Did AAS Lower my Ejection Fraction, and is it Permanent?

[nothuman]

NH,



It's scary to know how few people never get checked.

The "hey, I feel great" attitude is not the measure of health.



Or they do only after taking a break, letting their system clear, not

being honest with their doctor, and drawing conclusions after they get the

results.



It's nothing short of living in a lie.



You and Pumped are on the right track! Good job!!!!!!!



-MT

Thanks MT. I had an enlarged aortic root and needed surgery to fix it (made a thread awhile back). It's the kind of thing that's also asymptomatic, which is why bloodwork isn't the only thing people need to check.

 

[Jblack]

I have posted this in other threads before but want to say this.

I have had an ejection fraction of 50 to 55%. My heart is slightly enlarged in the LV. All the common stuff associated with AAS use and working out. I went on a cycle and had it done and had it done after cycle when I was off all of it and I mean off all of it. Same.

I do my cardio and all that. My cardiologist simply said its luck of the draw and nothing to worry about. He has had the same amount of healthy people kill over and the same amount of unhealthy.

Granted what we do is a risk, but I do not think its any worse than any other thing you can get sucked into.

Its all a matter of luck. I go every year due to my brittle bone disease the collagen in my body does not work properly therefore I am at a higher risk for heart valves to leak and my mitral valve to incur calcification. Every year my echo is the same whether one or off. Genetics play so much into this.

I believe if your going to do steroids and stress over it then spend the money and get an echo and stress test. Bloods only show so much - which is what others say and I agree with that.

Bottom line if your going to be paranoid while doing this stuff then this stuff just isnt for you.

Pump - I am sure its all going to be ok my man. Keep your head up and most of all quit worrying too much because you can drive yourself mad - I have been there before.

 

[nothuman]

I have posted this in other threads before but want to say this.

I have had an ejection fraction of 50 to 55%. My heart is slightly enlarged in the LV. All the common stuff associated with AAS use and working out. I went on a cycle and had it done and had it done after cycle when I was off all of it and I mean off all of it. Same.

I do my cardio and all that. My cardiologist simply said its luck of the draw and nothing to worry about. He has had the same amount of healthy people kill over and the same amount of unhealthy.

Granted what we do is a risk, but I do not think its any worse than any other thing you can get sucked into.

Its all a matter of luck. I go every year due to my brittle bone disease the collagen in my body does not work properly therefore I am at a higher risk for heart valves to leak and my mitral valve to incur calcification. Every year my echo is the same whether one or off. Genetics play so much into this.

I believe if your going to do steroids and stress over it then spend the money and get an echo and stress test. Bloods only show so much - which is what others say and I agree with that.

Bottom line if your going to be paranoid while doing this stuff then this stuff just isnt for you.

Pump - I am sure its all going to be ok my man. Keep your head up and most of all quit worrying too much because you can drive yourself mad - I have been there before.

How was your left atrium? My LV has reduced in size but the LA is mildly enlarged (4.4cm) and I'm trying to get that back down. Not sure how common this is.

 

[Deleted member 106824]

Thanks MT. I had an enlarged aortic root and needed surgery to fix it (made a thread awhile back). It's the kind of thing that's also asymptomatic, which is why bloodwork isn't the only thing people need to check.

Out of curiosity what made you get that checked out if you were asymptomatic?

I have posted this in other threads before but want to say this.

I have had an ejection fraction of 50 to 55%. My heart is slightly enlarged in the LV. All the common stuff associated with AAS use and working out. I went on a cycle and had it done and had it done after cycle when I was off all of it and I mean off all of it. Same.

I do my cardio and all that. My cardiologist simply said its luck of the draw and nothing to worry about. He has had the same amount of healthy people kill over and the same amount of unhealthy.

Granted what we do is a risk, but I do not think its any worse than any other thing you can get sucked into.

Its all a matter of luck. I go every year due to my brittle bone disease the collagen in my body does not work properly therefore I am at a higher risk for heart valves to leak and my mitral valve to incur calcification. Every year my echo is the same whether one or off. Genetics play so much into this.

I believe if your going to do steroids and stress over it then spend the money and get an echo and stress test. Bloods only show so much - which is what others say and I agree with that.

Bottom line if your going to be paranoid while doing this stuff then this stuff just isnt for you.

