Enclomiphene in TRT

[PoptartPsycho]

Hello guys, I know there have been a few threads on enclomiphene here. Not much info though.
The TRT/HRT clinic that I have been using for 8 years now have swapped out their Gonadorelin for enclomiphene tabs. Now, I asked in the past why not use clomid while on TRT instead of HCG and people reported it was a bad choice and to NOT to do it. So how does enclomiphene compare? Anyone actually use it?

The protocol is 200mg Test Cyp weekly, .5mg arimidex twice weekly, and the enclomiphene tabs. I know some people claim they are trying to sell you more but really, the service is the same each month ($80) whether you get it or not.

Thank you in advance for the replies.

 

[Swifto]

Hello guys, I know there have been a few threads on enclomiphene here. Not much info though.
The TRT/HRT clinic that I have been using for 8 years now have swapped out their Gonadorelin for enclomiphene tabs. Now, I asked in the past why not use clomid while on TRT instead of HCG and people reported it was a bad choice and to NOT to do it. So how does enclomiphene compare? Anyone actually use it?

The protocol is 200mg Test Cyp weekly, .5mg arimidex twice weekly, and the enclomiphene tabs. I know some people claim they are trying to sell you more but really, the service is the same each month ($80) whether you get it or not.

Thank you in advance for the replies.

Hmm... If they're swapping out Gonadorelin (GnRH agonist) for Enclomiphene, perhaps there is data that shows it can increase intra-testiscular (ITT) LH/FSH levels in the presence of exogenous testosterone? I'm pretty sure other SERMs cant, like its close relative Clomiphene and also Tamoxifen.

it must maintain some fertility (Enclomipehene + TRT) or help with testisticular size and function.

Someone needs to get LH and FSH tested on TRT plus Enclomiphene...

 

[Swifto]

HCG alternative, enclomiphene citrate.

Located in Atlanta, GA, Low T Nation specializes in Men's Health issues like erectile testosterone replacement, erectile dysfunction and peptide therapies. Call now!

www.lowtnation.com

 

[fisther69]

Hmm... If they're swapping out Gonadorelin (GnRH agonist) for Enclomiphene, perhaps there is data that shows it can increase intra-testiscular (ITT) LH/FSH levels in the presence of exogenous testosterone? I'm pretty sure other SERMs cant, like its close relative Clomiphene and also Tamoxifen.

it must maintain some fertility (Enclomipehene + TRT) or help with testisticular size and function.

Someone needs to get LH and FSH tested on TRT plus Enclomiphene...

Yeah, I tried that for 6 months and my test went down consistently 200 points when compared to HCG and my balls shrunk

 

[Swifto]

Yeah, I tried that for 6 months and my test went down consistently 200 points when compared to HCG and my balls shrunk

What was your TRT and Enclomiphene dose?

 

[KillerStack]

I've asked a few times if any members had used clomid during a cycle, if they noticed their testicles "working" more, testicle volume, semen volume etc. I didn't get any replies. Many have said it increased their semen volume dramatically but these may be guys who took it after cycles. Some HRT experts, like on facebook, are adamant that it will not work with exogenous androgens in the system. It will not work even if only using HCG. Back in the day Dante said it did work during cruises. More recently Victor Black was dissing Dante for saying this but Dante said it did work for the guys he oversaw. I suspect it might work a little at least. Now if some HRT clinic is prescribing it you'd think they had evidence that it works but maybe not, maybe they want to just sell "something." I never used it but someone gave me a bunch of old tabs so I'm going to try it just because I'm curious. A bit apprehensive due to the reported mental sides though. A very experienced endo, who has worked with bodybuilders specifically for decades, guys who wanted to stop the "abuse," said he never heard of anyone feeling bad on clomid. Wtf, how could he have missed it?

