HCG mid-cycle question

[bd1]

I'm usually pretty good dispensing a little advice here and there, but a buddy of mine, who is about 8 maybe 10 weeks into an EQ/Stan cycle asked me about HCG yesterday and I didn't know how to answer him.

Having never used HCG myself, I did some research and I found many conflicting ways to use it.

Some say to do it during the cycle in small doses (250iu) about 2-3 times/week - this minimized potential estrogen related sides from higher dosages. Others say to do it once a month and do 1000iu 3x over the course of a week. Still others say to use it post-cycle with Clomid and Nolva, but I've read conflicting info on this, saying that it would actually hurt you in this method.

I also found info on using HCG to "save" yourself if you didn't use it from the onset, by doing large doses to make up for lack of use, then following up with smaller doses in the last weeks of the cycle, but this conflicts with the idea that only 250-300iu doses should be used more frequently, compared to large dosages less frequently.

I feel like I have formed an opinion on the best way to use HCG, but I'm not certain of the right way to use it if you haven't been conscientious enough to use it from the start of the cycle.

So here's the question: if you were 8-10 weeks into a 16 week cycle, how would you begin to add (and even continue to use?) HCG?

Thanks in advance.


bd

 

[nickman...]

I am wondering the same thing....

 

[natabolic]

well..

IF i dont use from the beginning of the cycle, i use the last 5-6 weeks of the cycle before pct starts., at 500 IUs 2x/w. usually the first shot is after my test shot, the second is 2-4 days later. You do not want to run into pct, as it will trick your body into not producing natural LH (as hcg is synthetic LH, basically).

so id do the following:

week 12: hcg @ 500 IUs 2x/w, with an AI
week 13: hcg @ 500 IUs 2x/w, with an AI
week 14: hcg @ 500 IUs 2x/w, with an AI
week 15: hcg @ 500 IUs 2x/w, with an AI
week 16: hcg @ 500 IUs 2x/w, with an AI (This week is the last shot of test, then 2 weeks later, pct)
week 17: hcg @ 500 IUs 2x/w, with an AI
week 18: nothing, except maybe your AI.
week 19: PCT (nolva, or clomid), personally i still run the AI at this point., but only for the first week of pct.

Anyway, thats how i do things. some others may have different thoughts.

 

[bigguns078]

Natabolic's solution is sound.. Or you can tell your friend to use 5000IU every 4 weeks.. so that would be week 8, 12, and 16..

 

[bd1]

Thanks for the info, Natabolic. Seems thought out and sound.

With regard to the Aromatase Inhibitor that you added to the equation - any particular one you'd recommend (with dosage)? I'm assuming one of the research companies will have something that will work.

bd

 

[Researchstop]

I'll just assume he's using Aromasin since that's best AI.

Yes, you're right. There are several ways to use HCG and no one way is better than another. Just different. The low dose twice a week has been used with great success since about 2003. It's not my choice, but it'll work fine.
I prefer using 1000iu/day 5-7 days in a row mid-cycle. Then it should be used again post cycle that same way during the last week of the cycle. Then after 2 weeks begin clomid, DO NOT USE NOLVA, for 2-3 weeks at 50mg/day. All the while using your Aromasin.
You can use HCG before your AS clears at the end of your cycle but Clomid only works when there is no AS present. That's why you run it like that.

The truth is that you're only using the HCG during the cycle to make your testes blow back up again. It serves no other function until you're ready to come off and you want to jump start your testes for your PCT.

 

[bd1]

Researchstop - why no Nolva? Simply because he'd be using the Aromasin?

I have never been a big fan of Clomid, so I advised against its use. It makes me break out, I get irritable, and I'm not sure of it's efficacy. Your thoughts?

 

[bd1]

ResearchStop - funny, I just read that thread. Good info in there for sure.

I'm definitely going to use this for my next cycle for sure, but I'll start the HCG at the beginning.

So here's what I'm going to relay to my buddy for his current situation:

week 12: hcg @ 500 IUs 2x/w, with Aromasin at 12.5mg/day
week 13: hcg @ 500 IUs 2x/w, with Aromasin at 12.5mg/day
week 14: hcg @ 500 IUs 2x/w, with Aromasin at 12.5mg/day
week 15: hcg @ 500 IUs 2x/w, with Aromasin at 12.5mg/day
week 16: hcg @ 500 IUs 2x/w, with Aromasin at 12.5mg/day - This week is the last shot of AAS
week 17: Aromasin at 12.5mg/day
week 18: Aromasin at 12.5mg/day
week 19: Clomid at 50mg EOD or E3D, Aromasin at 12.5mg/day
week 20: Clomid at 50mg EOD or E3D, Aromasin at 12.5mg/day
week 21: Clomid at 50mg EOD or E3D, Aromasin at 12.5mg/day

Sound like a good plan?

bd

 

[Researchstop]

Yes, that's fine

 

[nickman...]

