Did AAS Lower my Ejection Fraction, and is it Permanent?

[Necrias]

A sure way to cause congestive heart failure reducing your ejection/fraction ration significantly is to stack AAS with stimulants, especially speed. This was explained by my friend's cardiologist. My friend died of congestive heart failure at age 47. The doctor said when you take speed your heart rate remains elevated for long periods of time so essentially it's like you are running a marathon. When on AAS the heart muscle develops like any muscle being trained, thus getting bigger, thickening the heart walls. This constant training from speed induced 24/7 marathon-like heart beat ends up making the heart walls so thick that they can't fully contract thereby limiting the amount of blood it can squeeze out with each contraction. The heart is meant to be pliable with walls capable of fully contracting and squeezing out all blood in the heart. A muscle too thick to fully squeeze out the blood is unable to pump enough blood throughout the body, limiting oxygen dispersion which causes fatigue and fluid retention/pneumonia.
My friend who died stacked AAS with speed for 25 years. He played football at The University of Iowa where the team doctor made all players take a mix of test, deca, eq, L-dopa, and speed. He said the doctor gave everyone their shots. You took the shots or you didn't play.

Yes, AAS will enlarge the heart. Coupled with stimulants long term, you are definitely cutting your life short, and most certainly will have a gradual reduction in your heart ejection/fraction ratio, leading to greater and greater fatigue with a need to sleep a lot. Less oxygenated blood dispersed throughout the body equals less energy.

I wonder whether dextroamphetamines are the same? I am prescribed 20mg Adderal and certainly believe it is what caused my adrenal fatigue post show, I wonder if it has other deleterious effects as well...

 

[Deleted member 106824]

I wonder whether dextroamphetamines are the same? I am prescribed 20mg Adderal and certainly believe it is what caused my adrenal fatigue post show, I wonder if it has other deleterious effects as well...

I know some people need adderal but it is certainly an abused drug and one I stay away from even when my workload is insane. Always side effects even if minimal for some people.


My cardiac MRI is tomorrow afternoon, I'll update this thread with the results.

Chest pain has mostly abated but every once in awhile it gets pretty significant for a day or so. Also random light 'buzzing' feeling at my heart recently, like I've actually thought my phone was vibrating in my coat pocket a couple times :\

 

[nothuman]

Any update pumped?

 

[Deleted member 106824]

Any update pumped?

I was introduced to a few doctors before the MRI and I asked one if, in his experience, people could significantly improve ejection fraction. His response was yes but also it depends on the reason i.e. if it's due to scarring then maybe not. He also said that he's had athletes come in with EFs around 40% and that sometimes fit people just don't need their hearts to pump out as much to get the job done (I guess similar to athletes having a low heart rate? But who knows if those athletes also took steroids lol).

I'm not sure if that applies to my situation. In any case the doctor was not there after the MRI but told the nurse to tell me things looked "good" which I think really just means there wasn't anything blatantly worrisome about it. Which is nice of course but doesn't really tell me much.

I'll call my cardiologist within the next day or two and get the full results from her.

 

[nothuman]

Sucks you couldn't get results right away. Keep us posted

 

[TT]

Do you think you have scarring of the heart? I know its done by heart attacks, but I wonder if there are other ways that cause scarring.

 

[Deleted member 106824]

Do you think you have scarring of the heart? I know its done by heart attacks, but I wonder if there are other ways that cause scarring.

My doctor called me today. She doesn't seem overly confident in what she's saying lol said she had to go online to even look up normal reference values.

Luckily she said
-No hypertrophy
-No scarring

But as for the rest
-Ejection fraction is 50.7%
-Mild dilation of both ventricles. Left EDV was 121ml/mm2 and apparently reference range is 62-119 for a male. She didn't have the value for right side.

I told her I had previously used "prohormones", didn't want to say steroids for legal reasons, but when she said "do you mean things like creatine?" I basically had to get off the phone -_-

She asked a colleague and they want me to do another test, I couldn't hear her though. C-pack? Or something like that. Basically a cardiopulmonary exercise test to test VO2 max and other factors.

I've done a vo2 max test in the past, I'm almost positive that will be fine. Not sure what else it tests for though. It seems she doesn't really know what to tell me.


By the way my cycle ended earlier this week so now it's just going to be TRT at 125mg/week. Maybe that will help things improve as well.



Thoughts/opinions?

 

[nothuman]

My doctor called me today. She doesn't seem overly confident in what she's saying lol said she had to go online to even look up normal reference values.

Luckily she said
-No hypertrophy
-No scarring

But as for the rest
-Ejection fraction is 50.7%
-Mild dilation of both ventricles. Left EDV was 121ml/mm2 and apparently reference range is 62-119 for a male. She didn't have the value for right side.

I told her I had previously used "prohormones", didn't want to say steroids for legal reasons, but when she said "do you mean things like creatine?" I basically had to get off the phone -_-

She asked a colleague and they want me to do another test, I couldn't hear her though. C-pack? Or something like that. Basically a cardiopulmonary exercise test to test VO2 max and other factors.

