Dr. Scott Stevenson On Are All Steroids Equally Anabolic

[aHarness]

Interesting how he mentioned that anadrol is less toxic that most think, since that has been a big topic of discussion here.

 

[Type-IIx]

Thanks for sharing, @danieltx!

I enthusiastically read and/or watch all Dr. Stevenson's media. While I haven't had the time to actually sit down to attentively watch this and take notes like I always do for his work... is that, um, er, Boris, et al (1970) - based not only on the totally inapplicable Hershberger Assay method (to learn why read [link]) - but taken one step perilously over the edge, by applying a human equivalency (HED) formula?

This is totally untenable! The reasons are, firstly, that the Hershberger Assay - (since the levator ani [purported to reflect "anabolic effects"] in rat is the dorsal bulbocaverous, a sex organ, and therefore androgenically responsive) - is not intended to be used in this manner. The assay is intended for screening large sets of potentially attenuated (anabolic, with minimal androgenicity) to narrow down the set to a few that might be worth human trials. Even at this, the HA is very poor, as we can clearly see from recent SARMs trials. All the SARMs are substantially androgenic (suppress LH, FSH, T, SHBG) despite their claimed near-total dissociation between anabolic and androgenic effects.

And secondly, that the human equivalency formulae are, much the same, not intended to be used in this manner. HED is intended to give a first approximation of reasonable doses to be trialled in humans, e.g., a HED yielding 100 mg human dose might be trialled at a phase I clinical trial in graded doses from 50 to 200 mg (4 treatment groups), at a minimum, and only if there were substantial supporting data about non-toxicity & reasonable guidance from case studies and the like regarding basic safety.

---

Basically, what the human data shows is for similar compounds like testosterone & nandrolone (both aromatizable to E2, both reasonably close in AR transactivation potency), the differences in effect sizes with respect to muscle size gains are too small to detect in moderately powered studies (limited, e.g., by sample size & duration, body composition measurements that are highly imperfect).

But it's a bit silly to say that an AAS like mesterolone (Proviron) is equivalent per-mg to methasterone (Superdrol) in per-mg anabolic potency. Especially if, say, one were to compare their use cyclically at reasonable doses over the course of years in a homogenous manner.

 

[Type-IIx]

OK, I'm 5 minutes in, and this is already the best video I've seen about any AAS topic ever. Thank you for doing this, @homonunculus

 

[Drax]

Love winny

Never did prep without

The look it gives to me is unique

Tbh im gone order some for summer now

Fuck it, me too

 

[Gunsmith]

When I meet a new bodybuilding friend (and that’s few and far between) I usually can gage their level of intelligence and just knowledge of the BBing scene by bringing up the internet OGs. If I mention Dante, DC training, John Meadows, Shelby, Justin Harris, Dr Scott, Skip, etc…and they have nooo idea who I’m talking about…. I get a pretty quick picture.

"But Sam Sulik is a beast bro LOL"
I completely agree with you

 

[275bills]

"But Sam Sulik is a beast bro LOL"
I completely agree with you

I bet Sam knows who all those guys are though

 

[homonunculus]

Hey Everyone!

Wow - thank for ALL the kind words and the tags! LOL This was a fun project to dig into.

As I mention at the start of the video, I'm certainly no expert on AAS, but thought I could at least contribute here by pointing out the few basic things I do feel like I have a the beginnings of a grasp on, to at least provide an entry point for further discussion on this topic.

I always seem to realize when I start in a mini-project how much I really DON'T know and how my I need to restrict my urge to make tangential comments that are relevant but can easily distract from the larger message. For instance, each of the studies I brush over here have limitations and nuances I just didn't have time to dig deeply into and not lose the listener. Each of the topics on the slide with the various factors that vary pharmacologically or on a genetic basis are worthy of much more time. (A whole talk could be easily done on the Hershberger assay - thanks to @Type-IIx for the link to Peter Bond's article! - covering the history and pitfalls, and I had to cringe a bit representing that Boris et al. study as I did, but didn't want to throw the baby completely out with the bathwater, especially since I'd been asked repeatedly about this study, so I figured it was worthwhile to examine it on it's pseudo-face value in the context of the the bigger question I was examining. It is at least a nice study given the number of compounds that were simultaneously compared.)

(Also, I've posted here a few times in the past few months, r.e. the L-Carnitine and Trommelen et al. 100g milk protein study. It's SUPER cool that my podcast gets mentioned here, and I get a chance to follow-up a bit on those topics. The Youtube commentary leaves a lot to be desired... LOL)

-S

 

[specter]

Hey Everyone!

Wow - thank for ALL the kind words and the tags! LOL This was a fun project to dig into.

As I mention at the start of the video, I'm certainly no expert on AAS, but thought I could at least contribute here by pointing out the few basic things I do feel like I have a the beginnings of a grasp on, to at least provide an entry point for further discussion on this topic.

