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Growing in a calorie deficit??

b-boy

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Actually I'm just fighting to get to where I was , I've put in the time and suffering , I'm not looking for an "easy way" to do anything.
I'm trying to find ANY way. It's physically impossible for me to eat the volume of food that I did pre surgery.
I guess if I had the quitter mentality that you do I'd just accept it , but I don't.
If someone told you to go pick up a 20 ton rail car would you look at it and say "that's simply impossible"??? Or would you use that squishy shit between your ears for something useful and construct a plan and device to get the job done??
He has a quitter mentality? Dude WTF? he gives his advice and opinion and you don't like it so you talk shit about him? To be honest what he said was EXACTLY 💯 what I was thinking. Stop trying to eat 6-7 times a day with fucked up digestive issues and just be lean and mean. Eat what you can when you can and don't even stress over it, let your body go to where it naturally would go and just continue to train (careful not to overdo it with with your limited protein intake) do some intense cardio and just look like a lean and fit Spartan.
 

heavyhitter

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Honestly I never even thought about it , I stopped buying honey when my local guy moved.
I'll find another local source and try it out
It’s definitely a slower digesting carb than regular sugar and it’s antibacterial properties can help with some digestive issues.
 

OuchThatHurts

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Looking at the example day of eating you laid out, you have zero fats. Not a single thing mentioned. Fats and carbs = energy. Energy for your job (aerobic) and for the gym (anaerobic). I don't know your post history but if you can handle fats, then add a lot of healthy fats. You could add 1000 kcals of fats easy.

I'm not a fan of powdered protein so much but prefer food. But if that's the only way you can get protein, then it is what it is. I keep isolate on hand for such occasions when time prevents me from getting my meats, eggs, etc. Also EAAs, and BCAAs but I take those anyway. But even getting enough protein and aminos will not be enough without the calories to get it where it needs to go which requires fats and carbs.

I do almost exclusively proteins and fats with few exceptions: immediately or soonest meal after a workout or on a cheat/refeed day if I feel I need one (which is becoming less often). That's pretty much all the carbs I ever eat. You can get fat on a carb cycling diet too though if you go too overboard with the proteins and fats.

Honey is fine from the store as long as it's pure honey and no added HFCS or other sugars and unpasteurized. Buying local is nice but it can also be a pain if you have to run 6 different places.

I wouldn't worry too much about slin for now if I were you. I don't know how much experience you have with it but not knowing exactly when to take it will lower your badly needed blood glucose even more and soften you up with bodyfat. Especially a form that isn't super fast acting That's why I use it so little and so little of it when I do. On 3000 kcals, slin wouldn't seem necessary. In fact, maybe even more depleting. Then your body is just going to convert your dietary protein and powders to sugar anyway (along with some muscle if necessary).
 

TheOtherOne55

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im kind of lost.
Why dont u just add in more carbs and split up your fats?
First off....what's your maintenance? Do we know that? I dont think we do, so that is help ful.
If the diet you gave is accurate and its still a deficit...what can we do to boost the cals?

Well, for one, you said you can only eat 10-15g of fat per meal. Ok...then add fat.
You have 7 opportunities for nutrition in your OP post. Well then keep fats out of your intra and post...and add fats to the other 5. Literally every meal after your PWO meal should have fats in this.

Honestly, this is not hard. You cannot eat more protein....ok. So you can add carbs and small amount of fats to those other meals and can 100% progress. Any coach new-level coach do the exact same thing.
 

b-boy

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im kind of lost.
Why dont u just add in more carbs and split up your fats?
First off....what's your maintenance? Do we know that? I dont think we do, so that is help ful.
If the diet you gave is accurate and its still a deficit...what can we do to boost the cals?

Well, for one, you said you can only eat 10-15g of fat per meal. Ok...then add fat.
You have 7 opportunities for nutrition in your OP post. Well then keep fats out of your intra and post...and add fats to the other 5. Literally every meal after your PWO meal should have fats in this.

Honestly, this is not hard. You cannot eat more protein....ok. So you can add carbs and small amount of fats to those other meals and can 100% progress. Any coach new-level coach do the exact same thing.
Fats tear his stomach up if he eats more than 10-15 grams at a time. The guy can't digest food since his surgery so there is no need to eat multiple times a day, he just needs to eat what he can handle and stopped worrying about being big and jacked! It's time to downsize, lean up and just be fit!
 