I've done a vo2 max test in the past, I'm almost positive that will be fine. Not sure what else it tests for though. It seems she doesn't really know what to tell me.


By the way my cycle ended earlier this week so now it's just going to be TRT at 125mg/week. Maybe that will help things improve as well.



Thoughts/opinions?

She obviously doesn't know any more than we do. Hopefully, Medic08 comes back and chimes in.

I think the fact you're off your cycle will help. I wouldn't have expected any improvement before coming off. Take a lot of curcumin and Ubiquinol

 

[Deleted member 106824]

She obviously doesn't know any more than we do. Hopefully, Medic08 comes back and chimes in.

I think the fact you're off your cycle will help. I wouldn't have expected any improvement before coming off. Take a lot of curcumin and Ubiquinol

Yea it was a little surprising, it felt like it was a secretary reading results to me, she didn't have many answers.

I'm not sure why Medic08 never chimed in, I PM'd him but maybe he didn't see it. Hopefully he does. (If anyone else wants to PM him feel free )

I'm currently taking 1.5g of curcumin per day. From what I understand, being 23 years old I should have equal results from coq10 and ubiquinol? I have read that ubiquinol is more important in older individuals because they can't convert the coq10 as well. I haven't taken coq10 in awhile since I originally took it to lower blood pressure and didn't notice that benefit, but I can start buying it again for the heart health.

 

[nothuman]

Yea it was a little surprising, it felt like it was a secretary reading results to me, she didn't have many answers.

I'm not sure why Medic08 never chimed in, I PM'd him but maybe he didn't see it. Hopefully he does. (If anyone else wants to PM him feel free )

I'm currently taking 1.5g of curcumin per day. From what I understand, being 23 years old I should have equal results from coq10 and ubiquinol? I have read that ubiquinol is more important in older individuals because they can't convert the coq10 as well. I haven't taken coq10 in awhile since I originally took it to lower blood pressure and didn't notice that benefit, but I can start buying it again for the heart health.

I take Ubiquinol ovr CoQ10 because it can't be any worse than CoQ10. Even if it costs more, I gt more peace of mind taking it. Personally just started injectable curcumin so I'm taking a moderate amount of that, while taking one pill of it a day in addition.

I also PMed Medic about a different issue and didn't get a reply. He hasn't posted in a while. Hopefully he comes back.

 

[Deleted member 106824]

I take Ubiquinol ovr CoQ10 because it can't be any worse than CoQ10. Even if it costs more, I gt more peace of mind taking it. Personally just started injectable curcumin so I'm taking a moderate amount of that, while taking one pill of it a day in addition.

I also PMed Medic about a different issue and didn't get a reply. He hasn't posted in a while. Hopefully he comes back.

True, I'll look more into the ubiquinol. I must be paying 2-3x as much in health supplements now than i ever did in gear lol.

I assume all the guys here talking about injectable curcumin and resveratrol are doing so by their own means somehow and not using some type of actual medicine/prescribed drug? I imagine injectable is considerably more effective but not sure I want to go making my own concoctions.

 

[nothuman]

True, I'll look more into the ubiquinol. I must be paying 2-3x as much in health supplements now than i ever did in gear lol.



I assume all the guys here talking about injectable curcumin and resveratrol are doing so by their own means somehow and not using some type of actual medicine/prescribed drug? I imagine injectable is considerably more effective but not sure I want to go making my own concoctions.

VR Supplies on here sells the health injectables

 

[TT]

HAHAHA. I remember last year I went to Endo upon my arrival to US and I also mentioned "prohormones" and she didn't know what it was.

I walked out of her office.

 

[Deleted member 106824]

HAHAHA. I remember last year I went to Endo upon my arrival to US and I also mentioned "prohormones" and she didn't know what it was.

I walked out of her office.

It's pretty pathetic. Being in dental school we have the same curriculum as medical school until our last year when we're in clinic or residency....you should be able to remember the basics of endocrinology and what prohormones are and how they compare to basic supplements, especially as a cardiologist.

Very confident in saying that the average guy who puts in a reasonable amount of time to researching these things will know more than most doctors. I know I did before I even started undergrad. My major (health & exercise science) obviously helped but even before then I could have told you the difference between creatine and prohormones and how they work.

Would be nice if I could go to a cardiologist who specializes in athletes but given where I am right now I kind of have to take what I can get. I'm essentially using them to get the tests I need at this point. So far the most knowledgeable person I've talked to on the subject has been Medic08 on here.


They called me today to schedule that test but due to my schedule I couldn't get it until January 7th. While that is a bit late I figure it may be for the best as they've already given me the MRI results and this will give me about 7 weeks off gear to maybe improve things (though I believe this test will be testing for completely different markers. They didn't give me enough information).