Pump - I am sure its all going to be ok my man. Keep your head up and most of all quit worrying too much because you can drive yourself mad - I have been there before.

Hey JBlack, did you ever get your EF tested before ANY gear use though? Because unlike blood values which are bad on cycle, I don't think EF would improve that quickly just because you're off gear for a few weeks or even months. I imagine changes to the heart like that take place over a much longer time frame.

I agree with most of what you're saying. The reality is a lot of people take gear for many many years and appear fine, but at the same time I don't think one can legitimately argue there is no health risk to it. Now of course I could die in a car accident when I turn 30. Or I could need surgery for my Crohns at 40 and a complication could end my life for all I know and gear use or not would then be irrelevant. BUT I would like to put the odds in my favor and I have gotten more paranoid about the health aspects of gear use lately and as you said that alone almost makes it not worth it to me.

It is very hard for me mentally to think about being done with gear and therefore never hitting my ultimate end goals (though I think I still have room for some progress) but at the same time gear has almost made things less enjoyable for me lately...which I'll admit is purely due to my own mental habits...because instead of enjoying the process I just have the mindset of "I really dislike that I need to take gear, so I'm taking a hit to my health and just trying to get the results as fast as possible so I can finally come off"...so I'm so result-oriented in that case that it's hard for me to just relax and enjoy lifting for anything but hitting the end goal so I can come off gear. Hopefully I got that across in a way that makes sense lol kind of like "If I'm going to be using gear and damaging my health I better be getting stellar results for it to be worth it" so anything less than that stresses me out. Whereas if I was natural and had a long period of no results I'd think "well that's annoying, but at least this lifestyle is healthy".

 

[nothuman]

Out of curiosity what made you get that checked out if you were asymptomatic?



Hey JBlack, did you ever get your EF tested before ANY gear use though? Because unlike blood values which are bad on cycle, I don't think EF would improve that quickly just because you're off gear for a few weeks or even months. I imagine changes to the heart like that take place over a much longer time frame.

I agree with most of what you're saying. The reality is a lot of people take gear for many many years and appear fine, but at the same time I don't think one can legitimately argue there is no health risk to it. Now of course I could die in a car accident when I turn 30. Or I could need surgery for my Crohns at 40 and a complication could end my life for all I know and gear use or not would then be irrelevant. BUT I would like to put the odds in my favor and I have gotten more paranoid about the health aspects of gear use lately and as you said that alone almost makes it not worth it to me.

It is very hard for me mentally to think about being done with gear and therefore never hitting my ultimate end goals (though I think I still have room for some progress) but at the same time gear has almost made things less enjoyable for me lately...which I'll admit is purely due to my own mental habits...because instead of enjoying the process I just have the mindset of "I really dislike that I need to take gear, so I'm taking a hit to my health and just trying to get the results as fast as possible so I can finally come off"...so I'm so result-oriented in that case that it's hard for me to just relax and enjoy lifting for anything but hitting the end goal so I can come off gear. Hopefully I got that across in a way that makes sense lol kind of like "If I'm going to be using gear and damaging my health I better be getting stellar results for it to be worth it" so anything less than that stresses me out. Whereas if I was natural and had a long period of no results I'd think "well that's annoying, but at least this lifestyle is healthy".

Well, I had heart palpitations (which I think was caused by a poor night of sleep and 3 scoops of jack3d) and called 911 because I was afraid I was having a heart attack. They checked everything via an echo and told me I was ok for now but to monitor it and come back in 6-12 months. I wasn't ok with that, so I took it upon myself to get a CT scan by begging the cardiologist. She let me do it and was then told I needed open heart (she can take her 6-12 months and shove it). 4 days later, I am under the knife and they replace my aortic root. This was 3 months ago. I just turned 29 btw.

Today, I feel the best I ever have in my life. I am lighter, doing cardio every morning, eating perfectly, taking a myriad of health supps, veggies, etc. I can't lift weights again until February because my sternum is still healing (they told me January but I want to wait an extra month just in case). I am long fully recovered from that, but my sternum isn't 100% yet and it heals slowly. I tried BPC 157 to speed it up but it didn't seem to work for that purpose.

