Bloodwork Results

[DOGGCRAPP]

Dante, I highly respect the message that you are conveying

By no means am I discrediting the fluctuations of hydration status and hemoglobin levels. I've highly recommend observing this inconjunction with other etiologies that may have relationship with relative polycythemia or hypoxic induced erythropoiesis, ect.

What I'd like to point out though, without disparaging Dr. Crisler's comments on the association of dehydration and BUN/Cr ratio falsely increasing one's HH. He's correct as this is the most common cause. Although, he's speaking in general terms. Or as if he's giving a lecture to a bunch of sedentary choir boys. What he is leaving out to the readers, as I'm sure he's very aware, is the fact that high protein intake will raise BUN and Creatinine levels. As will muscle tissue breakdown from a prior workout relatively close to one's labs. Then the fact certain medications can falsely increase Creatinine levels, such as Ace Inhibitors (I believe upwards of 25%), NSAIDS and different types of Antibiotics. Which all will skew a BUN/Cr ratio. All which I'm sure many readers are taking. Therefore, a basis for comparison of a sedentary lifestyle individual to that of a weight training, high protein ingesting individual does not fit into the same criteria when evaluating BUN/Cr ratio-- hydration status.


With that said, this is why it's important to observe other makers as aforementioned.

On top of what you mentioned up above...I totally get what you are saying about his urinalysis where there is no mass dilution to his levels, and then i see the BUN/CR ratio which goes the other way. But I will say (and you might also say this to) I have no idea at all what happens to a human body chemistry wise when you add DNP to the mix.....I would expect DNP to severely dehydrate someone to the point of danger in some cases....everyone Ive seen speak about it talked about the terrible night sweats, the incredible day sweating....and yet you have his urinalysis which defies that logic. Maybe its hell in a handbasket when you add DNP to the mix bloodwork and urinalysis wise..I truly have no idea....I do believe the DNP (and the high tren and prohormones) are greatly showing up in his liver toxicity.

 

[nothuman]

Hate to admit it, but my HDL has been even lower than Little Slice's... for years now.

And considering the ultrasound I had 3 years ago already showed an enlarged heart, but also that each morning when I get up it feels like I'm gonna die for my heart is beating so fast, I'm really starting to wonder if I'm not scheduled to soon be one of the next names on that frightful growing list of deaths from heart attacks...

So, DC, and though I know the info has already been posted a million times, could you please take advantage of L. Slice's new thread to list, AGAIN, all the measures/supps that can be taken to prevent/help deal with potential cardiac disaster... such info can never be given enough. Thank you.

This is hard to read. Maybe you can start a thread going more into detail and you'll hopefully get a similar discussion of everyone trying to help you.

 

[little slice]

This is hard to read. Maybe you can start a thread going more into detail and you'll hopefully get a similar discussion of everyone trying to help you.

Phidias can use my thread idgaf

 

[Deleted member 106824]

I wonder if Crohn's would have any interplay with this? Otherwise, I'm not sure?

I was actually referring to your thoughts on Dante's bolded comment, and was just providing my own account as a reference but yes I'm sure it could have an effect especially during a flare.

For the longest time my Hb/Hct were always slightly below normal but on gear they got up to 14-15 and 42-45...never higher than that though and never seemed overly related to hydration (though I tend to always drink a lot). Got lucky in that department it seems, less so with other areas.

Phidias can use my thread idgaf

I'd be interested to hear people's thoughts on his situation as well, it's definitely a scary one.

Nothuman, it seems like you've done well to sort out your situation with everyone's help here I still get some chest pain here and there but I'm literally doing almost everything I can think of health-wise so at some point it seems like there's a time to just accept things (while still being smart of course). Hopefully Phidias can improve things significantly before that point.

 

[Phidias]

Phidias can use my thread idgaf

Thanks matey.

I don't like hearing this! I know there are studies that show Curcumin has helped with the left ventricle. Also, when you wake up feeling like that, are you sure it's not sleep apnea?

Though it's not the highly concentrated curcumin extract, I use curcuma with at least two of my meals daily... tastes delicious and really helps with digestion, for I never feel bloated when using it, no matter how big the plate is ... hopefully the few % of curcumin in that powder are heart friendly too... But anyway, I'll definitely be buying the extract soon... too many benefits to go without.

