Help getting off stims : ideas?

[whacked]

Whether it's actually causing the issue or not, you're now mentally wrestling with the intake of the supplements.
If you're taking high intensity stimulants then just switch to something with less punch. A couple cups of coffee in the morning and as much green tea as you "need" during the day. Slowly reduce those amounts if you want.

Also, if you are on a low carb diet of any kind. It's very possible that your fatigue is from lack of salt. Anytime I've gone low carb(<.75g/lb) and do not keep my salt intake in the 7-10g range(bodyweight and activity specific), I'll load caffeine with no help, realize my salt is low and a teaspoon of salt in water feels like a stimulant.

Good advice and that’s the current plan - in addition to the nootropics as others have shared.

I’m low carb or strict keto for years and so add Redmans sea salt daily. My labs (minerals/electrolytes) are always fine as well. Thank you

 

[alfresco]

Thanks fellas.
Slow and steady will be the deal.
This is gonna SUCK
lol

Embrace the SUCK.

Mindfulness meditation.

Very very slow taper.

You will be fine.

 

[alfresco]

Dependence after years is going to take a lot longer to wean than a few days. I’d go slow with a taper. Cold turkey and you’re going to feel 10x shittier.

It won’t be easy but it’ll be worth it. I came off rx benzos after 13yrs and couldn’t be more happy I did.

Just to add some perspective.

What kind of benzodiazepines, what dosage, and how long was your taper.

Good to hear you got off. Much respect. They are not for everybody.

 

[adam2433]

Clonazepam started by the VA in 2008 at 1mg daily for sleep up to 2mg daily as needed which really turned into 2-4mg a day some days and 0-1mg in between with no real adverse effects because of the long half life of klonopin. I was either not feeling any effect aside from keeping withdrawal at bay or getting stoned. It was no good.

A psychiatrist laughed and told me I’d be dependent on it for life. It took 6 months or so. I started at 1.5mg daily before bed for 3 weeks and weaned by 1/2mg at a time. I had multiple set backs going from 1~>0.5 and had to do 0.75mg a while. Falling asleep was hard and I had one episode post workout where I felt withdrawal bad and feared I might pass out or seize so I took extra then.

May 16 was my last time. I have had no cravings or issues since then. I’d advise extreme caution tapering benzos to anyone. Alcohol and benzo withdrawal can kill someone. Where as you will get (much) sicker feeling from narc/stim withdrawal but it is not going to cause seizures or neuro symptoms like the others. I did have some period I felt my skin crawl with anxiety and was borderline panicking but I have a very supportive wife and a great therapist who gave me some coping skills/ideas for when it happened.

I wasn’t a nurse in 2008 when I was prescribed by the VA. If I was I never would’ve agreed to take it. I’d advise other methods of coping and if pharmaceuticals are chosen others options such as Trazadone or Wellbutrin that are not habit forming.

 

[jcc80]

Rhodiola rosea and panax ginseng leaf extract have a nice kick and won't get you further burnt out (they're not stims). Nootropics Depot has quality stuff. They should help a lot during the taper.

 

[Tomgrass]

Thanks. Any good ones you can recommend?

Check : the preworkout thread - lot of great info there

 

[LK3]

you guys over complicate the SHIT out of things!
sometimes i do a lot of coke.
then i stop.
how hard was that?
wtf

 

[jeroendebleser]

you guys over complicate the SHIT out of things!
sometimes i do a lot of coke.
then i stop.
how hard was that?
wtf

True. Besides, he's really not on high dosages of harsh stimulants. If he were on 100 mg or more of Amphetamine per day I would taper him off yes but for this?

Just tough it out for a few days (pick a weekend so you don't have to work) and be done with it.

 

[adam2433]

“Just stop”. Wow why haven’t addicts or therapists or physicians thought of this approach before?!

Or maybe drugs effect everyone differently. I’d have thought of all places PM would have a good understanding of that. What’s low to others may not be low to him. Besides, whatever dose is on it’s been 20 to 25 years. There’s some level of dependence after two decades of use. God forbid someone asks for help and plays it safe…

 

[whacked]

“Just stop”. Wow why haven’t addicts or therapists or physicians thought of this approach before?!

Or maybe drugs effect everyone differently. I’d have thought of all places PM would have a good understanding of that. What’s low to others may not be low to him. Besides, whatever dose is on it’s been 20 to 25 years. There’s some level of dependence after two decades of use. God forbid someone asks for help and plays it safe…

Yup yup

DMAA and DMHA are NOT mild stims (neither are all the other exotic stims and blends now banned or mysteriously no longer in these cocktails); coupled w the fact it’s been 20-25 straight years of DAILY dosing if these.

The only saving grace is that I only used these once/day (but remember, the half life is 4-6-?? hours).

I will be ok just not looking forward to the withdrawal and lack of euphoria and energy. lol

 

[qbkilla]

“Just stop”. Wow why haven’t addicts or therapists or physicians thought of this approach before?!

Or maybe drugs effect everyone differently. I’d have thought of all places PM would have a good understanding of that. What’s low to others may not be low to him. Besides, whatever dose is on it’s been 20 to 25 years. There’s some level of dependence after two decades of use. God forbid someone asks for help and plays it safe…

I've done it with caffeine when I had a horrible BP reading. I've heard of many people quitting drinking or smoking cold turkey. Sure now days we are socially conditioned " addiction is a disease people have no choice" when they do have a choice. How successful are these rehab places if people keep going in and out? I'd say the biggest addiction is food addiction, look at obesity rates.

