conflicting information

[guile_99703]

I have been reading allot of conflicting and confusing things around the different sites and forums, I'm hopping some of the more experienced guys can help me get all ot this into perspective.

I have read on a couple sites that the most impressive first cycle transformations will come from a Tren/dbol or Tren/var stack, but any time I ask about these stacks on message boards I'm told that Tren should never be used in a first cycle...
(I can appreciate that tren has sides, but if you're taught what to expect, and are ready to deal with it, shouldn't tren be just as feasible as any other steroid?)

I have read that tren will help you drop body fat, but also read that it lowers your thyroid function and you should take t3 with tren to counter the affect?

In " Cycle length, dosages, and sanity" Dad says:

There is not one beginner who needs more than 350 TOTAL mg (that means all the drugs you plan on taking added together) per week.
The MAX would look like: Test pro 40mg/eod, dbol 20mg/ed, and 10mg/ed Nolva (I guess you could use Adex and increase your test by 9mg and your dbol by 4.9mg)

But in "Growth principles for beginners" Big A says:

Test at 750mg/week
deca or Eq at 400mg/week
d-bol at 30mg/d or A-50 50mg/d.... That's 1.5g a week, over 4 times as much as Dad recommends

Short cycles/long cycles, run it nonstop as long as your blood tests aren't too scary...???

 

[Dad]

The confusion comes in here:
Big A outlined what someone who's not a seasoned, experienced person might do as reasonable. THis is not to say that one shuold do this as a very first cycle. "Beginning Cycle" means newer to AAS use, not virgin.

My post was to all the guys who come on Pro Muscle with stats like 5' 11," 180-200, 15%+ bodyfat, have worked out a year or two maybe, don't really know much about diet or training, and think they shuold be starting a very first cycle with 750, 1000, 1200, or more mgs of AAS, three or four different compounds, etc, etc.

So who's right?
Well, a guy doing his third cycle is still a beginner, but, depending upon his stats and specifics of his length of training and diet experience, might well be fine with what Big A recommends.
A guy who's in his teens/very early twenties who resembles the profile above, and has never done any AAS is a different story.

As far as cycle length, think about this from a common sense perpective. If you've never done AAS before, have no idea which sides you're prone to or to what degree, doesn't it make sense to start out conservatively, and learn how your body responds? Try six (no more than eight) weeks, see what the first cycle tells you. Then you've got information and experince to draw from shuold you decide to do another cycle.

Hope this helps...

 

[guile_99703]

I'm about 30yr, 6ft, 15%bf, 250lbs, I have about 10yr total training, I have been making changes to my diet for a little while now but it only affects my body fat, so I seem to be stuck as far as natural muscle gains go.

I hear that the first cycle will give the most dramatic results, if that's true I would really like to maximize them (after all you never get a second first chance).

I want to lean-out, harden up and make some gains during this cycle, I also want to keep any gains I make, so I know PCT is going to play a big role in making this cycle a success.

I don't mind using more expensive gear, having to take a couple different pills or shots a day and keeping on a strict schedule. What's most important to me is getting the best possible results.

I planned on using Test Pro and Anavar on cycle along with Arimidex to keep estrogen down, and HCG (around 75iu HCG ed, or 150iu/eod).
For PCT I figured I might swap Arimidex for Aromasin, take HCG (500iu/ed for 5 days), IGF-1 (50mcg/ed), and Fareston on a 3 week taper (90 down to 30mg/ed).

If Tren can help I figure its worth a try, I have read that Bromo 2.5mg/ed on cycle will inhibit Tren tits (gyno from prolactin).
(I just heard from a supplier that they had recently dropped Bromo because too many bros were getting sick, I remember reading that that nausea was a side of Bromo, but is it that common, and that bad?)

Any thoughts on the best possible combination of gear/dosage would be very much appreciated.