I went a little off topic but if you're as motivated as me to fix any little heart issue you might have, which it sounds like you are, then maybe we both get lucky and get a follow up test showing improvement in our echoes (I'm trying to reduce my left atrium size now). AAS isn't really on my radar right now, but I believe I'll be able to go on light blasts again if everything is perfect (I'm never touching hgh again), while maintaining my new found good habits.

 

[Deleted member 106824]

Well, I had heart palpitations (which I think was caused by a poor night of sleep and 3 scoops of jack3d) and called 911 because I was afraid I was having a heart attack. They checked everything via an echo and told me I was ok for now but to monitor it and come back in 6-12 months. I wasn't ok with that, so I took it upon myself to get a CT scan by begging the cardiologist. She let me do it and was then told I needed open heart (she can take her 6-12 months and shove it). 4 days later, I am under the knife and they replace my aortic root. This was 3 months ago. I just turned 29 btw.

Today, I feel the best I ever have in my life. I am lighter, doing cardio every morning, eating perfectly, taking a myriad of health supps, veggies, etc. I can't lift weights again until February because my sternum is still healing (they told me January but I want to wait an extra month just in case). I am long fully recovered from that, but my sternum isn't 100% yet and it heals slowly. I tried BPC 157 to speed it up but it didn't seem to work for that purpose.

I went a little off topic but if you're as motivated as me to fix any little heart issue you might have, which it sounds like you are, then maybe we both get lucky and get a follow up test showing improvement in our echoes (I'm trying to reduce my left atrium size now). AAS isn't really on my radar right now, but I believe I'll be able to go on light blasts again if everything is perfect (I'm never touching hgh again), while maintaining my new found good habits.

The reason I never considered using HGH was because of the studies showing significantly more heart hypertrophy with HGH+AAS than AAS alone.

Do you think the HGH caused your problems or was there something else that resulted in the issue?

Good for you for pushing the CT scan. I've had multiple doctors/nurses almost scold me for wanting "unnecessary tests" and it's those same tests that have been most useful for me. Going into the medical field myself it honestly bugs me when doctors/nurses get annoyed that we want these tests done to ensure our health is on point. Especially when most of them are significantly overweight.

 

[nothuman]

The reason I never considered using HGH was because of the studies showing significantly more heart hypertrophy with HGH+AAS than AAS alone.



Do you think the HGH caused your problems or was there something else that resulted in the issue?



Good for you for pushing the CT scan. I've had multiple doctors/nurses almost scold me for wanting "unnecessary tests" and it's those same tests that have been most useful for me. Going into the medical field myself it honestly bugs me when doctors/nurses get annoyed that we want these tests done to ensure our health is on point. Especially when most of them are significantly overweight.

That's a good study, but the problem with it is that the hgh users took higher doses of aas than the aas only group. Would have been better if doses were the same. Still, it's a pretty telling study. I don't know what cause what happened to me, but I am sure it was a combo of a lot of bad habits.

And yea that pisses me off too when they try to fight our willingness to get tests done. They have no idea how to treat bodybuilders. If there was a way to get these tests done without them, I wouldn't waste my time on doctors because I feel I know more than they do sometimes.

 

[Pekkerwood]

Pumped:

Some cardiologists will say that 50% is in the normal range, albeit "low normal". I was diagnosed at 15% and stayed there for about 120 days. No idea how long I was there before I was diagnosed. It was five years ago. You may have always been 50%. No guarantee that you started at 60% or any other number unless you have had a baseline test in the past.

You will not get an answer to your question. It is not answerable in the form posed with any degree of certainty. If you ask "Did my AAS use contribute"?, that would be a bit easier. It would be the most likely place to shine a light unless you have a raging cocaine or methamphetamine habit, or consistently consume larger than normal quantities of alcohol. Genetics are always a factor.

I urge you to consider that on the interweb and in discussions in general, most of us are biased towards answers that support our own behaviors. This being a professional muscle forum where several people supplement, you are likely to receive a lot more defenses of the use of AAS and HGH with no side effects. Believe me when I tell you, I did the same thing. Until I ended up in the emergency room with an ejection fraction that qualified me for the heart transplant list. My doctor told me twice later on in treatment, that "He did not think I would make it" and that " He did not hold out much hope for me".

You are far from that case. My ejection fraction slowly creeped up 25,35, 40, and even had a gust into 45. Unfortunately, as happens with heart failure, I am on my way back down. I was one of the lucky ones.

