BULKING DIET... do carb sources really matter?

TooPowerful4u · Apr 30, 2006

About a week ago somebody posted an offseason diet from Sam Zona like 2yrs ago. He said he gained ALOT of weight off of it. The thing i noticed was... he had ALOT of junk food in there, and quality protein. My question is..

As long as the protein sources are quality (quality meats and protein powders and eggs)... does the carb sources really matter? I mean as long as your nailing 300g+ of quality protein, would it matter if theres 500g+ of shitty high GI carbs from cookies, cereal, pizza, etc... as long as they are in there? Only time id think it would matter would be your preworkout meal which you obviously want low GI carbs that will sustain your blood sugar and glycogen levels. (not worried about fat gain in bulking diet, iv had abs since i was 2 no matter what i eat so leave the fat gain concerns out of this topic)

Thoughts?

Jwillbc55 · Apr 30, 2006

I guess it really depends on your metabolism, what you are taking and how health conscious you are. I can't see it being very good for you to consume such high amounts of crappy foods with all that sugar and saturated fats. I know I just feel bad when eating junk

Meat_head · Apr 30, 2006

I think it's not a good idea...at least personally. But everyone is different. My thinking is to eat the same types of carbs you'd eat when dieting down, but just more of them when offseason. A little junk here or there AFTER you have gotten all your good meals in is okay offseason IMO.

glenihan · Apr 30, 2006

i know you said not to mention fat gain, but this is so much about the fat gain ....

i would think that those high GI, crappy sugars would be more likely to aid in fat gain as opposed to building muscle .. while you personally might not really see the effects of the fat gain, you might see less gains in the way of muscle mass than you would if you used oats, sweet potatoes, brown rice, etc.

it seems to me the ultra quick insulin spike associated with junk food would be more likely to shuttle the sugars into willing fat cells as opposed to muscles .. that's just my opinion though .. there are others that obviously know a lot more about this stuff

db006 · Apr 30, 2006

glenihan said:
i know you said not to mention fat gain, but this is so much about the fat gain ....

i would think that those high GI, crappy sugars would be more likely to aid in fat gain as opposed to building muscle .. while you personally might not really see the effects of the fat gain, you might see less gains in the way of muscle mass than you would if you used oats, sweet potatoes, brown rice, etc.

it seems to me the ultra quick insulin spike associated with junk food would be more likely to shuttle the sugars into willing fat cells as opposed to muscles .. that's just my opinion though .. there are others that obviously know a lot more about this stuff

yep thats how it works. but you could get away with stuff like cereal, whole grain breads/bagels, add raisins, all fruit jellies, and if your not really worried about it, then theres some pretty creative stuff you can do to potatoes and oats.

rAJJIN · Apr 30, 2006

see I couldnt live like that every day and well it shows

Im With Paul Bunyan theory of you Must Have a Few Gut Buster meals
here and there like a Large pizza or some Buffets untill about to bust

Im Just a little fella always trying to "bulk up though.. This time of year in my work it gets so DAMN hot out and burning so much off its tough to get the scales to tip my way.

Im not much help,lol Just thinking out loud and curious to here what the Big boys say.

BigSdawg · Apr 30, 2006

rAJJIN said:
see I couldnt live like that every day and well it shows
Im With Paul Bunyan theory of you Must Have a Few Gut Buster meals
here and there like a Large pizza or some Buffets untill about to bust

Im Just a little fella always trying to "bulk up though.. This time of year in my work it gets so DAMN hot out and burning so much off its tough to get the scales to tip my way.

Im not much help,lol Just thinking out loud and curious to here what the Big boys say.

Sometimes in the offseason, like this past year postworkout me and my training partner would go to a chinese buffet or pizza buffet, or i would just order a large pizza, i figure if im going to eat some junk ima do 110% and after working a muscle im trying to bring up. That or incorporate a super super highcarb day, with around 100g carb meals, every 2hrs just bring that fat intake really low. But junk everyday, i couldnt do that, it would mess with my physci to much.

sage

bigheinz · May 1, 2006

The main problem is not the Junk Food ins the source of energy you need to train, remember how fast simple sugars are burned in our system, and it may produce a failure of energy during workouts, and the worst thing is if you eat only simple sugars you are one of the first candidates to have sugar problems and more options to get it if you are on slim, gh and as.