SLEEP APNEA... Honestly, I don't know... might very well be one cause, as I've often been told by my gf that my sleep was "very weird"... periods of heavy breathing followed by, well, "nothing"... or almost no respiration... in any cases, all I know is I'm an absolute wreck when I wake up... so much that I always get up earlier than I'd have to normally, just cause I know it's gonna take me A LOT of time to feel functional and ready for the day.

It's obvious, I have to be tested for sleep anea... but you know how it is, always saying to yourself "oh it will be alright, I'm gonna get better" . But when the situation is getting worse and worse as time goes by, it may be time to do something about it... and not wait for the worst to happen. You're right, thanks Bio.

Hello JC

Did you happen to correct your iron deficiency? Couple other things. As Bio pointed out, is there a possibility that you may have sleep apnea? Or do you drink alcohol prior to bedtime?

You've got a good memory, Stewie!!

After discussing this iron issue with a doc good friend of mine, I chose to NOT supplement it, but rather eat more iron rich foods, get rid of all the nutrients (especially certain fibers) that could prevent its absorption, and increase my Vit C intake... haven't had any bloodwork done since (scheduled in a few weeks), but I've been feeling much less tired DURING THE DAY (vs upon waking up ) lately... might be attributable to this small change.

No alcohol.

 

[Jizzmo]

slice i got similar bloodwork back 3 weeks ago.
ive also been blasting nonstop for about 2 years now, only cruised 2 times for about 10 weeks total.
was on tren 80% of the time.
also lots of orals, the harsh ones (methyltren, m1t, superdrol).
got my bloodwork at the end of a 12 week bulk cycle... used test/npp/tren in ... VERY high dosages. also ran m1t for 3 weeks and sdrol for 3 weeks during that bulk cycle
very high dosages of everything too. i ran about 60mg sdrol a day...
slin (novolog) on workout days for the whole 12 weeks.

when i got bloodwork i had been off the superdrol for 3 weeks, my liver values came back similar
AST 109
ALT 227.
my GGT was normal though (20). does that mean no significant liver damage?
gotta admit i was kinda shocked since i thought 4 weeks on / 4 weeks off orals would let your liver heal completely. guess i was wrong.

cholesterol was also wrecked.
HDL 7
LDL 66, so low too (genetics i guess)
triglycerides 63, also low (seems like AAS only fuck up my HDL)

funny thing is that RBCs and hematocrit are perfectly normal (even on the lower side). so genetics there.

my doc said cholesterol was nothing to worry about though since LDL was low, RBCs, hematocrit and triglycerides were low, blood sugar was low.
my blood pressure is always high during blasts/bulks (140/80 usually), but when im cutting and off tren its normal (120/70, even on 2g of gear).

doc basically told me to get my blood pressure in check, then there would be no real risk of cardiovascular diseases...
he said blood pressure/thickness (hematocrit, RBCs), blood sugar, triglycerides, HDL and LDL work "synergistically" (with regards to heart disease), so as long as you got most in check (especially blood pressure) there would be no significant risk. gotta look at the whole picture here according to him. a low HDL alone is not dangerous with the other numbers in check. since your hematocrit is very high too i'd try to get that in range first.

just a heads up
superdrol is pure poison imo. i dont even want to know how my liver numbers looked during week 3 on it.

and how the fuck are you still alive after running similar dosages for 3x as long... im pretty sure i wouldve ran into liver failure if i had ran the superdrol for 5 or 6 weeks.

im on test/npp right now. im still running kinda high dosages (over a gram), BUT i want to see if supplements and staying off tren and orals work to improve cholesterol numbers, WITHOUT dropping to cruise dosages.

supplementing with curcumin, flush niacin (2g a day), baby aspirin, lots of fish oil (always done that), various vitamins and minerals to bring up my HDL. im really uncomfortable with a number in the single digits. would like to see it above 20 at least, so that the HDL/LDL ratio is in check.

i will retest in ~6-8 weeks and post results.

 

[NY Muscle]

Jizzmo your blood work is not going to come back good/normal until you are off everything for a few months. Those numbers you posted would scare the fuck out of me. When my liver values creep up only a few points over the high limit I freak out.

Not what you want to hear but at some point you have to decide what's more important health or big biceps.

Not that I want to recommend drugs when getting off drugs but maybe get off everything and just stay on low dose gh for a few months. Believe me you will look fine.