I would suggest daily monitoring of your blood pressure, low sodium diet, abstain or moderate alcohol, baby aspirin, Ubiquinol (I take 600 mg a day). The ubiquinol coincided with my increased EF after I had follow the doctors protocol to a "T" with no results. I started adding the Ubiquinol and my very next visit had increased function. I fully get that it could be a coincidence but it is my coincidence.

You may want to download the ResMed App on your phone that will try to help predict if you have apnea. That is what my little brother used that prompted him to get treatment. Apnea has a high correlation to decreased EF. Apnea, Apnea, Apnea. There I said it again. Its important. Apnea.

When my problem happened I was HGH, TREN, Sustanon. Now I am Blueberries, Broccoli, Kale. Actually I am on doctor prescribed HRT and keep my levels in the 1000 range.

You may want to search my older threads, and perhaps the threads with Maldorf.


PWood

 

[Jblack]

Out of curiosity what made you get that checked out if you were asymptomatic?



Hey JBlack, did you ever get your EF tested before ANY gear use though? Because unlike blood values which are bad on cycle, I don't think EF would improve that quickly just because you're off gear for a few weeks or even months. I imagine changes to the heart like that take place over a much longer time frame.

I agree with most of what you're saying. The reality is a lot of people take gear for many many years and appear fine, but at the same time I don't think one can legitimately argue there is no health risk to it. Now of course I could die in a car accident when I turn 30. Or I could need surgery for my Crohns at 40 and a complication could end my life for all I know and gear use or not would then be irrelevant. BUT I would like to put the odds in my favor and I have gotten more paranoid about the health aspects of gear use lately and as you said that alone almost makes it not worth it to me.

It is very hard for me mentally to think about being done with gear and therefore never hitting my ultimate end goals (though I think I still have room for some progress) but at the same time gear has almost made things less enjoyable for me lately...which I'll admit is purely due to my own mental habits...because instead of enjoying the process I just have the mindset of "I really dislike that I need to take gear, so I'm taking a hit to my health and just trying to get the results as fast as possible so I can finally come off"...so I'm so result-oriented in that case that it's hard for me to just relax and enjoy lifting for anything but hitting the end goal so I can come off gear. Hopefully I got that across in a way that makes sense lol kind of like "If I'm going to be using gear and damaging my health I better be getting stellar results for it to be worth it" so anything less than that stresses me out. Whereas if I was natural and had a long period of no results I'd think "well that's annoying, but at least this lifestyle is healthy".

I have been off for 6 months and had it done and been on for 6 months and had it done. Really depends how I do my cycles. But generally do 6 months on ramping up slowly then last 12 weeks push it. then I come off 6 months except like maybe 100 or 200 test prop a week. I never come off of gh because it helps me a lot with my joints which take a beating from my disease. But yes it was done from 16 on. EOY until I hit 30 now every year. I started gear at 18. Was and has always been 50-55. Same as my mom, my dad, and my grandparents. I presume that is why the doctor said not to worry and just be smart. I take all the precautions, but I also know that nothing is a fail safe so it truly is just a luck of the draw.

I get how you feel, but I believe if your smart about it and get your blood checked you can play this somewhat safely IF YOUR genetics allow for it.

 

[Jblack]

How was your left atrium? My LV has reduced in size but the LA is mildly enlarged (4.4cm) and I'm trying to get that back down. Not sure how common this is.

My heart was declared "normal" with the "exception of a slightly enlarged LV which is consistent with someone who works out. All of other markers are negative." thats what is in my chart. I guess I am fine otherwise for that. With my bone disease they compare me against the normal and against those with my disease. I always score normal against the normal and exceptional against those with my disease.

 

[nothuman]

My heart was declared "normal" with the "exception of a slightly enlarged LV which is consistent with someone who works out. All of other markers are negative." thats what is in my chart. I guess I am fine otherwise for that. With my bone disease they compare me against the normal and against those with my disease. I always score normal against the normal and exceptional against those with my disease.

I see. On mine, they gave numerical measurements in every area of heart.

 

[Mini Truck]

Pumped,

I understand, I really do. In many ways, I battle with this as well.

But take a sec and re-read your words. In them, lies a comforting thought.