3BILLS

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Bboy you always speak the truth.

So many guys on here keep fighting themselves to look a certain way end up just hurting themselves even more in the long run.

gunsmith I’m sure you still have some muscle. Like brad said just do what you can without pushing the limits. You will probably end up looking just as good while feeling even better 👍
 

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Look for Patrick Tuor how he keep his diet. Low protein moderate fat, high carbs. His guys looks amazing.
 

brutus69

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Fats tear his stomach up if he eats more than 10-15 grams at a time. The guy can't digest food since his surgery so there is no need to eat multiple times a day, he just needs to eat what he can handle and stopped worrying about being big and jacked! It's time to downsize, lean up and just be fit!
be honest. if YOU developed problems that ended your ability to be as big and beautiful as u are now.....would you accept that, change everything you've done and become, to end up 50 pounds smaller and weaker for the rest of your life?
its that mentality big guys all have. i know some who would rather their livers fall out than lose 20 pounds and stop the gear.
easy to tell others to suck it up and face reality. its a bit tougher if or when it happens to you.
total lifestyle change and looks change. look at seth feroce. he seems to be ok with the change. others not so much.
 

b-boy

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be honest. if YOU developed problems that ended your ability to be as big and beautiful as u are now.....would you accept that, change everything you've done and become, to end up 50 pounds smaller and weaker for the rest of your life?
its that mentality big guys all have. i know some who would rather their livers fall out than lose 20 pounds and stop the gear.
easy to tell others to suck it up and face reality. its a bit tougher if or when it happens to you.
total lifestyle change and looks change. look at seth feroce. he seems to be ok with the change. others not so much.
I'm laughing my ass off cause you have no idea how fucking easy it would be! If I could not eat without being horribly uncomfortable then I will just be a Bruce Lee looking small SHREDDED mother fucker. You see I will always be EXTREME! So It won't kill me to have to switch from one extreme to the other, I like the look of Olympic sprinters (the lean ones) I can not eat and get that look easily, I will have an excuse to always be ripped (no matter how unhealthy it is).
 

danieltx

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I'm laughing my ass off cause you have no idea how fucking easy it would be! If I could not eat without being horribly uncomfortable then I will just be a Bruce Lee looking small SHREDDED mother fucker. You see I will always be EXTREME! So It won't kill me to have to switch from one extreme to the other, I like the look of Olympic sprinters (the lean ones) I can not eat and get that look easily, I will have an excuse to always be ripped (no matter how unhealthy it is).
I'm the same way - I put down 7,000 calories yesterday and I look forward to the day when I no longer have to do that because I'm not trying to be huge.

To say 'all big guys' have that mentality is wrong - Dusty Hanshaw, Hunter Labrada, and plenty of others have talked about looking forward to downsizing after their hardcore bodybuilding days. I've posted on here how I look forward to getting off the bulk / maintain / cut hamster wheel. The ones with the huge-at-all-costs mentality are the ones with serious mental issues.
 

Love_to_Bodybuild

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I've grown plenty times in the shows where I didn't use nothing all off season then preconducts I would start hormones so obviously I grew into the show since I've been competing in 2009

Since I started trt in 2014 I've used trt dose few months before the show then would start my I would up the dose maybe two or three months before the competition I think I'm going as far as for one time but yeah obviously I would grow them into the show

Some people say that's not ideal for a bodybuilder however I disagree once the muscle is there it's not muscle memory anymore it's a nucleus or nuclei that once you get to that size it's easy to get back so obviously it's going to come back and it can come back fast within a couple months you can gain tremendous size if you've already had that muscle. So I've been competing every year since classic came out in 2016 so now for the past 6 years and I've done that where I would downsize a bit on trt then growing to the show for the most part not every year but some years

I use a potassium sodium blend salt and I use it intertraining as I think that's the most beneficial however watch out for blood pressure I think I was taken too much I may have been taking like 5 or 10 g I'm not totally sure but I cut it back and seems like my blood pressure is going down a bit so you can definitely overdo salt especially if you're blood pressure is showing warning signs
 

TheOtherOne55

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I'm the same way - I put down 7,000 calories yesterday and I look forward to the day when I no longer have to do that because I'm not trying to be huge.