 

[adam2433]

I've done it with caffeine when I had a horrible BP reading. I've heard of many people quitting drinking or smoking cold turkey. Sure now days we are socially conditioned " addiction is a disease people have no choice" when they do have a choice. How successful are these rehab places if people keep going in and out? I'd say the biggest addiction is food addiction, look at obesity rates.

I’m not debating what addiction is. I’m saying just quitting isn’t that easy especially quitting alcohol vs nicotine/caffeine cold turkey which is two totally different animals… one can be lethal the other annoying… more than just some transient HTN or anxiety.

The rehabs aren’t successful. Which kind of proves the point of how difficult quitting is. But yes I’d agree food is definitely our biggest addiction in America.

 

[RepZZ]

You have been on too long and I recommend Out Patient rehab as first step. If that does not work, then in-patient rehab
I have seen great out out patient services that do a great job. Get a Narcotics sponsor and do the program.

 

[qbkilla]

I’m not debating what addiction is. I’m saying just quitting isn’t that easy especially quitting alcohol vs nicotine/caffeine cold turkey which is two totally different animals… one can be lethal the other annoying… more than just some transient HTN or anxiety.

The rehabs aren’t successful. Which kind of proves the point of how difficult quitting is. But yes I’d agree food is definitely our biggest addiction in America.

Agree with this mostly. Overall I'd say strong will power is better than anything. Some people have the willpower to just quit, while others can't. Just like some people have the will power to diet to 6 percent and some can get to 9 percent and say that's lean enough for me, diet finished!

And not to get off topic but food is definitely addicting. We give alot of attention to people who are addicted to substance's and sympathy but fat people are looked at differently. We need food to survive so I feel like it's easy to get addicted but substances we know they are bad yet choose to take them anyway and only then can addiction occour. Just ironic how we view drug addiction one way and obesity another way, a pet peeve of Mine.

 

[totalrecomp]

I would switch to this to start with:
Focus XT


Stack with these:



Once you are ready to get off the caffeine as well Focus XT makes a caffeine free version as well.

 

[whacked]

I would switch to this to start with:
Focus XT
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Stack with these:
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Once you are ready to get off the caffeine as well Focus XT makes a caffeine free version as well.

Awesome. Thanks man

 

[adam2433]

Agree with this mostly. Overall I'd say strong will power is better than anything. Some people have the willpower to just quit, while others can't. Just like some people have the will power to diet to 6 percent and some can get to 9 percent and say that's lean enough for me, diet finished!

And not to get off topic but food is definitely addicting. We give alot of attention to people who are addicted to substance's and sympathy but fat people are looked at differently. We need food to survive so I feel like it's easy to get addicted but substances we know they are bad yet choose to take them anyway and only then can addiction occour. Just ironic how we view drug addiction one way and obesity another way, a pet peeve of Mine.

I agree with everything about the food. I can’t stand the acceptance/sympathy of obesity. Lululemon started advertising their clothing in plus sized models so overweight women can better visualize how it would look on them. That’s insane to me lol. It’s yoga clothing and high quality/luxury! They shouldn’t even make plus sizes! What 225lb girl is doing yoga?! It takes away from me wanting to buy my wife stuff when a size 16 is modeling the outfit online.

As for the will power… again, I’d agree for opiates or nicotine or whatever. But neuro depressants no only because you can have will power but when you enter status epileptic us and get brain damage because you didn’t taper or quit cold turkey that will power will have ruined your life. Better to do it slow and steady and not die vs be stubborn… words of experience from someone who went 8 days with no benzo being stubborn saying “I got this” and the feeling of an impending seizure and the lights fading to black made me wish otherwise. And I should no better having taken care of those patients before.

Regardless, anyone who admits they have an addiction/dependence and quits using whatever method… good for you.

 

[whacked]

Day 2 all

Regimen:

200mg caffeine when I wake up at 4:30am (plus adrenal gland)

150 mg caffeine from green tea
+ 100 mg theacrine at 6am pre-w/o

Will do this for 1-2 weeks. Then wean down a bit more at time point

Goal is 100-200mg upon waking and that’s it

2 days in - not horrible. Workout sucked though lol.

 

[LK3]

“Just stop”. Wow why haven’t addicts or therapists or physicians thought of this approach before?!

Or maybe drugs effect everyone differently. I’d have thought of all places PM would have a good understanding of that. What’s low to others may not be low to him. Besides, whatever dose is on it’s been 20 to 25 years. There’s some level of dependence after two decades of use. God forbid someone asks for help and plays it safe…

by and large therapists are like mental prostitutes, on top of that they basically make money from the suffering of others. it behoves them that our society function on these sort of myths.

what i say comes from a loving place with lots of experiecne behind it.
playing it safe would be not taking a totally unneccassary and boring drug every day for 20 years in the first place.

from most perspectives i abuse every substance and activity known to man and i know 100% that in the times when i am weak and continune doing things that are not in my best interest when i want to stop, that it is purely due to my own choice to be weakness in that moment, choosing not to stop.

when you want to do something you do. its basically just that simple.

 

[LK3]

True. Besides, he's really not on high dosages of harsh stimulants. If he were on 100 mg or more of Amphetamine per day I would taper him off yes but for this?

Just tough it out for a few days (pick a weekend so you don't have to work) and be done with it.

switching one drug for another can make it easier for sure. but in this case like you point out its a small dose of very ehh substance- purely mental. stims are shitty for working out anyways.