Cycle question - Androgens vs. Anabolics

[drgoodbody]

Every time I've cycled I've always kept it simple and gone with higher androgens and moderate/low doses of more anabolic substances. Like to hear some opinions on higher androgens vs. higher anabolics. For example, my typical cycle is:

1 g test enanthate/week
500 mg EQ/week or 500 mg Tren/week
Total AAS= 1500 mg/week

How does that compare to say:

250mg test enanthate/week (prinicipally for libido)
400 mg Tren/week
500 mg EQ/week
350 mg Winny/week
Total AAS= 1500 mg/week

In terms of LBM gains, assuming diet and training to be roughly equal, which is superior or are they basically equal? My body doesn't aromatize test very aggressively, so I seldom need an anti-aromatase or SERM and I don't bloat up (I've had plenty of bloodwork at 1 g/week of test that shows virtually no estrogen/estradiol, guess I'm just a lucky fuck).

Now for the opinions, let's hear it bro's.

DrG

 

[MikeS]

Although it seems like a simple answer, it all depends on the person from what Ive seen. Some guys can do high test-androgens/low anabolics; then add alot more anabolics like deca and it really makes a huge difference.
I personally prefer heavy on the test.

 

[xcelbeyond]

I always do an anabolic with an androgen - just what was driven into my head.

I consider tren an androgen more than an anabolic.

xcel

 

[AllahRaver]

I always do an anabolic with an androgen - just what was driven into my head.

I consider tren an androgen more than an anabolic.

xcel

Mine as well...I've NEVER tried a pure Androgen stack, even after Duchaine pretty much advocated a straight 600mg - 1g Test cycle.

I just feel like something's missing if there's not an anabolic in there as well.

And Tren, after all, is purported to be 2x as Androgenic as Test, without the sides, which is what's made it so attractive...

 

[Big Fucker]

And Tren, after all, is purported to be 2x as Androgenic as Test, without the sides, which is what's made it so attractive...

Without the sides? I personally get alot more sides from tren. Acne, anxiety, hairloss, and BP is at its worst when I'm on tren... But then again I'm one of the few that do not worship Tren..

 

[Queefer]

If it were me and I was working with the drugs you just mentioned, and were trying to get the best bang/buck, I would go with 750mg TEST/week, 75mg TREN/day (b/c tren is very inexpensive and this is what I think is the highest dose/gains/least side effects possible), and 50mg WINNY eod(I'd only use this if I was a month or two out of a contest). I'd throw some CLEN in if at all possible b/c it's cheap. All this would only cost around $200/month. You could use this stack for optimal growth or to lean up. This is what works for me, but as you'll see, it's all about trial and error and seeing what works for YOU. I hope this helps, good luck, Q.

 

[drgoodbody]

Alright, now you got me thinking that I apparently am confused about the anabolic:androgenic ratio for some AAS - namely Tren. Does anyone have a source for the ratios? And I have to believe that some competitors are running hard on anabolics and with low androgens just prior to competition - but they're probably starving themselves too, so no LBM gains there. Geez, I read an article by Dennis Newman a long time ago where he swore by high anabolic cycles, said he always hated the sides that came from strong androgens. So he'd run Deca, Winny, EQ, Anavar, Primo, etc... not even sure test was in there at all (his dick must have been dead.)

Come on brothers, somebody has to have been guinea pig enough to run this on themselves (BTW - I CAN'T believe there is something that Raver and Xcel haven't done gear wise - I was convinced you guys were gear junkies walkin' around with a pin in your ass just like me... ... what a let down LOL!)

Doc

 

[AllahRaver]

Doc...

I'm a little confused as to your question:

"Every time I've cycled I've always kept it simple and gone with higher androgens and moderate/low doses of more anabolic substances. Like to hear some opinions on higher androgens vs. higher anabolics..."

Are you asking about running a higher androgen load than anabolic (which it seems you've been doing), or a higher anabolic load than androgenic?

FWIW, I've always done pretty much the same thing you've been doing -- a roughly 65%-70% androgen / 35%-30% anabolic ratio.

 

[drgoodbody]

Sorry for the confusion Rave - re-reading my question, it was badly worded. Let me try again.

I have always used more Androgens than Anabolics, like a 2/3 to 1/3 ratio. During these cycles I always seem to gain overall size, a decent amount of which is fat (but not too much water, been lucky with estrogen). The fat gains have proven difficult to lose at times. So I have been wondering if I would do better with more anabolic compounds and fewer androgenic compounds in terms of gain LBM with less fat gain. Just a theory, looking for advice.

Hope that's clearer.

Doc

 

[CriticalMass]

ive tended

to bloat more noticably with andro only cycles .. but then again i suspect these are the nuances that i didnt take note of earlier on, that anabolics remedied .. .ie shape .. when i have shape i dont notice bloat aside from the obvious ..abs etc ... anabolics are essential.. for me at least .. but then again i guess it depends on where u want to be?? size , shape etc etc

 

[Paul Bunyan]

With cycles that are primarily anabolic your gains are usually slower but more solid. Highly anrdogenic cycles usually come with a fair amount of water and fat gain.

