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Doctors, Muscle atrophy, Nerve Damage, Russian stim, etc.

Stewie Griffon

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I couldn't figure what to make the thread titled, lots of stuff here i will try to condense.

For several years i have had a problem with my right pec major, simply its atrophying. my max bench went from 455 to 275 and no matter what i do i cant seem to train it properly. there is a noticeable 'groove; in the upper part. looked and acted like a sternal tear

anyways after seeing tons of 'doctors' i finally have learned what it is. the guy that figured it was a plastic surgeon of all things. this guy was sharp!!!! the MRI clearly showed it was atrophied but fully attached. he said it was clearly some type of damage or impingement to my medial pectoral nerve - that was the nerve that serviced the area of atrophy

off to the neurologist, who of course could barely communicate in english. now english isn't the only language, but if you work in an english speaking country - LEARN IT

he claimed, after looking at me for 2 minutes, that i have parsonage turner
syndrome. he didn't even examine me, just inferred that from 2 minutes of speech (also he never saw my MRI). maybe this guy is a genius and he might be right, maybe not. he said that only one place in the country does a surgery that might help - the mayo clinic in minnesota. i guess they take another nerve and move it so that the area is reinnervated.

my natural response to this it: well that great, if they restore nerve signal to the affected area, the muscles will be stimulated and it will begin to recover.

he replied: no. i asked for an explanation and he said the muscle was probably dead (contrary to what 3 other doctors and a surgeon told me). mind you he still says he wants to perform an emg and send me to the mayo clinic

FOR WHAT??? i tried to explain to this guy that if, LIKE HE SAYS, the muscle is dead, and reinnervating will do nothing, then WHY have the procedure - or why does the procedure even exist??

his reply - to reinnervate it!!! LOL this alleged specialist sounds like he is caught in a redundant loop. he assures me the muscle is dead, yet wants to move a nerve to it - to feed a 'dead' muscle signal. this is solely a motor nerve, not sensory and it doesn't affect anything else in my body


now to the main point. russian stimulators
i am not sure how exactly they work, other than stimulating the muscle through electrical impulses.

my question is, do they stimulate it through existing nerves, or by direct action on the muscle fibers themselves bypassing the nerves

if the answer is through the nerve, this wont help me as my nerve is damaged
if the answer is directly on the muscle the russian stim will help, at least make it look a little better. of course i understand the natural function will still be impaired

i looked for some stims online, there are TONS of options. maybe you guys might have some good info for me, thanks
 

Kapeta

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http://bit.ly/ems_digest

HUGE book/article about it all.

Globus and Compex are great units. Used them both, but Globus wins in my opinion. Great option when joints are beat up, or a great concurrent training mode.
 

Newman

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http://bit.ly/ems_digest

HUGE book/article about it all.

Globus and Compex are great units. Used them both, but Globus wins in my opinion. Great option when joints are beat up, or a great concurrent training mode.
There were a lot of links on that page, so I don't know if this issue was covered there or not, but I'll ask anyway:

Stewie, do you plan on simply electro stimming the affected pec area passively, or do you plan on somehow incorporating the therapy into your chest workout?

I'm not sure whether it's even possible to use the stimming concurrently while firing all the rest of the pec while actually moving a weight? Developing a control switch that can increase or decrease the stim as needed might be tough, but it would probably be more effective at building strength than simply zapping the dormant portion of your pec while the remainder is at rest.
 

Stewie Griffon

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There were a lot of links on that page, so I don't know if this issue was covered there or not, but I'll ask anyway:

Stewie, do you plan on simply electro stimming the affected pec area passively, or do you plan on somehow incorporating the therapy into your chest workout?

I'm not sure whether it's even possible to use the stimming concurrently while firing all the rest of the pec while actually moving a weight? Developing a control switch that can increase or decrease the stim as needed might be tough, but it would probably be more effective at building strength than simply zapping the dormant portion of your pec while the remainder is at rest.
i agree, using it during a workout is beyond the scope of my capability. i dont even know if its possible

i just want to stimulate the crap out of the affected area to make it appear more symmetrical.
 

massmonster32

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Sorry if I missed it but what happened how did you injure your pec? Thanks interesting read.MM
 

Newman

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i agree, using it during a workout is beyond the scope of my capability. i dont even know if its possible

i just want to stimulate the crap out of the affected area to make it appear more symmetrical.
Fair enough.

By the way, I think your doc is tarded. I mean, you hit it right on the head. How can the doc recomend you innervate dead muscle tissue? And, why would a lack of motor nerve stim cause cellular death? AFAIK, cell death is either caused by a lack of nutrient input and/or metabolic waste removal, a toxic attack like a spider bite etc, or by reaching the tissues normal programmed life span...

I bet if you get the innervation done, then your pec will recover at least 80%.
 

Stewie Griffon

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Sorry if I missed it but what happened how did you injure your pec? Thanks interesting read.MM
actually i have no idea whatsoever - none

my bench just started getting weaker and over time i noticed a 'groove' in my right pec in the upper part on the sternal (inner) side

the doctor who alleged i have parsonage turner syndrome said that it 'just happens' with no apparent trauma or event causing it. that's the same doctor who didn't examine me, he diagnosed me based on a 5 minute conversation

basically i have some nerve damage/impingement that causes me to be unable to contract part of my pec. i was hoping a good russian stim machine might help stimualte and make it grow. i know this wont improve my strength/function, but it wont look so messed up - i hope
 