To say 'all big guys' have that mentality is wrong - Dusty Hanshaw, Hunter Labrada, and plenty of others have talked about looking forward to downsizing after their hardcore bodybuilding days. I've posted on here how I look forward to getting off the bulk / maintain / cut hamster wheel. The ones with the huge-at-all-costs mentality are the ones with serious mental issues.

PREACH dude.
I honestly WISH i didn't have to eat this much. It fuckin sucks.
BUT....i love it and this is what it takes. Eventaully i will drop weight and downsize.
And itll probably be much easier to stay smaller. My appetite normally is probably right around 2500-3k cals.
When i have to double its a chore I dread.
 

nothuman

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Growing muscle in a calorie deficit is extremely difficult. The more drugs, the more likely to pull it off.
 

Love_to_Bodybuild

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Yes, but it doesn’t take a lot of drugs.
This depends how much you've been using the whole year. If you do like I used to do where I would use nothing hormonal then use a little bit yeah you'll grow

If you use trt true trt doses like 150 mg and then up it to whatever dose you want to you'll grow

That's about all I have experience with
 

bbxtreme

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So I'm mention my digestive sit here a few times in detail but the reader's digest version is this
i can't digest more than 25-30g protein at a time and the soonest I can eat is 3 hr after each meal so this greatly impacts the amount of nutrients I can get in during the day and fats absolutely tear my stomach up in I get more 10-15 grams at a time

so I've been able to work up to this diet over the last few weeks but with only 5g EAA per serving , and simply taking my 140mg/wk TRT and 2iu a day HGH Ive been able to maintain body weight but only training three times a week , I'd like to get back to 4-5 times a week

so my thoughts are to implement a little insulin and more HGH along with a lot more anabolics to see if I can actually add some muscle back.
I think there might be enough "protein" here with the added EAAs helping take place of a little protein. The carbs are WAY higher than I've ever taken in for more than a day.

this is the plan , just looking for opinions or ideas.
the Gatorade will be swapped out for another carb drink periodically and the proteins will be rotated to include eggs , shrimp and oysters to keep a full amino spectrum.

7:00: 25g protein , 90g Cream of rice , 15g Almond butter , 10g EAA+25g carbs from Gatorade

8:45: 10iu Novolin-R , 4iu HGH , strart sipping intra shake
20g EAA , 75g dextrose, 10g creatine , 10g Glutamine , 5g citulline malate

9:00: training

10:30: 25g Whey Isolate , 75g potato starch , 10g EAA

1:30: 4oz 93% ground turkey , 12oz sweet potato , 10g EAA+25g carbs from Gatorade

4:30: 5oz Catfish , 12oz boiled new potatoes , 10g EAA+25g carbs from Gatorade
10iu Novolin-R , 4iu HGH

7:30: 3oz Sirloin , 12oz sweet potato , 10g EAA+25g carbs from Gatorade

10:00 25g Casein , 25g potato starch , 10g EAA

I realize that this only equals around 3100 calories but the EAA don't account for any calorie
the EAA I use are the True Nutrition so in addition to the EAA there are BCAA including Leucine
I'm not looking to add a ton of size or anything just fill back out to a lean 250ish pounds which I have been well over for years so I'm not trying to add new tissue just fill back in what I had

anabolics will be 300mg test and 500mg EQ to start with
So I'm mention my digestive sit here a few times in detail but the reader's digest version is this
i can't digest more than 25-30g protein at a time and the soonest I can eat is 3 hr after each meal so this greatly impacts the amount of nutrients I can get in during the day and fats absolutely tear my stomach up in I get more 10-15 grams at a time

so I've been able to work up to this diet over the last few weeks but with only 5g EAA per serving , and simply taking my 140mg/wk TRT and 2iu a day HGH Ive been able to maintain body weight but only training three times a week , I'd like to get back to 4-5 times a week

so my thoughts are to implement a little insulin and more HGH along with a lot more anabolics to see if I can actually add some muscle back.
I think there might be enough "protein" here with the added EAAs helping take place of a little protein. The carbs are WAY higher than I've ever taken in for more than a day.

this is the plan , just looking for opinions or ideas.
the Gatorade will be swapped out for another carb drink periodically and the proteins will be rotated to include eggs , shrimp and oysters to keep a full amino spectrum.