It is very good for everybody to cheat on the diet even in the pre contest and contest diet, but never avoid totaly the intake of your friends rice, potatoes, etc... I couldnt live without pizza and ice cream too bro, but i think i couldnt live without a big plate of rice with beans and a big 1.5 pounds London Broiled Steak.

I am not to very good explaining chemistry and i am terrible explaining chemistry in english but i hope you undertand my point.

Remember my off season diet??? http://www.professionalmuscle.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2071

bigheinz · May 1, 2006

BigSdawg said:
Sometimes in the offseason, like this past year postworkout me and my training partner would go to a chinese buffet or pizza buffet, or i would just order a large pizza, i figure if im going to eat some junk ima do 110% and after working a muscle im trying to bring up. That or incorporate a super super highcarb day, with around 100g carb meals, every 2hrs just bring that fat intake really low. But junk everyday, i couldnt do that, it would mess with my physci to much.

sage

I love this bro i miss my offseason is the best... i use to go too i love pizza and ice cream, and the chinese buffet is the best, all you c an eat for $7.99 or here we have in miami the Knife is a Argentina's beef Buffet all you can eat for $19 with a bottle of wine for each person.

BigSdawg · May 1, 2006

bigheinz said:
I love this bro i miss my offseason is the best... i use to go too i love pizza and ice cream, and the chinese buffet is the best, all you c an eat for $7.99 or here we have in miami the Knife is a Argentina's beef Buffet all you can eat for $19 with a bottle of wine for each person.

oh man, we have this brazilian place, 20bucks as much beef/pork/lamb/chicken etc as u want thats always fuckin great or some CiCi''s Pizza, i dont know if they have them there but its probably the best pizza buffet ever!

sage

SZona · May 1, 2006

I would say that the carb sources definitely matter. My problem at the time was that I was eating too clean. I literally would eat too good in the off-season and I was not taking in enough calories to make the gains I needed to. I was in a position where I needed to make a weight class transition and the current diet I was following wasn't going to cut it. Fat was too low, carbs were too low and cals were definitely too low. It was very difficult psychologically for me to follow that diet, and eat that bad. My metabolism adjusted relatively quiickly and my fat gain were not nearly as bad as I expected. Problem was that I felt terrible. Tired, sluggish, seemingly very little energy. My workouts were still good but it was the rest of the day I struggled. I did not gain alot of fat on this program (my abs were faint but visible at 270) but I did hold (as I am sure you can imagine) a ton of water. The primary benefit that I remember was the effect of suddenly switching back to clean food. It was very dramatic! I had always required 16 weeks of dieting in the past and seemngly had to do a ton of cardio and make drastic carb reductions in order to lose fat. After eating like this for about 12 weeks then switchin back to cleaner foods I got in shape very fast (about 8-9) weeks and did about half the amount of cardio. I did gain about 7 lbs of lean muscle from this which really seems a very small % of the 50+ that I had gained. Primary things I learned was that by eating too clean year around I was limiting my metabolism which left me needing extreme changes in order to lose fat. I also learned I wasn't eating nearly enough to make the kind of gains that I needed to make at that time. Would I do it again? No. Probably couldn't if I wanted to. I am not quite sure how I managed to consume all that food. LOL!

SZ

bigheinz · May 1, 2006

The same thing happends to me, is not the same when already are in 270 pounds and there is a lot of difference when a 270 pounds guy try to get ready to competition in comparation with a 220 pounds athlete, so you need you adjust your off season diet and learn to know your limits, but deffinetly you need differents sousrce of calories.

If you have any dudes just see the last pics of Ronie Coleman guest posing, he is full of fat and water.

How do you think you can get bigger eating clean with 270 pounds, you need to eat calories and with a good combo of supplements, training and drugs you will achieve new mass with around no more than 10% body fat.

phreak · May 1, 2006

so then, would it be best to keep your mainstays as clean sources of macros, and when you are trying to gain weight just throw in a few gut busting cheat meals a week?

RazorCuts · May 1, 2006

It still comes down to overall calories. If you can gain weight by eating clean and getting over your maintenance level then this is the best way. It all depends how many calories you need. A guy needing 3000 is a lot different then a guy nedding 6000. I feel that you should eat clean 90% of the time. You can gain muscle with as little as 250 cals over maintenance.
I think you are better off getting more cals from good fat sources then junk carbs.
It does not hurt to loosen up once in awhile and have a cheat meal once or twice a week.
The 2 steps ahead(2wks High Calorie) 1 step back(1wk Low Calorie) program works great to for bulking with minimal fat gain.