 

[Swifto]

I've asked a few times if any members had used clomid during a cycle, if they noticed their testicles "working" more, testicle volume, semen volume etc. I didn't get any replies. Many have said it increased their semen volume dramatically but these may be guys who took it after cycles. Some HRT experts, like on facebook, are adamant that it will not work with exogenous androgens in the system. It will not work even if only using HCG. Back in the day Dante said it did work during cruises. More recently Victor Black was dissing Dante for saying this but Dante said it did work for the guys he oversaw. I suspect it might work a little at least. Now if some HRT clinic is prescribing it you'd think they had evidence that it works but maybe not, maybe they want to just sell "something." I never used it but someone gave me a bunch of old tabs so I'm going to try it just because I'm curious. A bit apprehensive due to the reported mental sides though. A very experienced endo, who has worked with bodybuilders specifically for decades, guys who wanted to stop the "abuse," said he never heard of anyone feeling bad on clomid. Wtf, how could he have missed it?

Be interested to see what happens.

You'd have to get LH and FSH tested IMO and use a low enough dosage of exogenous testosterone like true TRT 100-150mg per week. Perhaps even Emeric protocol 10mg/ED.

Do you have Enclomiphene or Clomid tabs?

 

[fisther69]

What was your TRT and Enclomiphene dose?

I do not remember the enclomiphene dose but my trt is 180mg a week and the HCG dose is around 350iu 3x a week

 

[DOGGCRAPP]

I've asked a few times if any members had used clomid during a cycle, if they noticed their testicles "working" more, testicle volume, semen volume etc. I didn't get any replies. Many have said it increased their semen volume dramatically but these may be guys who took it after cycles. Some HRT experts, like on facebook, are adamant that it will not work with exogenous androgens in the system. It will not work even if only using HCG. Back in the day Dante said it did work during cruises. More recently Victor Black was dissing Dante for saying this but Dante said it did work for the guys he oversaw. I suspect it might work a little at least. Now if some HRT clinic is prescribing it you'd think they had evidence that it works but maybe not, maybe they want to just sell "something." I never used it but someone gave me a bunch of old tabs so I'm going to try it just because I'm curious. A bit apprehensive due to the reported mental sides though. A very experienced endo, who has worked with bodybuilders specifically for decades, guys who wanted to stop the "abuse," said he never heard of anyone feeling bad on clomid. Wtf, how could he have missed it?

Please (like everyone else in bodybuilding) take anything Victor Black says with less than a grain of salt. He has been touting for years that he brought Telmisartan and other scenarios to the bodybuilding world. Absolutely false. Professional Muscle brought Telmisartan to the attention of the bodybuilding world a full decade previous to Victor Black (or anyone else) trying to make that claim did. There are about 200 topics out there on social media that people are trying to claim for themselves like they are the origin...when the truth of the matter is those topics were talked about and discussed on Professional Muscle years if not a decade plus previously. One search on someone like Discohornet will show you who brought Telmisartan to the forefront on here. I digress.

People are so absolute with things sometimes it drives me nuts how close minded they are to maybe there are other options. For example Enclomiphene. Right off the bat you'll hear the white knight experts come right in and say "Well because of the feedback loop a SERM cannot work like that....." ....well then maybe you are right and maybe you are wrong but you cannot deny that there are posts like the following....(cut and pasted)

-- I took 25mg a day of enclomiphene while on 150mg of test cyp and my LH was in the middle of the reference range and my Fsh was well above the reference range. And my total test level was 1200+.
and this person reported that previously while just on TRT that his testosterone was 700 or so (if i remember right) and when he added the enclomiphene it soared. Complete with bloodwork attached.

Is that definitive proof no....but there seems to be more anecdotal evidence coming in that many people feel this seems to work for them. So myself i have never been one of these "Absolutely Not", "Absolutely Yes" people in bodybuilding because you end up eating crow when you do that....because there are maybe things we dont understand currently that will be more understood as years go by. I would suggest (i would not go to 25mg enclomiphene but) I would suggest you try out some daily enclomiphene with TRT and see the difference between total and free for yourself pre and post.