Sent from my SM-N900V using Tapatalk 2

 

[Jizzmo]

you cant tell that without trying.
im not worried about my liver at all, i dont drink and dont harm my liver in any way except oral AAS.
liver numbers are in check when off orals.
and unless you completely wreck your liver there are no long term ill effects.

cholesterol - we will see. NPP is supposed to be relatively harmless regarding cholesterol numbers. test is not that bad unless you suppress e2 too hard.

i doubt that ill get my HDL into normal range while staying on, however i believe i can get a reasonable HDL:LDL ratio through supplementation and nutrition, even on high dosages (of course no orals, no tren and no other highly androgenic stuff during the next 2 months).

of course only time will tell. if my HDL has not significantly improved within the next couple weeks i will have cruise on low dose test only for another few weeks/months.

the GH thing is a good option. i would do that, but for me its a financial question and GH is a complete waste of cash in that regard. and i dont trust the chinese crap.
it is how it is.
we will see and i will report back

 

[NY Muscle]

Well good luck be safe and if it doesn't work and if the best you will do with regards to coming off is to cruise then so be it. Maybe low dose trt for a while.

And remember there's always creatine lol. Gotta love coming off for a few months of aas then putting on a few lbs from creatine.

Sent from my SM-N900V using Tapatalk 2

 

[Jizzmo]

Well good luck be safe and if it doesn't work and if the best you will do with regards to coming off is to cruise then so be it. Maybe low dose trt for a while.

And remember there's always creatine lol. Gotta love coming off for a few months of aas then putting on a few lbs from creatine.

Sent from my SM-N900V using Tapatalk 2

i already use it
guess im lost

 

[20sam91]

Jizzmo your blood work is not going to come back good/normal until you are off everything for a few months. Those numbers you posted would scare the fuck out of me. When my liver values creep up only a few points over the high limit I freak out.

Not what you want to hear but at some point you have to decide what's more important health or big biceps.

Not that I want to recommend drugs when getting off drugs but maybe get off everything and just stay on low dose gh for a few months. Believe me you will look fine.

Sent from my SM-N900V using Tapatalk 2

Surely coming off everything cold turkey would be suicidal after being on for 2 years? Why not just drop down to 150-200mg test and do everything in his power to get his numbers in range from there? I'd say the key is not to run crazy high doses again as opposed to crashing his test level.. Jmo

 

[NY Muscle]

Surely coming off everything cold turkey would be suicidal after being on for 2 years? Why not just drop down to 150-200mg test and do everything in his power to get his numbers in range from there? I'd say the key is not to run crazy high doses again as opposed to crashing his test level.. Jmo

Didn't expect him to just stop but taper off properly even add in pct.

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[Elvia1023]

Jizzmo your blood work is not going to come back good/normal until you are off everything for a few months. Those numbers you posted would scare the fuck out of me. When my liver values creep up only a few points over the high limit I freak out.

Not what you want to hear but at some point you have to decide what's more important health or big biceps.

Not that I want to recommend drugs when getting off drugs but maybe get off everything and just stay on low dose gh for a few months. Believe me you will look fine.

Sent from my SM-N900V using Tapatalk 2

I 100% agree with everything you stated. I am not recommending this (it is stupid) but just thought I would mention. I have a few mates who take alot of gear all year round. Any aas can mess up bloodwork and I always recommend blasting and cruising (trt doses) for long periods to competitors. But it is interesting how even high doses of typical injectables run all year can have their bloodwork looking fine. But the likes of sdrol, m1t, tren etc will destroy it even after 6 weeks. One mate uses lots of test and deca and eq (up to 6 grams) and his blood work is always great (it won't stay that way). He added in sdol (don't even think the dose was that high) and his bloodwork went from great to terrible. Obviously there are also guys who use 500mg test and 20mg dbol and their bloodwork goes off the charts. I have never abused myself but luckily my bloodwork has always been great but I am sure that will change over the next few years (I will address it is that ever does happen).

 

[Deleted member 106824]

Didn't expect him to just stop but taper off properly even add in pct.

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Why do you recommend this vs just cruising on say 150mg test? After all he's been on I think the consequences to his body may be worse coming completely off and going through that roller coaster, and adding on PCT drugs on top of that, especially if he plans on jumping back on. I don't see any health issue with a true TRT dose.

 

[gotgame]

Couple of quick points but im glad to see the direction this thread is going in.