I'll just assume he's using Aromasin since that's best AI.

Yes, you're right. There are several ways to use HCG and no one way is better than another. Just different. The low dose twice a week has been used with great success since about 2003. It's not my choice, but it'll work fine.
I prefer using 1000iu/day 5-7 days in a row mid-cycle. Then it should be used again post cycle that same way during the last week of the cycle. Then after 2 weeks begin clomid, DO NOT USE NOLVA, for 2-3 weeks at 50mg/day. All the while using your Aromasin.
You can use HCG before your AS clears at the end of your cycle but Clomid only works when there is no AS present. That's why you run it like that.

The truth is that you're only using the HCG during the cycle to make your testes blow back up again. It serves no other function until you're ready to come off and you want to jump start your testes for your PCT.

Researchstop I have 1 ? for you....

Should clomid be ran 1 weak longer then the AI(aromasin) so that there won't be any rebound?

Something like this: PCT-

weak 1: clomid @ 50mgs ED/aromasin @ 12.5-25mgs ED.
weak 2: clomid @ 50mgd ED/aromasin @ 12.5-25mgs ED.
weak 3: clomid @ 50mgs ED/aromasin @ 12.5-25mgs ED.
weak 4: clomid @ 25 mgs ED.

 

[Newman]

Having never used HCG myself, I did some research and I found many conflicting ways to use it.

The conflicting advice is a result of varying levels of study on the part of the advisors.



Some say to do it during the cycle in small doses (250iu) about 2-3 times/week - this minimized potential estrogen related sides from higher dosages.

IIRC, the 1/2 life of HCG is something like 2.5 or 3.5 days, that's why we keep seeing advice to use it E3D or 2 times per week.

I'm not sure that avoiding estrogen related sides is a very strong concern because although HCG artificially stimulates natty test production, unless we have a formula for calculating approximately how much natty test is produced per IU of HCG, then we have no way of knowing whether there's any significant concern or not. If anyone here cares to dig up some formula for caculating extra natty test produced by known quantities of HCG, then at least we'd have a starting point for reverse engineering how much extra AI we'd need to counter the extra aromatization risk.

Personally, I think a more valid motive for using smaller doses of HCG would be to avoid beating the guts out of out HPTA from sudden huge hormonal changes imposed by sudden huge doses of AAS & ancilliary aids. Tapered doses of powerful medicines are generally more tollerable than sudden huge doses. It would be nice if younger AAS using BBers could avoid NEEDING TRT later on in life...



Others say to do it once a month and do 1000iu 3x over the course of a week. Still others say to use it post-cycle with Clomid and Nolva, but I've read conflicting info on this, saying that it would actually hurt you in this method.

Are you saying they recomended one week per month at 1000IU 3 times per week?





I also found info on using HCG to "save" yourself if you didn't use it from the onset, by doing large doses to make up for lack of use, then following up with smaller doses in the last weeks of the cycle, but this conflicts with the idea that only 250-300iu doses should be used more frequently, compared to large dosages less frequently.

I would like to read that. Got a link?



So here's the question: if you were 8-10 weeks into a 16 week cycle, how would you begin to add (and even continue to use?) HCG?

Week 10
1st dose 500IU
2nd dose 1000IU

Week 11
1st dose 1500IU
2nd dose 1500IU

Week 12
1st dose 1000IU
2nd dose 1000IU

Week 13
1st dose 500IU
2nd dose 500IU

Week 14
1st dose 500 IU
2nd dose 500 IU

Week 15
1st dose 500 IU
2nd dose 500 IU

Week 16
1st dose 1000IU
2nd dose 1500IU

I know that leaves a drop off of 1500IUs down to suddenly cold turkey at 0IUs, but that's the way "the experts" seem to recomend it lately.

In the old days, AAS using BBers used to use a tapering protocol because gradual changes in dosage was usually the only tool they had to avoid a total abrupt endocrine crash. Prisoner 22 from a Canadian board advises against HCG & has developed a much smoother PCT tapering protocol than the primitive one used in the old days of AAS. Basically, he adds a 4-6 week cleaning out period where the BBer stays "on" at a TRT level maintenance dose of 100mg test per week. That way the bro avoids a crash while all the metabolites of the higher AAS cycle doses clear his system before tapering down from 100mg to 0mg in 25mg increments.

I would think that a similar "ramping up" & tapering down AAS strategy along with similarly structured HCG dose regimen AND the 4-6 week cleaning out period would be the ultimate gentleness on our HPTA & endocrine system in general

I hope this made sense. If not I'll try to re-phrase later 4 ya.

 

[nickman...]

bump 4 my ?....

 

[BigTex]

I'm usually pretty good dispensing a little advice here and there, but a buddy of mine, who is about 8 maybe 10 weeks into an EQ/Stan cycle asked me about HCG yesterday and I didn't know how to answer him.