 

[DOGGCRAPP]

I took a large amount of time and researched how badly that Zuclomiphene isomer was for men years ago....(and i have always thought clomid was the devils drug because of it) but I am very high on enclomiphene and have been for quite a few years. An interesting study was to see the FSH and LH raise when Zuclomiphene was left out of the drug. I wish I could see the average beginning testosterone amounts of both groups but this study is pretty fascinating regardless.

https://www.auajournals.org/doi/abs/10.1097/JU.0000000000003289.13

 

[PoptartPsycho]

My original TRT was :
200mg Test Cyp Weekly
50ius HCG twice a week (had to mix and store in fridge)
1mg adex twice a week (on days of HCG shot)

Then it went to :
200mg Test Cyp weekly
50ius Gonadorelin twice a week (came already mixed, stored at room temp)
.5mg adex twice a week (on days of Gonadorelin shot)

Now it is currently
200mg Test Cyp weekly
1 enclomiphene capsule twice a week
.5mg adex once a week

I have been using the enclomiphene now for two weeks. Probably too early to tell. When I get my labs done in a couple months, I will post the results. I do NOT have prior labs with HCG and Gonadorelin to go by and compare because quite frankly, the only thing I could see they did for me was leave bruises at the injection site. No matter where I would do the SQ inject, I would have a bruise there. Stomach, shoulders, quads, ass, etc.. 10 injects would result in at least 8 nasty looking bruises. Never had a bruise in my life from AAS or any other peptide. I did use HCG religiously like it was prescribed years ago when I started TRT, but never saw anything like increased testicular size or semen volume increased. (My testicles have always been slightly below average and my semen volume has always been a "lot" basically. All the HCG I used did nothing to change that. Neither in a good way or bad.)

I did not use 350ius a week like the poster above though.

 

[Swifto]

My original TRT was :
200mg Test Cyp Weekly
50ius HCG twice a week (had to mix and store in fridge)
1mg adex twice a week (on days of HCG shot)

Then it went to :
200mg Test Cyp weekly
50ius Gonadorelin twice a week (came already mixed, stored at room temp)
.5mg adex twice a week (on days of Gonadorelin shot)

Now it is currently
200mg Test Cyp weekly
1 enclomiphene capsule twice a week
.5mg adex once a week

I have been using the enclomiphene now for two weeks. Probably too early to tell. When I get my labs done in a couple months, I will post the results. I do NOT have prior labs with HCG and Gonadorelin to go by and compare because quite frankly, the only thing I could see they did for me was leave bruises at the injection site. No matter where I would do the SQ inject, I would have a bruise there. Stomach, shoulders, quads, ass, etc.. 10 injects would result in at least 8 nasty looking bruises. Never had a bruise in my life from AAS or any other peptide. I did use HCG religiously like it was prescribed years ago when I started TRT, but never saw anything like increased testicular size or semen volume increased. (My testicles have always been slightly below average and my semen volume has always been a "lot" basically. All the HCG I used did nothing to change that. Neither in a good way or bad.)

I did not use 350ius a week like the poster above though.

Did you have LH and FSH tested when on TRT + Gondarelin?

 

[Mike Arnold]

Hmm... If they're swapping out Gonadorelin (GnRH agonist) for Enclomiphene, perhaps there is data that shows it can increase intra-testiscular (ITT) LH/FSH levels in the presence of exogenous testosterone? I'm pretty sure other SERMs cant, like its close relative Clomiphene and also Tamoxifen.

it must maintain some fertility (Enclomipehene + TRT) or help with testisticular size and function.

Someone needs to get LH and FSH tested on TRT plus Enclomiphene...

Or...there's another motive.

I've seen no extensive data suggesting that enclom has anywhere near the efficacy of HCG when it comes to maintaining T levels in the presence of exogenous steroids. If enclom was able to maintain T and sperm levels at the level of the hypothalamus, in all people while in the presence of exo. AAS, it would be the miracle drug we've all been waiting for because it would be able to completely stop all suppression from the beginning of the HPTA loop.