1. Just because your AST/ALT are in range doesnt mean that damage wasnt being done before. Sorta like speeding but slowing down when you see a police officer on the side of the road. When you pass him your doing the speed limit but its not a reflection of what your speed was or is going to be in 5 minutes. I guess its sort of obvious but for the people on here who are getting labs done 4-6 weeks into PCT and see that their liver panel is ok, dont just think " oh my liver is fine!". Your liver enzymes can return to normal fairly quickly but people with cirrhosis also can have normal enzymes...keep that in mind.

Yes some subclinical damage is being done but some people repair it better then others. Just dont put urself in this position by using things that will cause damage. I just dont see the reason why some people use orals, especially certain ones and at high dose, your just taking a risk that isnt needed.

2. Estrogen. Since we are talking about liver stuff dont let this be uncontrolled. Talk to mentalflex about hepatic adenomas. Its serious shit people. If your not careful and your estrogen is uncontrolled for a long time you could form one and most of you wont ever make it to the hospital to know what happend. Adenomas can also have androgen receptors so becareful using tren for long periods or at higher doses. About two years ago I had posted that a bodybuilder came into the ER with abdominal pain and died on the IR table while we were trying to embolize. He was mid 30's and had a 10cm adenoma that bled.


3. Look up androgens and glomerulosclerosis. Some good info on EQ and other stuff. While BP is MOST important its also quite possible that using things like tren or other AAS could cause DIRECT kidney injury on top of indirect. Im sure someone will try to point out NSAIDs and renal issues....yea but we arent talking about that, lets stay focused on AAS.


I really am glad to see people getting blood work done and taking some responsbility for their health. AAS can be used with great benefits and minimal health risks but so many people are abusing it and not using them as a tool.

 

[Deleted member 106824]

Couple of quick points but im glad to see the direction this thread is going in.

1. Just because your AST/ALT are in range doesnt mean that damage wasnt being done before. Sorta like speeding but slowing down when you see a police officer on the side of the road. When you pass him your doing the speed limit but its not a reflection of what your speed was or is going to be in 5 minutes. I guess its sort of obvious but for the people on here who are getting labs done 4-6 weeks into PCT and see that their liver panel is ok, dont just think " oh my liver is fine!". Your liver enzymes can return to normal fairly quickly but people with cirrhosis also can have normal enzymes...keep that in mind.

Yes some subclinical damage is being done but some people repair it better then others. Just dont put urself in this position by using things that will cause damage. I just dont see the reason why some people use orals, especially certain ones and at high dose, your just taking a risk that isnt needed.

2. Estrogen. Since we are talking about liver stuff dont let this be uncontrolled. Talk to mentalflex about hepatic adenomas. Its serious shit people. If your not careful and your estrogen is uncontrolled for a long time you could form one and most of you wont ever make it to the hospital to know what happend. Adenomas can also have androgen receptors so becareful using tren for long periods or at higher doses. About two years ago I had posted that a bodybuilder came into the ER with abdominal pain and died on the IR table while we were trying to embolize. He was mid 30's and had a 10cm adenoma that bled.


3. Look up androgens and glomerulosclerosis. Some good info on EQ and other stuff. While BP is MOST important its also quite possible that using things like tren or other AAS could cause DIRECT kidney injury on top of indirect. Im sure someone will try to point out NSAIDs and renal issues....yea but we arent talking about that, lets stay focused on AAS.


I really am glad to see people getting blood work done and taking some responsbility for their health. AAS can be used with great benefits and minimal health risks but so many people are abusing it and not using them as a tool.

Have you come across anyone who abused AAS or alcohol and had poor LFTs but when coming off and taking care of things they had a normal liver ultrasound and normal LTFs...but then somehow later developed an issue?

I ask because that is my situation, at one point had very high liver enzymes (highest I've ever seen someone post....AST: 189 ALT: 628) but from then on they were fine. Did a few oral cycles, but I never drink alcohol (maybe 1 drink every couple of months max) and my liver ultrasound came back "unremarkable" though I believe on the larger size (To be specific: "The liver measures 17.7cm. It is of homogenous echotexture without focal mass").

I've been off gear since January or so, just on 125mg TRT for life now. Wondering if something could still pop up though from that previous 12 month period of on and off orals.

 

[gotgame]

Have you come across anyone who abused AAS or alcohol and had poor LFTs but when coming off and taking care of things they had a normal liver ultrasound and normal LTFs...but then somehow later developed an issue?