It is very hard for me mentally to think about being done with gear and therefore never hitting my ultimate end goals (though I think I still have room for some progress) but at the same time gear has almost made things less enjoyable for me lately...which I'll admit is purely due to my own mental habits...because instead of enjoying the process I just have the mindset of "I really dislike that I need to take gear, so I'm taking a hit to my health and just trying to get the results as fast as possible so I can finally come off"...so I'm so result-oriented in that case that it's hard for me to just relax and enjoy lifting for anything but hitting the end goal so I can come off gear. Hopefully I got that across in a way that makes sense lol kind of like "If I'm going to be using gear and damaging my health I better be getting stellar results for it to be worth it" so anything less than that stresses me out. Whereas if I was natural and had a long period of no results I'd think "well that's annoying, but at least this lifestyle is healthy".

Pumped, the "image" of how we want our bodies to look, is probably not
obtainable. After 36 years of "being in the trenches", after all the trophies I've won, I have never once looked in the mirror and said "wow, I really like what I see".

That common denominator is something we all share.

Take this thought captive: Do The Best With What You've Got.

The one good thing that NH, Jblack, Peckerwood, You and me share is
that we will always be able to have a Nuclear Stress Test done every 2 years.

With that, we can always stay on top of the most important muscle we have!

-MT

 

[johnjuanb1]

A sure way to cause congestive heart failure reducing your ejection/fraction ration significantly is to stack AAS with stimulants, especially speed. This was explained by my friend's cardiologist. My friend died of congestive heart failure at age 47. The doctor said when you take speed your heart rate remains elevated for long periods of time so essentially it's like you are running a marathon. When on AAS the heart muscle develops like any muscle being trained, thus getting bigger, thickening the heart walls. This constant training from speed induced 24/7 marathon-like heart beat ends up making the heart walls so thick that they can't fully contract thereby limiting the amount of blood it can squeeze out with each contraction. The heart is meant to be pliable with walls capable of fully contracting and squeezing out all blood in the heart. A muscle too thick to fully squeeze out the blood is unable to pump enough blood throughout the body, limiting oxygen dispersion which causes fatigue and fluid retention/pneumonia.
My friend who died stacked AAS with speed for 25 years. He played football at The University of Iowa where the team doctor made all players take a mix of test, deca, eq, L-dopa, and speed. He said the doctor gave everyone their shots. You took the shots or you didn't play.

Yes, AAS will enlarge the heart. Coupled with stimulants long term, you are definitely cutting your life short, and most certainly will have a gradual reduction in your heart ejection/fraction ratio, leading to greater and greater fatigue with a need to sleep a lot. Less oxygenated blood dispersed throughout the body equals less energy.

 

[nothuman]

A sure way to cause congestive heart failure reducing your ejection/fraction ration significantly is to stack AAS with stimulants, especially speed. This was explained by my friend's cardiologist. My friend died of congestive heart failure at age 47. The doctor said when you take speed your heart rate remains elevated for long periods of time so essentially it's like you are running a marathon. When on AAS the heart muscle develops like any muscle being trained, thus getting bigger, thickening the heart walls. This constant training from speed induced 24/7 marathon-like heart beat ends up making the heart walls so thick that they can't fully contract thereby limiting the amount of blood it can squeeze out with each contraction. The heart is meant to be pliable with walls capable of fully contracting and squeezing out all blood in the heart. A muscle too thick to fully squeeze out the blood is unable to pump enough blood throughout the body, limiting oxygen dispersion which causes fatigue and fluid retention/pneumonia.

My friend who died stacked AAS with speed for 25 years. He played football at The University of Iowa where the team doctor made all players take a mix of test, deca, eq, L-dopa, and speed. He said the doctor gave everyone their shots. You took the shots or you didn't play.



Yes, AAS will enlarge the heart. Coupled with stimulants long term, you are definitely cutting your life short, and most certainly will have a gradual reduction in your heart ejection/fraction ratio, leading to greater and greater fatigue with a need to sleep a lot. Less oxygenated blood dispersed throughout the body equals less energy.

Kind of crazy to think pre workout and fat burner supplements you can buy OTC can be so damaging when combined with other stuff. I never thought I was doing anything wrong taking all those pre workouts over the years. Now, I will surely never touch them again. It doesn't even have to be speed.

 

[TT]

You hit it right on the nail. Some people think that if a supp is OTC then it's not harmless. I can feel changes in my body even with food manipulation, let alone supps. The best thing there is for my body is good nutrition and staying natty. As you know I had my echo done last year and EF was 56%. I had it done recently and it was 62%.