The problem is that I've seen mixed reviews. If all you use is enclom during a cycle, your LH and FSH levels can still fall, and your T production and sperm count can still sink. At this point, I think HCG is the most reliable option we have for maintaining T levels during a cycle, but even that drug doesn't stop suppression at the level of the hypothalamus. It just keeps the testes working. Similarly, HMG will keep sperm production going while on-cycle, but suppression still occurs at the level of the hypothalamus.

 

[Swifto]

Or...there's another motive.

I've seen no extensive data suggesting that enclom has anywhere near the efficacy of HCG when it comes to maintaining T levels in the presence of exogenous steroids. If enclom was able to maintain T and sperm levels at the level of the hypothalamus, in all people while in the presence of exo. AAS, it would be the miracle drug we've all been waiting for because it would be able to completely stop all suppression from the beginning of the HPTA loop.

The problem is that I've seen mixed reviews. If all you use is enclom during a cycle, your LH and FSH levels can still fall, and your T production and sperm count can still sink. At this point, I think HCG is the most reliable option we have for maintaining T levels during a cycle, but even that drug doesn't stop suppression at the level of the hypothalamus. It just keeps the testes working. Similarly, HMG will keep sperm production going while on-cycle, but suppression still occurs at the level of the hypothalamus.

Gondarelin may be able to maintain GnRH (being a GnRH agonist) and therefore LH and FSH in the presence of exogenous testosterone. Naltrexone got some hype years ago, but seems to have fallen out of popularity.

Unless TRT clinics are just trying to make extra cash prescribing more drugs (Gandarelin)...

Who really gets LH and FSH tested on TRT anyway, not many people, whats the point? Its assumed as zero/very low anyway. TT and FT fair enough, LH and FSH not often.

 

[Mike Arnold]

In the labs I've seen, I've yet to see consistency. Neither have I seen anyone who was able to completely off-set the negative effect of AAS on the HPTA (when using enclom). I'm not saying that hasn't happened, but just that I haven't seen it. Personally, I've seen greater (and certainly more consistent) success with HCG, but again, suppression at the level of the hypothalamus-pituitary is still a problem. I would be interested to see a couple dozen labs from people who've used both HCG and enclom while on-cycle. If anyone here has, please speak up.

 

[KillerStack]

Cynical suspicion: wasn't there a shortage of HCG a while back? Maybe the HRT clinics "switched" to enclomiphene to offset the income loss from the lack of HCG. And only taking 12.5mg twice weekly? They claim this will preserve test production and downstream hormones that are lost when on HRT without HCG. Like Mike said, this would be a real miracle! There are probably more hacks than "real" serious docs in that business.

I won't do any labs due to "reasons" but I will just observe my nuts when taking this clomid lol. See if they swell and if there is that dull ache that many feel when starting or stopping steroids. Or higher semen volume.

 

[Swifto]

In the labs I've seen, I've yet to see consistency. Neither have I seen anyone who was able to completely off-set the negative effect of AAS on the HPTA (when using enclom). I'm not saying that hasn't happened, but just that I haven't seen it. Personally, I've seen greater (and certainly more consistent) success with HCG, but again, suppression at the level of the hypothalamus-pituitary is still a problem. I would be interested to see a couple dozen labs from people who've used both HCG and enclom while on-cycle. If anyone here has, please speak up.

Looking for a pharma enclomiphene source as I want to do TRT plus enclomiphene and get LH/FSH tested.

Is your product third party tested? Do you have COA? Is it USA manufactured?

 

[Swifto]

Please (like everyone else in bodybuilding) take anything Victor Black says with less than a grain of salt. He has been touting for years that he brought Telmisartan and other scenarios to the bodybuilding world. Absolutely false. Professional Muscle brought Telmisartan to the attention of the bodybuilding world a full decade previous to Victor Black (or anyone else) trying to make that claim did. There are about 200 topics out there on social media that people are trying to claim for themselves like they are the origin...when the truth of the matter is those topics were talked about and discussed on Professional Muscle years if not a decade plus previously. One search on someone like Discohornet will show you who brought Telmisartan to the forefront on here. I digress.