I'ved tried both and it depends on the goal at the time. For the most part I run highly anabolic cycles . When I'n getting ready for a meet I switch to the androgens for the strength gains.

I don't need to gain anymore weigh so that isn't an issue with me. I just need to be able to recover from the heavy workouts.

PB

 

[AllahRaver]

Sorry for the confusion Rave - re-reading my question, it was badly worded. Let me try again.

I have always used more Androgens than Anabolics, like a 2/3 to 1/3 ratio. During these cycles I always seem to gain overall size, a decent amount of which is fat (but not too much water, been lucky with estrogen). The fat gains have proven difficult to lose at times. So I have been wondering if I would do better with more anabolic compounds and fewer androgenic compounds in terms of gain LBM with less fat gain. Just a theory, looking for advice.

Hope that's clearer.

Doc

The fellow above, who owns a blue ox, hit this one pretty much on the head.

Gains from anabolics like Deca or EQ *do* tend to come slower, but last longer, and result in less water retention. In the off season, I used to run Test and Deca at a 60/40 ratio, and as spring approached, stock up on Clomid and HCG, then dial up the anabolic dosage and scale back the androgens.

I think my all-time favorite cycle is still either Cyp or Enan at 500-750mg / week, combined with 400mg Deca a week and a moderate (25-30mg/day) dose of Dbol to kick-start. In a close second is the classic Dbol/Deca cycle, for the exact reason Paul states above: While the Dbol will initiate the sauce effect, the Deca will both provide lubrication for the joints and pack on solid mass, once it kicks in and given you're consuming enough calories.

The only downside to the high anabolic run is it's evil effect on HPTA...Even if you've run Clomid at 50mg/day (or EOD), it's a good idea to keep a 1000iu HCG kit around, and administer the preggo-piss juice at 250iu every 3 days about 2 weeks after discontinuing the Clomid.

 

[drgoodbody]

Thanks brothers - that's what I suspected (slower gains, but very solid). With summer approaching I think I will give a higher dose anabolic cycle a try.

Rave - when you run dbol/deca, how is your libido? I like to fuck to like a hog in heat, so that's why I was planning to keep a low test dose in there (like 250mg/week). Doesn't sound necessary, but LMK your experience.

Doc

 

[weight77]

This is actually what I am getting read to do. I have been clean for about 4 1/2 weeks now. I am getting ready to run a small cycle that will be 600mg of eq and 250 mg of test. I am using eq because it has always made my appetite go crazy. I will probably stick with this until I get back to 100%. I am just trying to get back 5-10lbs of weight and think this should do it.

 

[AllahRaver]

Thanks brothers - that's what I suspected (slower gains, but very solid). With summer approaching I think I will give a higher dose anabolic cycle a try.

Rave - when you run dbol/deca, how is your libido? I like to fuck to like a hog in heat, so that's why I was planning to keep a low test dose in there (like 250mg/week). Doesn't sound necessary, but LMK your experience.

Doc

Oh hell yes, dude...throw in 250mg Test if you can. Deca/Dbol doesn't screw up my libido...until I stop the Dbol at the end of week 4!!! Then it's no playtime for about 10 weeks.

That 250mg of Test will replace what your body isn't producing from the HPTA shutdown, and keep Willie working. Still, don't neglect the Clomid and HCG.

 

[Swolecows]

I like Tren and Winny. I use about 300 mg of prop a week to keep the sex drive up and increase gains a bit. I like the way I look on Androgens. If your diet is sound and the training is intense, you should be able to make significant gains on most cycles, (at least I do)

 

[MikeS]

A good thread here...No anabolics in general wont cause extreme HPTA shutdown. Its just the Deca and its progesteronic activity that can do this. Most of the HPTA downgrade can also caused by aromitazation, which will happen of course to a greater degree with androgens like test, dbol... unless an anti-estro or blocker is used.
The reason anabolics alone will fuck with your libido is there is always some HPTA shutdown (although more with the greater amounts of amomatizing or progesteronic steroids). And if your cycle doesnt provide enough androgens, and also the HPTA shut down will eliminate endogenious androgen-you are left with ZILCH!
I would have no problem doing an androgen only cycle (especially the first 2/3 of the cycle) but I like deca also for its joint soothing properties. But at the last 1/3 cycle, I would use mostly either androgens or anabolics-with the condition that they were non-aromatizing. Add a little prop only at this point. So here you will be left with your so-called 'solid gains'.

 

[TooPowerful4u]

1. heavy androgens cuase me to break out bad lol

2. iv tried test only cycle (androgen) and it was nowhere near as good as when i backed down the test and threw in an anabolic like deca.

3. I got best results when androgens and anabolics were almost balanced evenly.

 

[Ethan James]

04-13-2003, 05:40 PM
BIGKIWI
IFBB PRO

was using for show

sus 500mg week ( dont laugh ) I find I grow better lower test higher anabolics

winni tabs per day up to 300mg

masteron tabs per day 150mg

eq 400mg week

tren 160mg week

http://www.professionalmuscle.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3193&page=2&pp=20&highlight=high