Having never used HCG myself, I did some research and I found many conflicting ways to use it.

Some say to do it during the cycle in small doses (250iu) about 2-3 times/week - this minimized potential estrogen related sides from higher dosages. Others say to do it once a month and do 1000iu 3x over the course of a week. Still others say to use it post-cycle with Clomid and Nolva, but I've read conflicting info on this, saying that it would actually hurt you in this method.

I also found info on using HCG to "save" yourself if you didn't use it from the onset, by doing large doses to make up for lack of use, then following up with smaller doses in the last weeks of the cycle, but this conflicts with the idea that only 250-300iu doses should be used more frequently, compared to large dosages less frequently.

I feel like I have formed an opinion on the best way to use HCG, but I'm not certain of the right way to use it if you haven't been conscientious enough to use it from the start of the cycle.

So here's the question: if you were 8-10 weeks into a 16 week cycle, how would you begin to add (and even continue to use?) HCG?

Thanks in advance.


bd

We just had this discussion in the "Peptides" section and 250iu/wk throughout the cycle was suggested.

 

[Researchstop]

I'm not sure that avoiding estrogen related sides is a very strong concern because although HCG artificially stimulates natty test production, unless we have a formula for calculating approximately how much natty test is produced per IU of HCG, then we have no way of knowing whether there's any significant concern or not. If anyone here cares to dig up some formula for caculating extra natty test produced by known quantities of HCG, then at least we'd have a starting point for reverse engineering how much extra AI we'd need to counter the extra aromatization risk.

None. If you're on cycle, HCG will not make you produce natural Test. HCG by itself can cause gyno. I agree, it's not a concern usually because it's so weak.

 

[nickman...]

thanx....

No, because there won't be any. Exemestane is a suicidal inhibitor. It attaches to the aromatase and kills them. So they will just gradually be replaced.
You should actually run the AI longer because it will help hold up your natural Test levels.

Thank you researchstop, that's what i've heard before....

 

[Newman]

None. If you're on cycle, HCG will not make you produce natural Test. HCG by itself can cause gyno. I agree, it's not a concern usually because it's so weak.

Everything I've read about HCG says that it stimulates the testes to function despite abnormally high levels of exogenous test.

I may have been misinformed.

Do you have any links to any research proving that HCG doesn't stimulate the testes to produce natty test during a cycle?

Don't tell me that exogenous test shuts down the testes, I already know that.

I thought that the testes read HCG as FSH & LH & this causes them to function regardless of the level of exogenous test.

I'm not trying to argue with you.

If I'm wrong, please correct me with supporting references.

 

[speed]

wahts the most hcg you can take at a time without hurting natural lh production, dave palumbo says 2000 iu 2x a week,

 

[Conciliator]

so if you're using a progestin like deca or tren in your cycle it will make the side effects like gyno more likely.

This is an excellent example of people making foolish extrapolations, from the effect of nolva on endometrial tissue in women to its effect on breast tissue in men. Hint: nolva has differential effects depending on the tissue.

Researchstop demonstrated in this thread that he didn't really know what he was talking about. And now, he's demonstrating that he didn't learn anything either. Maybe to top it off we can get Macro to come in here and talk again about "estrogen priming" in males, lol.

 

[Conciliator]

None. If you're on cycle, HCG will not make you produce natural Test.

Yes, it will.

Take for example this study, in which they gave 200mg/wk of test E along with different doses of hCG every other day. 200mg/wk is enough for maximal suppression. The groups receiving higher doses of hCG had greater intratesticular testosterone levels AND higher serum testosterone levels due to the added natural testosterone production.

 

[Conciliator]

so if you're using a progestin like deca or tren in your cycle it will make the side effects like gyno more likely.

In case people don't want to follow the link two posts back, here's the explanation I posted there.

Basically, we get the article by Eric M. Potratz on the "Dark Side" of Clomid and Nolva. He has a section where he talks about "Increased susceptibility to gyno" based on research in endometrial tissue in women. His ability to interpret research was lacking that day. Now we have parrots like Researchstop going around the internet telling people that "if you're using a progestin like deca or tren in your cycle it will make the side effects like gyno more likely." It's ridiculous. That's not supported by the research, nor by simple reasoning.

The progesterone receptor is synthesized in response to estrogen, so in tissues where tamoxifen exerts a weak estrogenic effect upregulation of the progesterone receptor would be expected. That includes the endometrium, which is a tissue that's highly sensitive to estrogen. It's no surprise that several studies have found that tamoxifen upregulates the progesterone receptor in the endometrium. But what about in mammary glands, where tamoxifen is an estrogen receptor antagonist? When tamoxifen is administered to treat breast cancer, there is not upregulation, but a downregulation of both the estrogen and progesterone receptors (at least for a good while until the cancers become resistant).