 

[Tyrone]

I'm about 30yr, 6ft, 15%bf, 250lbs, I have about 10yr total training, I have been making changes to my diet for a little while now but it only affects my body fat, so I seem to be stuck as far as natural muscle gains go.

I hear that the first cycle will give the most dramatic results, if that's true I would really like to maximize them (after all you never get a second first chance).

I want to lean-out, harden up and make some gains during this cycle, I also want to keep any gains I make, so I know PCT is going to play a big role in making this cycle a success.

I don't mind using more expensive gear, having to take a couple different pills or shots a day and keeping on a strict schedule. What's most important to me is getting the best possible results.

I planned on using Test Pro and Anavar on cycle along with Arimidex to keep estrogen down, and HCG (around 75iu HCG ed, or 150iu/eod).
For PCT I figured I might swap Arimidex for Aromasin, take HCG (500iu/ed for 5 days), IGF-1 (50mcg/ed), and Fareston on a 3 week taper (90 down to 30mg/ed).

If Tren can help I figure its worth a try, I have read that Bromo 2.5mg/ed on cycle will inhibit Tren tits (gyno from prolactin).
(I just heard from a supplier that they had recently dropped Bromo because too many bros were getting sick, I remember reading that that nausea was a side of Bromo, but is it that common, and that bad?)

Any thoughts on the best possible combination of gear/dosage would be very much appreciated.

Test Enanthate 500mgs. wks. 1-10
Pct would be nolva and Clomid(you can find the dosages on those)
Diet/Trainning will dictate gains!
Trust me when I say go longer estered it is just much easier to inject once or twice a week than ED or EOD...Trust me!

 

[guile_99703]

Test Enanthate 500mgs. wks. 1-10
Pct would be nolva and Clomid(you can find the dosages on those)
Diet/Trainning will dictate gains!
Trust me when I say go longer estered it is just much easier to inject once or twice a week than ED or EOD...Trust me!

This may sound ODD but I feel more comfortable with the idea of short ester Test, and for a couple reasons that may seem trivial to most people, but I will give you some insight into the depth and degree of my disorder (if you are interested)...

1, I prefer to structure my routines so that they are as consistent as possible from day to day (or every other day).
Once or twice a week things like weekends (days off/holidays) use to really mess me up, and tended to affect my next "normal scheduled day". So now I literally exercise, eat, and rest the exact same way on friday, saturday, and sunday as I would any other a regular weekday.
In my world there are no holidays, just frequent "snow days" that allow me to get caught up on those errands I had been putting off..

2, Short esters have short half lives, (being my first cycle) if I feel that if I am uncomfortable with AAS (for any reason) I can have them out of my system as quickly as possible, hopefully allowing me to return to a state that I am more accustom to, and affording me an opportunity to accurately asses what had gone wrong so that modifications can be made to accommodate a future cycle (If I choose to have one).

3, In my view long esters appear to be a tool/convince that should be afforded to someone who fully appreciates and understands its impact/influence on their life, much like a calculator would be to an engineer... Using that analogy, I feel that I am more like a student (still gaining an appreciation for the fundamentals) using a tool or convince at this time may hinder my full appreciation of what it is that I am trying to learn. At such an early stage, while developing the most fundamental building blocks (the foundation so to speak), ignorance here could lead to early and catastrophic failure...

I know I must come off as overly cautious, analytical, and micro managing, but since I am not religious these are some of the disciplines that contribute to the legitimization of my reality/existence (in my mind anyway).
Believe it or not I have never failed a psyc eval, I even did quite well in the military until my family obligations began to take higher priority.

 

[guile_99703]

Blah,blah, blah................use the longer ester.

Zuke.... I like your response, its brief and to the point.... But what if I already have ten 20ml vials of Test Pro?

 

[Big A]

This may sound ODD but I feel more comfortable with the idea of short ester Test, and for a couple reasons that may seem trivial to most people, but I will give you some insight into the depth and degree of my disorder (if you are interested)...