gassy

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Hey Stewie, my sympathies, I have parssonage turner syndrome and it sucks. I'm not sure but, I thought it came on suddenly and there was a period lasting a few months of extreme pain, did you have this? I was in the worst pain of my life for four months starting the day after I had my wisdom teeth removed one year ago, my jawbone ended up being infected and still is. Your dr is right, sometimes it "just happens" but it is usually caused by infections and vaccinations. Its all 3 deltoids and rotator cuff on me. When it first happened I couldn't lift my arm at all(from an over 400lb bench press), a year later I can lift a 40lb db over my head although my shoulder is boney as the deltoid is still atrophied like crazy. I was first dignosed just like you were(later confirmed by 2 emg's) but, mine was a more typical onset, yours seems more gradual and no pain so I'm not sure you have parssonage turner. The only time I've heard of the nerve replacment surgeries are for torn brachial plexus injuries and babies that damage nerves coming out with their arms above their heads and they are really disabled. The only things that have helped me are time, humanofort, and a stim machine called the "rebuilder". Get an EMG asap and ask me anything you want on here or pm. Goodluck.
 

Stewie Griffon

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Hey Stewie, my sympathies, I have parssonage turner syndrome and it sucks. I'm not sure but, I thought it came on suddenly and there was a period lasting a few months of extreme pain, did you have this? I was in the worst pain of my life for four months starting the day after I had my wisdom teeth removed one year ago, my jawbone ended up being infected and still is. Your dr is right, sometimes it "just happens" but it is usually caused by infections and vaccinations. Its all 3 deltoids and rotator cuff on me. When it first happened I couldn't lift my arm at all(from an over 400lb bench press), a year later I can lift a 40lb db over my head although my shoulder is boney as the deltoid is still atrophied like crazy. I was first dignosed just like you were(later confirmed by 2 emg's) but, mine was a more typical onset, yours seems more gradual and no pain so I'm not sure you have parssonage turner. The only time I've heard of the nerve replacment surgeries are for torn brachial plexus injuries and babies that damage nerves coming out with their arms above their heads and they are really disabled. The only things that have helped me are time, humanofort, and a stim machine called the "rebuilder". Get an EMG asap and ask me anything you want on here or pm. Goodluck.
no, i had no pain whatsoever. it looks like you have it bad it bro, i feel for you. i am still waiting for this doc to schedule and EMG, i don't think he evens care really judging from his attitude. i'll have to find another doc.

how strong is this rebuilder you are talking about? is it just for pain or for growth?
 

brutale

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Hi Stewie. I've read your posting here as well as your follow-up on crawling.

I sympathize - you must be frustrated out of your mind. (I have inflammatory arthritis in my left shoulder and it drives me nuts.)

The muscle stimulator seems like a reasonable approach. But you really need better medical info. It may make sense to get evaluated by Mayo or a similarly sophisticated place. Then you can find out how severe the muscle damage is, what possibilities exist for restoring the nerve and muscle, and how best to train it.

You have probably "had it" with the doctors, but you ought to be able to get more definitive answers at Mayo. This is probably not a do-it-yourself kind of situation. Good luck ...
 

Stewie Griffon

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Hi Stewie. I've read your posting here as well as your follow-up on crawling.

I sympathize - you must be frustrated out of your mind. (I have inflammatory arthritis in my left shoulder and it drives me nuts.)

The muscle stimulator seems like a reasonable approach. But you really need better medical info. It may make sense to get evaluated by Mayo or a similarly sophisticated place. Then you can find out how severe the muscle damage is, what possibilities exist for restoring the nerve and muscle, and how best to train it.

You have probably "had it" with the doctors, but you ought to be able to get more definitive answers at Mayo. This is probably not a do-it-yourself kind of situation. Good luck ...
thanks for the advice bro. you are right i have 'had it'. i do plan on following through, the last doctor i went to, the neurologist said he was going to schedule and EMG and if necessary refer me to the mayo clinic. i have called his office twice and they never respond.
 

brutale

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thanks for the advice bro. you are right i have 'had it'. i do plan on following through, the last doctor i went to, the neurologist said he was going to schedule and EMG and if necessary refer me to the mayo clinic. i have called his office twice and they never respond.
Be persistent. Some of these medical offices have terrible office assistants (where do they find these idiots?). You gotta cajole, etc., and not lose your temper because you need their cooperation to reach the dr.

I looked into this a little, and the Mayo Clinic is not the only place to go. Most major university hospitals should be able to help. E.g.
Parsonage-Turner Syndrome - Center for Nerve Injury and Paralysis

You can call these places direct.
 

Stewie Griffon

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Be persistent. Some of these medical offices have terrible office assistants (where do they find these idiots?). You gotta cajole, etc., and not lose your temper because you need their cooperation to reach the dr.

I looked into this a little, and the Mayo Clinic is not the only place to go. Most major university hospitals should be able to help. E.g.
Parsonage-Turner Syndrome - Center for Nerve Injury and Paralysis

You can call these places direct.
thanks for the link bro. to be honest i am not sure that diagnosis is correct. i have talked to several people who have actually had this and they have MUCH worse effects than i do. member gassy above stated he went from a 400lb pound bench to lifting a 40lb dumbell over his head a year later!! another person i talked to went from a high 300's bench to barley pressing the bar. mine hasnt been as bad as others i talked to. i went from a 455lb bench (on a good day) to about 275. i must have some innervation still
 

gassy

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The rebuilder is a small stim or tens unit that helps with nerve pain and rebuilding the nerve pathways. It looks the same and the electric shock feels the same but, PT's and others insist it's different. It's expensive but, every little bit of improvement is important. There are only about 3,000 new cases a year in America and for the lucky ones it only lasts a few weeks or a month. In the early weeks and months my neurologist put me on several short runs of depomedrol steroid in case the problem was inflammation. Again, probably too late for you to try that but, may be worth a try.
 

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