I ask because that is my situation, at one point had very high liver enzymes (highest I've ever seen someone post....AST: 189 ALT: 628) but from then on they were fine. Did a few oral cycles, but I never drink alcohol (maybe 1 drink every couple of months max) and my liver ultrasound came back "unremarkable" though I believe on the larger size (To be specific: "The liver measures 17.7cm. It is of homogenous echotexture without focal mass").

I've been off gear since January or so, just on 125mg TRT for life now. Wondering if something could still pop up though from that previous 12 month period of on and off orals.

I see people with really screwed up LFTs all the time but perfectly normal liver ultrasounds. Well ok...where I work i guess the "normal" should be diffuse hepatic steatosis but thats because everyone is obese and doesnt care about their health.

A liver ultrasound is good for some types of masses, more progressed fibrosis, biliary duct issues, and for hepatic steatosis. Sure there a million other things it can be used for but thats what is commonly assessed. Lets say you had a liver ultrasound...did they do a direct capsular image with a high res transducer? If not its sometimes challenging to see. I am NOT an expert on ultrasound elastograpgy or MRI elastography so I cant speak with any sort of authority on those but id imaging those are better tests. Ive never prospectively dont an MRI liver elasto and only done a few ultrasound ones.

As for your liver...thats normal. My default is generally below 20cm in longest dimension and i wont call hepatomegaly. You want it to be homogenous in echogenicity and normal ( not coursened) in echotexture.

Something could absolutely pop up but luckily with your normal liver ultrasound its not likely that you have any large adenomas or an HCC. Personally...i wouldnt lose any sleep about it.

 

[Deleted member 106824]

I see people with really screwed up LFTs all the time but perfectly normal liver ultrasounds. Well ok...where I work i guess the "normal" should be diffuse hepatic steatosis but thats because everyone is obese and doesnt care about their health.

A liver ultrasound is good for some types of masses, more progressed fibrosis, biliary duct issues, and for hepatic steatosis. Sure there a million other things it can be used for but thats what is commonly assessed. Lets say you had a liver ultrasound...did they do a direct capsular image with a high res transducer? If not its sometimes challenging to see. I am NOT an expert on ultrasound elastograpgy or MRI elastography so I cant speak with any sort of authority on those but id imaging those are better tests. Ive never prospectively dont an MRI liver elasto and only done a few ultrasound ones.

As for your liver...thats normal. My default is generally below 20cm in longest dimension and i wont call hepatomegaly. You want it to be homogenous in echogenicity and normal ( not coursened) in echotexture.

Something could absolutely pop up but luckily with your normal liver ultrasound its not likely that you have any large adenomas or an HCC. Personally...i wouldnt lose any sleep about it.

Yea I think I just have somewhat large organs....when I had a colonoscopy to check on my Crohns they told me I had a very large colon lol and in addition to my liver being on the larger-normal side, I think my actual stomach is as well, I know when my brother and I would go to a buffet and eat similar amounts his abdominal area would look almost the same as before, and mine would look literally pregnant.

Thanks for the info, honestly I've done just about all I can regarding fixing my liver enzymes so I was mostly just curious about the risk of something popping up down the line despite normal results in my tests, but like you said it's not something I'm losing sleep over.

 

[Jasons1985]

Take some time off and get healthy Little Slice. You are a great brother to the Pro M community..dont wont to see an R.I.P thread for you in the future.

I am 29 years old and abused a bit when i was a younger reckless/angry person in my late teens/early 20's. Long story short, i only cycle once a year now and look 10 times better then i looked when i abused. Muscle maturity, training consistency and eating habits are what really matters over the long haul..which took me a while to figure out.

 

[nothuman]

Take some time off and get healthy Little Slice. You are a great brother to the Pro M community..dont wont to see an R.I.P thread for you in the future.

I am 29 years old and abused a bit when i was a younger reckless/angry person in my late teens/early 20's. Long story short, i only cycle once a year now and look 10 times better then i looked when i abused. Muscle maturity, training consistency and eating habits are what really matters over the long haul..which took me a while to figure out.

You know what, two years ago I would have blasted you for saying this when I was always on tren, prop, and hgh with hardly any breaks. Now that I'm pretty much a trt only guy (also 29), I've found that it's totally correct. Eating habits really being the main contributor. None of us ever really take breaks from training so that's a given, and the muscle maturity I feel is huge too. Having the muscle mass for a long period of time seems to make it harder to lose it unless you really try to lose it. What's crazy is that I'm actually getting stronger without blasting. It doesn't make any sense but that's actually happening right now. The real key will be when I diet soon to get super ripped.