7:00: 25g protein , 90g Cream of rice , 15g Almond butter , 10g EAA+25g carbs from Gatorade

8:45: 10iu Novolin-R , 4iu HGH , strart sipping intra shake
20g EAA , 75g dextrose, 10g creatine , 10g Glutamine , 5g citulline malate

9:00: training

10:30: 25g Whey Isolate , 75g potato starch , 10g EAA

1:30: 4oz 93% ground turkey , 12oz sweet potato , 10g EAA+25g carbs from Gatorade

4:30: 5oz Catfish , 12oz boiled new potatoes , 10g EAA+25g carbs from Gatorade
10iu Novolin-R , 4iu HGH

7:30: 3oz Sirloin , 12oz sweet potato , 10g EAA+25g carbs from Gatorade

10:00 25g Casein , 25g potato starch , 10g EAA

I realize that this only equals around 3100 calories but the EAA don't account for any calorie
the EAA I use are the True Nutrition so in addition to the EAA there are BCAA including Leucine
I'm not looking to add a ton of size or anything just fill back out to a lean 250ish pounds which I have been well over for years so I'm not trying to add new tissue just fill back in what I had

anabolics will be 300mg test and 500mg EQ to start with
I think a lot of guys get wrapped up in consuming too much protein today with the “more is better” mentality. 1-1-1.5 grams per pound of body fat is all anyone truly needs. Layne Norton and Lyle McDonald have hammered the research on this for us. :)

Using EAA’s to maintain muscle mass while cutting is great as it ensures your body has enough Lucien to ensure the protein you consume is fully utilized.

Others have likely already suggested, but some simple things I would adjust that would make a big impact:

1. Add a good full spectrum digestive enzyme with each meal.
2. Consider switching up the carb sources that could be inflammatory in your gut such as removing processed sugar and maybe the dextrose and using pre-digested forms such as cluster dextrose or Karbolyn. Cream of rice and White Rice would be great food choices as they digest quicker and don’t have the higher fiber content that oatmeal or potatoes will have. I’m a huge fan and believer of fiber intake but knowing your digestive circumstances would just limit and ensure higher water content.
3. Casein: it’s a great slower digesting protein, but is inflammatory for many and can cause GI discomfort. Using a wholefood protein would likely have more benefit or substitute for a clean whey isolate with a high EAA and Lucien content.

Insulin- I know many prefer Novolin R as it’s cheaper and easier to get. But when cutting or in a calorie deficit prefer Humalog as it’s much easier to time and control with its peaks and timing. It may sound simple and old school but I have seen some of the most successful competitors keep it simple and do 6iu humalog pre- workout for 4 weeks then bump to 8iu for 2 weeks then come off. This keeps in line with your body’s natural release and limits insulin resistance while maximizing workout recovery and pump. I’m sure many on here will suggest far more advance protocols, but while simple have never seen that approach not be effective when nutrition and workouts are right.

I have read a lot of your stuff on here and sure you may have considered much of this already so hope it’s helpful!
 

Matsuo Munefusa

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I think a lot of guys get wrapped up in consuming too much protein today with the “more is better” mentality. 1-1-1.5 grams per pound of body fat is all anyone truly needs. Layne Norton and Lyle McDonald have hammered the research on this for us. :)

Using EAA’s to maintain muscle mass while cutting is great as it ensures your body has enough Lucien to ensure the protein you consume is fully utilized.

Others have likely already suggested, but some simple things I would adjust that would make a big impact:

1. Add a good full spectrum digestive enzyme with each meal.
2. Consider switching up the carb sources that could be inflammatory in your gut such as removing processed sugar and maybe the dextrose and using pre-digested forms such as cluster dextrose or Karbolyn. Cream of rice and White Rice would be great food choices as they digest quicker and don’t have the higher fiber content that oatmeal or potatoes will have. I’m a huge fan and believer of fiber intake but knowing your digestive circumstances would just limit and ensure higher water content.
3. Casein: it’s a great slower digesting protein, but is inflammatory for many and can cause GI discomfort. Using a wholefood protein would likely have more benefit or substitute for a clean whey isolate with a high EAA and Lucien content.