1, I prefer to structure my routines so that they are as consistent as possible from day to day (or every other day).
Once or twice a week things like weekends (days off/holidays) use to really mess me up, and tended to affect my next "normal scheduled day". So now I literally exercise, eat, and rest the exact same way on friday, saturday, and sunday as I would any other a regular weekday.
In my world there are no holidays, just frequent "snow days" that allow me to get caught up on those errands I had been putting off..

2, Short esters have short half lives, (being my first cycle) if I feel that if I am uncomfortable with AAS (for any reason) I can have them out of my system as quickly as possible, hopefully allowing me to return to a state that I am more accustom to, and affording me an opportunity to accurately asses what had gone wrong so that modifications can be made to accommodate a future cycle (If I choose to have one).

3, In my view long esters appear to be a tool/convince that should be afforded to someone who fully appreciates and understands its impact/influence on their life, much like a calculator would be to an engineer... Using that analogy, I feel that I am more like a student (still gaining an appreciation for the fundamentals) using a tool or convince at this time may hinder my full appreciation of what it is that I am trying to learn. At such an early stage, while developing the most fundamental building blocks (the foundation so to speak), ignorance here could lead to early and catastrophic failure...

I know I must come off as overly cautious, analytical, and micro managing, but since I am not religious these are some of the disciplines that contribute to the legitimization of my reality/existence (in my mind anyway).
Believe it or not I have never failed a psyc eval, I even did quite well in the military until my family obligations began to take higher priority.

I am very much like that in my whole life. Everything I do is first written in my diary and I do everything in the order that I have designated. I get SO PISSED if someone or something makes me deviate from my schedule!

 

[Tyrone]

This may sound ODD but I feel more comfortable with the idea of short ester Test, and for a couple reasons that may seem trivial to most people, but I will give you some insight into the depth and degree of my disorder (if you are interested)...

1, I prefer to structure my routines so that they are as consistent as possible from day to day (or every other day).
Once or twice a week things like weekends (days off/holidays) use to really mess me up, and tended to affect my next "normal scheduled day". So now I literally exercise, eat, and rest the exact same way on friday, saturday, and sunday as I would any other a regular weekday.
In my world there are no holidays, just frequent "snow days" that allow me to get caught up on those errands I had been putting off..

2, Short esters have short half lives, (being my first cycle) if I feel that if I am uncomfortable with AAS (for any reason) I can have them out of my system as quickly as possible, hopefully allowing me to return to a state that I am more accustom to, and affording me an opportunity to accurately asses what had gone wrong so that modifications can be made to accommodate a future cycle (If I choose to have one).

3, In my view long esters appear to be a tool/convince that should be afforded to someone who fully appreciates and understands its impact/influence on their life, much like a calculator would be to an engineer... Using that analogy, I feel that I am more like a student (still gaining an appreciation for the fundamentals) using a tool or convince at this time may hinder my full appreciation of what it is that I am trying to learn. At such an early stage, while developing the most fundamental building blocks (the foundation so to speak), ignorance here could lead to early and catastrophic failure...

I know I must come off as overly cautious, analytical, and micro managing, but since I am not religious these are some of the disciplines that contribute to the legitimization of my reality/existence (in my mind anyway).
Believe it or not I have never failed a psyc eval, I even did quite well in the military until my family obligations began to take higher priority.

Then you are one of the few Newer to AAS that will prob. be discipline enough to do it correctly...

 

[Zuke]

Hey Bro,


Well then, if you already have the prop. I guess you should use it!! If you are leary as what to use for your next cycle, just be sure to ask before you buy anything. Goodluck bro!!!!

 

[guile_99703]

Hey Bro,


Well then, if you already have the prop. I guess you should use it!! If you are leary as what to use for your next cycle, just be sure to ask before you buy anything. Goodluck bro!!!!

I have some Testosterone Enanthate on its way, it just hasn't gotten to me yet..

