increased in all patients in this group. Patients in the CAL group exhibited no significant change in either total body or bone mineral density or biochemical parameters. Thus, nandrolone decanoate, 50 mg im weekly, transiently increases the bone mass of men with idiopathic osteoporosis in this preliminary study. Careful monitoring is necessary.

ST
 
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Yes its funny that through the whole reading about 'steroids' it never differentiated that anabolic steroids were NOT the drugs they refered to.
I also knew as I was reading it it was corticolsteroids that they were talking about. But, why not misinform and villify anabolics while they are at it. Whoever wrote that article that Phil copied is an ass.
 
YEAH, CORTICOL ROIDS WILL CAUSE BOWEL PROBLEMS AND BONE LOSS.. i have not seen a study on bone loss and anabolics.. all i know is that anti imflams are far worse than anabolics..
 
thats what i was thinking, and asked the ortho that very question. he said hes not sure and i havent talked with him again to see what he found out.
 
EITHER WAY....VERY INTERESTING THREAD.

I SHOULD HAVE A HUGE NASTY SKELETON CAUSE I DRINK MILK, EAT BROCCOLI AND TAKE TEST.


BIG BYRD: LET US KNOW WHAT THEY ARE GONNA DO ABOUT YOUR CONDITION. THAT SUCKS. :(
 
Severed Ties said:
As Tom said your doctor is referring to glucorticoids or corticosteroids, NOT anabolic steroids. However Albuterol and Clenbuterol would fall into the catagory of corticosteroids which many bodybuilders use.

Wrong...do a search on "AVN bone death" or "avascular necrosis". It means death of bone. There have been many recent studies showing that either anabolic or cortico steroids cause this disease. Yes cortico steroids do cause this, but so do anabolics. They don't know exactly why it may affect only some people.

Despite the two compounds being totally different makups only sharing the name "steroid" they do share a common side efects. That being they both increase your LDL. The theory right now is the high lipid levels increase the possibility of cutting off the flow in small arteries supplying the ends of the large bones (such as the hip or femur) this causes the bones to die. I know people with is condition and there is no cure. Once the bone is dead, thats it.

I have many articles on this around as I've been reading obout this for quite a while. Ostoperosis is very similar to AVN except its brought on "naturally" via bone loss and the things you've read about lack of calcium vs the AVN being induced through drugs via loss of blood suply to the bones. AVN can also be brought on from scuba diving because of the nitrogen levels reaping havoc with the lipid counts too.

I'll try to post some info later regarding this. I also know some orthos that deal specifically with this issue. Most still don't recognize it. Especially the younger recently schooled ones.
 
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have more accurate ones with better info around somewhere here.

BTW: AVN or avascular necrosis = osteonecrosis (just another name for same thing)

The NIH study did find use of weight training, bodybuilding, and having taken testosterone as risk factors for the development of the disease. But that does not mean people with HIV should kiss their gym memberships good-bye.

"All that we can say is that there is an association between those things," says Kovacs. "Whether it is a direct cause and effect, we can't determine because the numbers in our study are just too small. Maybe it's that people who tend to weight-lift might be those using testosterone, for example, but we just can't answer that based on this study."

Joe believes weight lifting is not a cause of osteonecrosis but may be a contributing factor to the progression of the disease. "Once the AVN has occurred for whatever reason and bone-cell death has taken place, then activities that cause increased forces through the hip joint may be confounding factors."

The hip area tends to be the first place on the body that osteonecrosis develops, although it can also occur in a shoulder, knee, or hand. "Because of the way we're wired," Joe explains, "the hip is an area where vascular compromise can more easily occur because of how blood vessels feed the femoral head." In most parts of the body, there is more than one way blood gets to the bone, Joe notes. But in the anterior portion of the femoral head—the inner side of the top of the hip bone— the blood supply comes in from only one area.

In January 2000 researchers reported that people with HIV were developing osteoporosis as a side effect of treatments for HIV. But while they are both bone problems, osteoporosis and osteonecrosis should not be confused. Bone continually breaks down and rebuilds; osteoporosis, a condition where bones become weak, brittle, and break easily, occurs when the cells do not rebuild as fast as they break down. In contrast, osteonecrosis is a condition where this rebuilding process comes to a halt because blood cannot get to the bone.

"We need that nutrient blood flow to help with the constant bone turnover we have," explains Joe. "Without the blood flow, the cells die, and the complete bone remodeling process doesn't take place, and all that you have is debris and dead bone cells."

Once bone death occurs, the bone is predisposed to further injury. "We've been advising patients who have AVN that they might want to avoid activities that will increase compressive forces through the hip joint like some weight lifting, squats, or carrying heavy weight on their shoulders as well as running on concrete," Joe says, "because that may put them more at risk for advancing the disease, even though there is nothing proved in the literature to show that will help slow the progression."

In fact, according to Kovacs, there are no treatments that indicate that once osteonecrosis is seen on an MRI scan, there is anything that can be done to halt the disease—whether a person is HIV-positive or not. Core-decompression surgery, which removes the inner layer of bone and thereby helps to increase blood flow and allow more blood vessels to form, may reduce pain and slow the progression of osteonecrosis—if the disease is found early on—but it cannot stop it. And once the disease has progressed, hip-replacement surgery is the only method of alleviating the pain.
 
FUSINATE....THIS IS FRIGHTENING NEWS TO ME.

THERE IS ARTHRITIS IN MY FAMILY....I HAVE BEEN ON HRT FOR A FEW YEARS. 1CC OF TEST PER WEEK.
 
The current numbers are this will affect every 1 out of 100 people with whacky LDL numbers....I'll try to find more info later
 
Do you have a source were I could read and copy the info?

I, for one, am extremely interested.
 

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