 

[Deleted member 106824]

I was wondering if this could be related Can Ulcerative Colitis Harm Your Heart? - Ulcerative Colitis Center - Everyday Health

My worst flare to date started about a month ago, so maybe.

 

[Deleted member 106824]

Just did my C-PET. Starting BP was 112/84, heart rate 50-60. Max it got up to during the test was ~180/76 and 190bpm.

It's supposed to test VO2 max and they said most people stop after 8-12 minute. I got to 30min and they decided to stop the test because they "had all the info they needed" and I guess the program doesn't go beyond 30min. I was somewhat relieved to stop lol but would have been curious what my actual max was.

So far all I know are the values above and that my EKG looked good and nothing seemed to be a problem. I'll presumably get a more detailed call from my cardiologist in the next few days.

Chest pain has been minimal to non-existent lately but does pop up here and there...it's so minor though and I notice no issue when exercising.

Not sure what the next step to take at this point would be. My last echo and MRI were done on cycle, I wonder if current results would be any different....though I doubt something like ejection fraction would change in just 10-12 weeks of being off.

 

[john161]

Look into carnitine, or n-acetyl carnitine for reversing a weakened heart . . .

 

[ThinkTank]

Just did my C-PET. Starting BP was 112/84, heart rate 50-60. Max it got up to during the test was ~180/76 and 190bpm.

It's supposed to test VO2 max and they said most people stop after 8-12 minute. I got to 30min and they decided to stop the test because they "had all the info they needed" and I guess the program doesn't go beyond 30min. I was somewhat relieved to stop lol but would have been curious what my actual max was.

So far all I know are the values above and that my EKG looked good and nothing seemed to be a problem. I'll presumably get a more detailed call from my cardiologist in the next few days.

Chest pain has been minimal to non-existent lately but does pop up here and there...it's so minor though and I notice no issue when exercising.

Not sure what the next step to take at this point would be. My last echo and MRI were done on cycle, I wonder if current results would be any different....though I doubt something like ejection fraction would change in just 10-12 weeks of being off.

Where is the chest pain? I have complained to my GP about chest pain over my left pec. The doctor has done an EKG and said my pain is probably a muscle spasm.

Unfortunately, years ago I had a bit of a booger sugar problem and therefore I always wonder what damage I may have done to my heart. In recent years I have high blood pressure and need to take a BB.

I am over 40 and it is time reach out to a specialized heart doctor. Especially since I am planning to hit the juice hard with the intention of coming off for good in 2016.

 

[Deleted member 106824]

Look into carnitine, or n-acetyl carnitine for reversing a weakened heart . . .

I'll check it out, thanks.

Where is the chest pain? I have complained to my GP about chest pain over my left pec. The doctor has done an EKG and said my pain is probably a muscle spasm.

Unfortunately, years ago I had a bit of a booger sugar problem and therefore I always wonder what damage I may have done to my heart. In recent years I have high blood pressure and need to take a BB.

I am over 40 and it is time reach out to a specialized heart doctor. Especially since I am planning to hit the juice hard with the intention of coming off for good in 2016.

It's generally central to left. Never done any recreational drugs besides weed a few times many years ago. I'm also only 23 making it, and the reduced ejection fraction, even more surprising.

 

[Deleted member 106824]

Not sure if anyone is still reading this but to update my cardiologist called and said she talked to the head cardiologist there. That cardiologist said that overall she thought the dilation was 'unremarkable' and given everything else (the successful C-PEXT, and I guess lack of scarring or enlargement) that she wasn't too concerned.

I really wish I had a starting EF baseline from before I ever touched gear, for all I know it was already low normal, though I doubt it.

In any case, I've begun taking 3g Acetyl L-Carnitine, 1130mg hawthorn berry, 2g taurine and 200mg CoQ10 (already been taking this) per day. I'm hoping this helps but I'm not too sure how much it will. Might want to get pycnogenol and ribose as well but most of the studies I've seen have been on people with very impaired function like 10-30% EF.

She said we can do another echo in September but I'd really prefer to do an MRI because an Echo is much more of an estimate for EF and only gives a 5% range so even if there is some improvement it might not be picked up. She said an MRI isn't indicated though and may not be covered by insurance again.

Lastly, I still get the pressure here and there. Sometimes it is on the right side which almost makes me happy because it makes me think it's not related to my hear then but it's still more often on the left side. No shortness of breath. My BP and HR are always low too but sometimes I wonder if the low HR is really a good thing or not. For example I am dieting now and haven't had much caffeine but today decided to throw in ~400mg to help out. I ended up feeling some chest pressure, more located on the left side. I checked my HR though and it was only 43bpm! Very low almost to the point of making me concerned there is a lack of function or something...I don't really do that much cardio (most days recently but not since 5 days ago), I workout 3 days per week and bf% is still 14-15% so all things considered that is quite low. Just want things to be "normal". But at this point the doctors don't have any real recommendation for me. They don't even really have a definitive diagnosis.