Insulin- I know many prefer Novolin R as it’s cheaper and easier to get. But when cutting or in a calorie deficit prefer Humalog as it’s much easier to time and control with its peaks and timing. It may sound simple and old school but I have seen some of the most successful competitors keep it simple and do 6iu humalog pre- workout for 4 weeks then bump to 8iu for 2 weeks then come off. This keeps in line with your body’s natural release and limits insulin resistance while maximizing workout recovery and pump. I’m sure many on here will suggest far more advance protocols, but while simple have never seen that approach not be effective when nutrition and workouts are right.

I have read a lot of your stuff on here and sure you may have considered much of this already so hope it’s helpful!
Is any of the research on 1g/lb protein with enhanced dudes blasting a ton of gear?
 

OuchThatHurts

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I think a lot of guys get wrapped up in consuming too much protein today with the “more is better” mentality. 1-1-1.5 grams per pound of body fat is all anyone truly needs. Layne Norton and Lyle McDonald have hammered the research on this for us. :)

Using EAA’s to maintain muscle mass while cutting is great as it ensures your body has enough Lucien to ensure the protein you consume is fully utilized.

Others have likely already suggested, but some simple things I would adjust that would make a big impact:

1. Add a good full spectrum digestive enzyme with each meal.
2. Consider switching up the carb sources that could be inflammatory in your gut such as removing processed sugar and maybe the dextrose and using pre-digested forms such as cluster dextrose or Karbolyn. Cream of rice and White Rice would be great food choices as they digest quicker and don’t have the higher fiber content that oatmeal or potatoes will have. I’m a huge fan and believer of fiber intake but knowing your digestive circumstances would just limit and ensure higher water content.
3. Casein: it’s a great slower digesting protein, but is inflammatory for many and can cause GI discomfort. Using a wholefood protein would likely have more benefit or substitute for a clean whey isolate with a high EAA and Lucien content.

Insulin- I know many prefer Novolin R as it’s cheaper and easier to get. But when cutting or in a calorie deficit prefer Humalog as it’s much easier to time and control with its peaks and timing. It may sound simple and old school but I have seen some of the most successful competitors keep it simple and do 6iu humalog pre- workout for 4 weeks then bump to 8iu for 2 weeks then come off. This keeps in line with your body’s natural release and limits insulin resistance while maximizing workout recovery and pump. I’m sure many on here will suggest far more advance protocols, but while simple have never seen that approach not be effective when nutrition and workouts are right.

I have read a lot of your stuff on here and sure you may have considered much of this already so hope it’s helpful!
Knowing the very little about human biology that I do, it would seem to be best to just keep a constant flow of digested protein in the bloodstream to rebuild broken down muscle fibers (i.e. smaller more frequent meals).

From what I gather, only existing muscle cells enlarge and size is limited to those cells. But you can form new fibers from satellite cells which can happen in a high IGF-1 environment. I know there are mixed views on IGF but when I do the PWO IGF1LR3, it lights me up! The more food I eat, the more pumped I get. In a big way.

But a normal day for me is 8 small meals 2 hours apart each with 40g protein. Gives me a steady supply of protein and fats all day long (over 300grams/day). I usually leave a shake of eggs and vanilla whey by my bedside for when I wake up hungry in the middle of the almost every night.
 

bbxtreme

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Is any of the research on 1g/lb protein with enhanced dudes blasting a ton of gear?
Is any of the research on 1g/lb protein with enhanced dudes blasting a ton of gear?
As I am sure you know there has been so much back and forth on this topic over the years. I have always been one who does well with high protein personally and enjoy eating meat so isn’t an issue.

I would defer to Lyle McDonald and Layne Norton on this one as both have dedicated their research to protein. They both to my understanding agree that taking gear doesn’t equate to higher protein needs and are minimal if anything- believe Layne suggest 1.2 grams per pound. But keep in mind it comes down to stimulating muscle protein synthesis which is largely around Lucien amount. Taking in too much protein can have a negative impact on this process so it’s all about finding the right amount, macro timing, distribution, and sources

I completely agree with @OuchThatHurts that you want to keep protein or more so EAAs in your body so that there is no breakdown.

Food sources of course are generally always superior and have a longer breakdown period than shakes. But in the case of @Gunsmith who has GI issues a good whey isolate with high EAA’s will help ensure protein intake is met and cut down on digestive discomfort.

He also has an edge by sipping EAA’s throughout the day as this ensures he has plenty of Leucine to utilize any protein he takes in.

Why not get more from less- how efficiently your body uses and processes what you take in is what everyone aims for I believe.
 

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