People are so absolute with things sometimes it drives me nuts how close minded they are to maybe there are other options. For example Enclomiphene. Right off the bat you'll hear the white knight experts come right in and say "Well because of the feedback loop a SERM cannot work like that....." ....well then maybe you are right and maybe you are wrong but you cannot deny that there are posts like the following....(cut and pasted)

-- I took 25mg a day of enclomiphene while on 150mg of test cyp and my LH was in the middle of the reference range and my Fsh was well above the reference range. And my total test level was 1200+.
and this person reported that previously while just on TRT that his testosterone was 700 or so (if i remember right) and when he added the enclomiphene it soared. Complete with bloodwork attached.

Is that definitive proof no....but there seems to be more anecdotal evidence coming in that many people feel this seems to work for them. So myself i have never been one of these "Absolutely Not", "Absolutely Yes" people in bodybuilding because you end up eating crow when you do that....because there are maybe things we dont understand currently that will be more understood as years go by. I would suggest (i would not go to 25mg enclomiphene but) I would suggest you try out some daily enclomiphene with TRT and see the difference between total and free for yourself pre and post.

Could you try this too?

Let's get a few of us and try to formulate a solid opinion on this.

I am still looking for a reliable Enclomiphene source, preferably pharma Androxal...

Legit TRT 100-150mg/wk for minimum 6 weeks, 12.5mg per day Enclomiphene, LH, FSH, TT, FT tested.

 

[Mike Arnold]

Looking for a pharma enclomiphene source as I want to do TRT plus enclomiphene and get LH/FSH tested.

Is your product third party tested? Do you have COA? Is it USA manufactured?

I don't sell pharma. No research companies do, at least that I've seen. Besides, a research company would have to be really dumb to do that. I am now out of Enclom. I bought a batch, tested it...it came back great...and it all sold out in a week due to my price being so much lower than most. People then posted a bunch of labs over at Anabolic Minds showing great results. I then got another batch...twice as large...and sold it even faster. I am now waiting on my 3rd batch. It should be in within the week.

 

[Mike Arnold]

Looking for a pharma enclomiphene source as I want to do TRT plus enclomiphene and get LH/FSH tested.

Is your product third party tested? Do you have COA? Is it USA manufactured?

It's NOT made in the US. Nothing is anymore. Whenever you see these companies saying "made in the U.S.", what they actually mean is that it was bottled in the U.S. The chemical was not made here. The U.S. is no longer the world's top chemical manufacturer. China is. They do it cheaper AND better. China is now FAR MOR advanced and competent at making chemicals...by a landslide. It's not even close. I fact, I personally don't trust U.S. chemical manufacturers anymore. Out of the handful of exorbitantly expensive U.S chemical manufacturers that still exist, they tend to make MORE mistakes than Chinese companies. This is the truth. China is the KING of chemical manufacturing. China makes 90% of all the drugs sold by pharmacies. The only real problem with buying from China is that you need to know who you're buying from. You see, unlike U.S. chemical manufacturers, Chinese manufacturers will sell off their damaged lots to other buyers, who then pretend to be manufacturers themselves....and will sell those damaged lots to unsuspecting U.S buyers. Those shady sellers set up websites identical to legitimate manufacturers, so it is easy to be fooled if you don't know who you are dealing with. The legit manufacturers have absolutely massive facilities---like 150,000 square feet with a huge staff of lab techs, etc. There are also manufacturers that specialize solely in lyophilized peptides, which also have huge 100,000+ facilities. These are the same manufacturers that makes drugs for Pfizer, etc. The Chinese chemical business is a massive racket, which includes everyone from the super legit to the biggest scammers, so knowledge is an absolute must.