I always seem to realize when I start in a mini-project how much I really DON'T know and how my I need to restrict my urge to make tangential comments that are relevant but can easily distract from the larger message. For instance, each of the studies I brush over here have limitations and nuances I just didn't have time to dig deeply into and not lose the listener. Each of the topics on the slide with the various factors that vary pharmacologically or on a genetic basis are worthy of much more time. (A whole talk could be easily done on the Hershberger assay - thanks to @Type-IIx for the link to Peter Bond's article! - covering the history and pitfalls, and I had to cringe a bit representing that Boris et al. study as I did, but didn't want to throw the baby completely out with the bathwater, especially since I'd been asked repeatedly about this study, so I figured it was worthwhile to examine it on it's pseudo-face value in the context of the the bigger question I was examining. It is at least a nice study given the number of compounds that were simultaneously compared.)

(Also, I've posted here a few times in the past few months, r.e. the L-Carnitine and Trommelen et al. 100g milk protein study. It's SUPER cool that my podcast gets mentioned here, and I get a chance to follow-up a bit on those topics. The Youtube commentary leaves a lot to be desired... LOL)

-S

Thx for dropping by, loved this video so much info, saw Dr.Dean also liked it im still at large in regards to the whole "anadrol doesnt aromatize" but it can give you gyno ppl still blast me for that also love gettin to pick the great minds of bodybuilding you guys have givin me so much knowledge over the last 15+ years...

 

[specter]

He was pretty active recently in the l Carnitine thyroid thread!

Yeah i asked him to look in and give his take on it

 

[Doitagain]

Albeit on rodents, for 10 days and all the other flaws, that study reminds me how much I love Winstrol and how I always found it a totally uderrated tissue builder. If it was gentler on liver and lipids I'd run this shit literally year round.

 

[Siggy]

Albeit on rodents, for 10 days and all the other flaws, that study reminds me how much I love Winstrol and how I always found it a totally uderrated tissue builder. If it was gentler on liver and lipids I'd run this shit literally year round.

In terms of pure strength and pure lean tissue gains, I have not used anything else that can compare, including Tren/Primo/EQ/Anavar and Tbol. Its immediate definition effects are nuts

If it wasnt such a bad idea for your health, it would be interesting to run nothing but a TRT dose of 150 MG Test and 50MG of Winstrol ED for an entire year just to see how much actual lean tissue Winstrol alone builds.

I think you would look incredible albeit with really fucked up health markers.

Sounds like something Andreas Munzer would do (or probably did)

 

[luki7788]

Albeit on rodents, for 10 days and all the other flaws, that study reminds me how much I love Winstrol and how I always found it a totally uderrated tissue builder. If it was gentler on liver and lipids I'd run this shit literally year round.

I can't imagine preparing for a bodybuilding competition without vinstrol - I may not use trenbolone, but vinstrol is a must for me, it gives such a unique look like nothing else. 150-200mg a day and you won't recognize yourself in the mirror if your body fat is below 6%

 

[Doitagain]

I may not use trenbolone, but vinstrol is a must for me

100% cosigned!

 

[stackdizzy]

I remember the days of growth, slin, test, and winny being the holy grail.

 

[275bills]

I remember the days of growth, slin, test, and winny being the holy grail.

I like how you just sled winny in there

 

[Big Dave Smith]

I can't imagine preparing for a bodybuilding competition without vinstrol - I may not use trenbolone, but vinstrol is a must for me, it gives such a unique look like nothing else. 150-200mg a day and you won't recognize yourself in the mirror if your body fat is below 6%

How long do you run it for at that dose? Do you titrate up over the course of weeks? How many?

 

[luki7788]

How long do you run it for at that dose? Do you titrate up over the course of weeks? How many?

When I competed usually started 6 weeks before comp 50mg and gradually increased it to 150-200mg per day in the last 2 weeks (usually half from the tablets and half from the injected oil base).

 

[stackdizzy]

I like how you just sled winny in there

Oh no dude it was an actual thing, it came out because some BB in New York I believe had sent packs to his gfs work. Well they got caught but he convinced a judge or jury that his gfs got flowers all the time from said BB and she thought that's what she had signed for. The BB claimed he had been set up by some of his competition and they got off. Somewhere some guy during this trail said all 4 of the compounds have a synergistic effect. It was the days of magazines but I don't know/remember the guys name. This is probably 30-25 years ago. after that magazines were all over it.

 

[nothuman]

Winstrol is one of the few things I've never used. I didn't realize so many people loved it. I kind of viewed it as something with similar effects to masteron as far as how you look goes. Is it that much better?

Which is better between Anavar (which I like a lot) and Winstrol?

 

[Doitagain]

Winstrol is one of the few things I've never used. I didn't realize so many people loved it. I kind of viewed it as something with similar effects to masteron as far as how you look goes. Is it that much better?

Which is better between Anavar (which I like a lot) and Winstrol?

It's like Masteron on steroids. Everything you may like from Masteron, just five fold better and quicker...+ a very decent tissue building effect.
BUT
Masteron is sustainable for a long ass time, winny not really.