RC

bulldog21 · May 1, 2006

RazorCuts said:
It still comes down to overall calories. If you can gain weight by eating clean and getting over your maintenance level then this is the best way. It all depends how many calories you need. A guy needing 3000 is a lot different then a guy nedding 6000. I feel that you should eat clean 90% of the time. You can gain muscle with as little as 250 cals over maintenance.
I think you are better off getting more cals from good fat sources then junk carbs.
It does not hurt to loosen up once in awhile and have a cheat meal once or twice a week.
The 2 steps ahead(2wks High Calorie) 1 step back(1wk Low Calorie) program works great to for bulking with minimal fat gain.

RC

Very Good post Razor, I agree it comes down to calories..... quality calories over your maintenence... but I too had to learn this "on my own"...lol basically the hard way

Two offseasons ago I ate like Szona & BigHeinz and tried to "push" my metabolism as much as I can as I wanted to move from Light heavyweight to heavyweight last year. When I started my diet for my 16 week prep my body quickly adjusted as well to the change in diet and changed rapidly, I had put on about 20 pounds of muscle from the last show. This past offseason my diet was alot cleaner with alot of quality calories and some cheat meals here and there, and again I have put on about 10 more pounds of muscle, the verdict is out yet as to whether I land in the supers or top of the heavies, not too concearned as I still have gained another 10 pounds of quality muscle just need to make sure I diet down properly......

SZona · May 1, 2006

I agree

RazorCuts said:
It still comes down to overall calories. If you can gain weight by eating clean and getting over your maintenance level then this is the best way. It all depends how many calories you need. A guy needing 3000 is a lot different then a guy nedding 6000. I feel that you should eat clean 90% of the time. You can gain muscle with as little as 250 cals over maintenance.
I think you are better off getting more cals from good fat sources then junk carbs.
It does not hurt to loosen up once in awhile and have a cheat meal once or twice a week.
RC

I agree and pretty much follow this protocol now. Maybe not 90%
but at least 80-85% of the time. I pretty much save my cheating for the weekend and eat clean M-F. This was an experiment and served its purpose at the time, but couldn't repeat. The problem for me at the time was getting the calories I needed from clean food. It was just too volumous. So, I junked it up a little

SZ

RazorCuts · May 1, 2006

In this business BS sells and the truth is just to basic that people seem to avoid it. People love some wacky training ,diet or supplement because it makes them feel like they got a chance or thier money's worth.
If you use a hundred routines, diets, supps and still do not get to were you think you want to be you need to accept your genetic limitations.
Most people live in a fantasy world no matter what it pertains to.
K.I.S.S. my friends.

RC

bigheinz · May 1, 2006

Thats it just adjust and find your own way to mantain the gains.
Just imagine to get 8000 cals from a clean diet....Imposible, so doing like carb loading days with some extra sources will help to get the gains you need always tracking your body fat and mirror checking....very simple.

The only thing you have to be carefull is when you get old like me, your metabolism is not the same and you need to be carefull with your off season.

Between your beggining for example like me frmo 18 years old thru 30 years old i was eating every thing i can, and when i was 28 years old i got 295 pounds with 12% bf eating 9000 to 12000 cals a day, but know i cant do this any more so in my last off season last year from july to september i was between 5000 to 8000 ( 8000 cals on training days (3 to 4 times a week)) and it help me to achieve 15 pounds from the 2005 night of champions (220 pounds) to the 2006 SAn Francisco Pro with 235 pounds. you can see the difference in http://www.ironpeople.com/makeover.html#

PD. this is not an advertising but you can call me my rates are low

SZona · May 1, 2006

ok...

RazorCuts said:
In this business BS sells and the truth is just to basic that people seem to avoid it. People love some wacky training ,diet or supplement because it makes them feel like they got a chance or thier money's worth.
If you use a hundred routines, diets, supps and still do not get to were you think you want to be you need to accept your genetic limitations.
Most people live in a fantasy world no matter what it pertains to.
K.I.S.S. my friends.

RC

I have been following this thread and fail to see where you made this leap.

If the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and exepecting a different result and by your definition, trying and experimenting with new things (diets, training, supplements, etc) is equal to BS, delusions and Fantasy Land..... what dare I ask is the sane approach to this somewhat insane endeavor?

Just curious

SZ