 

[johnjuanb1]

You hit it right on the nail. Some people think that if a supp is OTC then it's not harmless. I can feel changes in my body even with food manipulation, let alone supps. The best thing there is for my body is good nutrition and staying natty. As you know I had my echo done last year and EF was 56%. I had it done recently and it was 62%.

That's awesome that it's improving!!!
Try adding ribose to your supplement list. In studies it has been shown to increase heart ejection:fraction ratio by up to 20% in congestive heart failure patients. Results are dose dependent. 5 grams is the minimum daily amount needed for benefits. 20 grams is given to severe CHF patients. It's best to spread dosing throughout the day in 5 gram increments.

 

[nothuman]

You hit it right on the nail. Some people think that if a supp is OTC then it's not harmless. I can feel changes in my body even with food manipulation, let alone supps. The best thing there is for my body is good nutrition and staying natty. As you know I had my echo done last year and EF was 56%. I had it done recently and it was 62%.

Awesome. Mine was 65%, then went down to 60% 2.5 years later due to being a dumbass and blasting almost year round. Still normal range but I want to get it back up for good measure. What I'm interested in knowing is how quickly it can come back up. 6% in a year for you sounds decent.

 

[nothuman]

That's awesome that it's improving!!!
Try adding ribose to your supplement list. In studies it has been shown to increase heart ejection:fraction ratio by up to 20% in congestive heart failure patients. Results are dose dependent. 5 grams is the minimum daily amount needed for benefits. 20 grams is given to severe CHF patients. It's best to spread dosing throughout the day in 5 gram increments.

Wow you aren't kidding. I just researched this after reading your post. One guy said it went from 20% to 50%

Pumped, might be worth looking into

 

[Stewie]

Hello NH.

His EF increased 10.7%....... 62-56=6-------> divided 6 by the original 56%= 0.10714286 multiply by 100(%) = 10.714286 or 10.7%

Sorry I couldn't resist

For those that want to interact with physicians and those whom have suffered heart related problems, I'd really encourage you to join trackyourplaque.com There's a tremendous wealth of knowledge shared at that site. It's owned and run by Dr. Davis, whom is a cardiologist, as well, he's the author of the wheat belly.

Awesome. Mine was 65%, then went down to 60% 2.5 years later due to being a dumbass and blasting almost year round. Still normal range but I want to get it back up for good measure. What I'm interested in knowing is how quickly it can come back up. 6% in a year for you sounds decent.

 

[Deleted member 106824]

Thank you everyone for all of the helpful responses. Much more than I anticipated. MT I really like that quote. I went to see my cardiologist yesterday because my chest pain was starting to become more constant. I got my Cardiac MRI moved up to 11/19 so I'll know a week earlier and will post up the results.

You hit it right on the nail. Some people think that if a supp is OTC then it's not harmless. I can feel changes in my body even with food manipulation, let alone supps. The best thing there is for my body is good nutrition and staying natty. As you know I had my echo done last year and EF was 56%. I had it done recently and it was 62%.

That's great to know have you done anything specific for it besides a healthy diet and coming off gear?



I will have to look into the ubiquinol/coq10 + pycogenol Pycnogenol, CoQ10 Combo Helps Heart Failure Patients - EmaxHealth not sure who funded that study though.

Awesome. Mine was 65%, then went down to 60% 2.5 years later due to being a dumbass and blasting almost year round. Still normal range but I want to get it back up for good measure. What I'm interested in knowing is how quickly it can come back up. 6% in a year for you sounds decent.

Would you mind detailing a little more how yours dropped from 65% to low normal? I know you said blasting but were any other things involved, and what type and doses of AAS did you use?

I was under the impression that cardiac cells couldn't really regenerate for the most part so I'd be interested to know how EF goes back up if lowering it was caused by damage to the cells.

I also didn't think AAS could do that much damage that quickly. 2.5 years is about how long I've been on as well and only a little over half of that was actually on cycle.


I will wait to hear what my results are, and what the cardiologist recommends but so far in addition to coming off gear it looks like we've got
-Cardio
-Ribose
-Ubiquinol (maybe with pycnogenol combo)

And checking about the sleep apnea thing.