Its actually Trenbolone Acetate that I'm a little leary about..

I read that it gives incredible first cycle gains when used with Dianabol or Anavar, but it receives a very negative response when I inquire about using it in a first cycle.

 

[Zuke]

Bro,

I used Tren Ace in my first cycle (had NO idea what I was doing). I gained
34lbs in 7 weeks. Combined w/ Test Cyp.

 

[Anti_hero]

I have some Testosterone Enanthate on its way, it just hasn't gotten to me yet..

Its actually Trenbolone Acetate that I'm a little leary about..

I read that it gives incredible first cycle gains when used with Dianabol or Anavar, but it receives a very negative response when I inquire about using it in a first cycle.

I would leave out the tren for now. Your first cycle is going to yield incredible gains no matter what you use as long as its done correctly. IMO a first cycle should consist of test only, so you know how your body responds as test is a base for all cycles. With that said if you want to kick off your cycle with an oral dbol is a good way to go for 4-6 weeks at about 20 mg's.

 

[guile_99703]

I would leave out the tren for now. Your first cycle is going to yield incredible gains no matter what you use as long as its done correctly. IMO a first cycle should consist of test only, so you know how your body responds as test is a base for all cycles. With that said if you want to kick off your cycle with an oral dbol is a good way to go for 4-6 weeks at about 20 mg's.

I fully agree with the idea of introducing a single variable at a time, and because I have not used any ASS, Test should be the obvious first choice (because it really is the base of most cycles).

I have read that the first cycle is going to yield incredible gains no matter what you use, and prompts three different thoughts in my mind:

1, I think I misstate what it is I'm trying to say, I think the word used on one site was "transformation". It struck me to mean that even though there would be significant muscular gains, there would also be a substantial drop in body fat (the overall effect would be the most extreme compared to any other combination of AAS)

2, If I were to start off with 2-4 weeks of Test-pro @ 70mg/ed (or Test-Ena @ 150mg/eod), then for the next 2-4 weeks ad an oral (like dbol or anavar) followed by another 2-4 weeks with the addition of Tren-ace (like 2w Test, 2w Test/Var and 4w Test/Tren/Var) This would allow time to get a little feel of each of the different AAS, and better understand the effects of each of the additions by comparing it to the last combination. In this way if one addition creates an unappealing effect I can simply remove it and continue my cycle in its absence?

3, Am I looking at this the wrong way altogether, maybe I should look into AAS's that have less sides like Masteron, from what I've read it would be the closest thing to a perfect steroid if you could make better gains on it?

 

[Zuke]

Too many compounds. You are making this complicated. You do not need Anavar, Masteron, or Tren. Just do 12 weeks @ 500mg (cyp or Enan)


You keep mentioning you wanna see how your body reacts to differents compounds (which is a good idea) just save it for later down the road. This cycle means you only injecyt 2X a week.Goodluck!

 

[Anti_hero]

I agree with Zuke, you are making this too complicated. Stick to test, the other reason I dont agree with your choice of all the compounds like you refered to...

"2, If I were to start off with 2-4 weeks of Test-pro @ 70mg/ed (or Test-Ena @ 150mg/eod), then for the next 2-4 weeks ad an oral (like dbol or anavar) followed by another 2-4 weeks with the addition of Tren-ace (like 2w Test, 2w Test/Var and 4w Test/Tren/Var) This would allow time to get a little feel of each of the different AAS, and better understand the effects of each of the additions by comparing it to the last combination. In this way if one addition creates an unappealing effect I can simply remove it and continue my cycle in its absence?"

...is because some of the compounds ie; test E, anavar, and tren are going to take longer than two weeks to see the effects...so your really not going to know what is what.

Pick a long acting ester like test E or Cyp and shoot it twice a week if your hell bent on more frequent injects. Prop is a lot of poking for your first cycle and especially if your going to be running it for 10 plus weeks.