Holding muscle beyond your natural limits?

[shoestring]

If you have trained for years & maxed out for natural can anything much beyond that be kept without help? Seems like it eventually goes away after a while of natural training. Is it all diet related? How does one retain gains (beyond natural) while remaining lean? Or is the only way to keep it on by using suppliments frequently? This may seem like a dumb question to some, but it remains an enigma to others.

 

[tkav1980]

the one thing im sure everyone will tell you will help is HGH. from what ive seen its permagains, as long as you keep working hard and eating right.

 

[jay_dub]

I'd be interested in some input on this as well.

 

[maldorf]

My feeling is that it cannot be kept indefinintely unless you supplement with AAS. I know of a national level competitor that says if he takes 500 mg/wk total he is able to maintain what he has but anything more and he begins to put on mass. This past year he dropped down from being a heavy weight to a light heavy and was having problems getting too big if he used more than the 500 mg/wk. So it would seem that you can maintain what you have on a lower dose than what you took to get there, but it is a lifetime commitment. JMO

 

[shoestring]

Thanks for the input so far guys. Hope some more people will chime in here.

 

[Krom]

I have a friend who is maxed out. Off cycle he's normally 180 (he's 5'3 and very lean) After doing HGH he's now 190 off cycle.

 

[MightyJohn]

I was always wondering a way to do this myself...I've managed to bring My permanent weight up about 20lbs...& would love to do another 15-20 & make that My permanent natural weight...

 

[Moen]

Beyond natural says so itself, the reason you are able to carry that muscle mass is related to the level of hormones in your system so yes you will shrink back to your natural size no matter how good you eat or how hard you train.

That's why I'm with Dad on this one: if you dont plan on competing and make juicing a fulltime commitment for the next x(x) years just dont do it.

The constant yoyoyo-ing on the traditional 'on for 12 weeks-off for 12 weeks' not only is redicilous cosmetically but also costs a lot of money and health for basically nothing.

Ofcourse this is just my opinion and still your own choice to make.

 

[Phidias]

That's why I'm with Dad on this one: if you dont plan on competing and make juicing a fulltime commitment for the next x(x) years just dont do it.

The constant yoyoyo-ing on the traditional 'on for 12 weeks-off for 12 weeks' not only is redicilous cosmetically but also costs a lot of money and health for basically nothing.

SO WISE ADVICE

Plus what does "max out" really mean? For most guys, seeing no more results after the initial beginner stage (going from zero muscle stimulation to a decent workout program that will necessarily bring "some" results) is a sign that they must juice

The truth is if you've trained hard enough (but not "strained" to quote Lee Haney), eat the right foods in the right amounts and rest properly for a few years but still don't get any good results, YOUR GENETICS SUCK.

And in this case, don't fool yourself thinking you'll look like Ronnie if you hit the sauce... even for 15 years straight. Much better idea focusing on something else than BB.

 

[celtic-devil]

Eventually, you will shrink back to your normal size....although peptides can help preserve some size, stay lean and stay a bit above your natural max, you will not be as big as when you were juiced.

Another issue is, how long it will take for you to shrink back to your normal size. Well, the longer you have held all that extra muscle then the more time it will take for you to lose it. The longer you hold extra muscle, the more permanenetly the muscle facia stretches. That is one of the reasons I prefer longer cycles over shorter ones. Longer cycles = you have bigger muscles for longer = the facia stretches more effectively and more permanenetly. (albeit, not totally permanent I think). Size gains are easier to maintain.

After a short cycle you will shrink much quicker. The facia, however, takes much longer to return to its previous size when it has been stretched for a longer period.

In short, the amount of time you have held the extra size will be an important factor in how long it will take you to return to normal.

 

[Massive G]

See this is where I think a lot of confusion lies, and those with years of experience in the game aren't gonna shrink up like raisins after they stop the juice.
Unless someone is mega dosing roids and stops the drugs training and eating of course they will shrink.
Also if guys blow up 30 lbs on a cycles and then come down no amount of PCT or HGH will preserve that. HGH does help as does bridging with lo doses.
BUT true tissue gains take time on or off the juice a guy training ten years slowly taking he weight up to different set points will not lose muscle rapidly when he comes down. As Dante and other long term lifters have said before, get you weight up and hold it at a set point for a few weeks or months then blast up again slowly going up to 220 then 240 then 260 over several years that MASS is there and ain't going anywhere.
I know several long term comp that because of Raw Deal have been determined it isn't worth it to risk anymore have stopped the cylces and got their hormonal profiles in line and are training hard and eating very well and are down less than 10% in their weight. If you know how to build muscle and have been consistent in training and it then steroids or no steroids you will maintain a lot of the muscle you have gained.
I know people can't see this because it requires time and experience, and I have seen many guys who trained inconsistently over the last 5 years and eat wrong shrink like raisins because they all are juice. Eating at Mcdonalds and having a protein shake isn't gonna lead to permanent mass gains training hapahazardly and juicing hard in periods.

 

[jay_dub]

The constant yoyoyo-ing on the traditional 'on for 12 weeks-off for 12 weeks' not only is redicilous cosmetically but also costs a lot of money and health for basically nothing.

Ofcourse this is just my opinion and still your own choice to make.

I'm still new to everything, with 2 cycles under my belt, and I've stuck to the time on=time off rule. You're saying this is wasting time and money, how would you recommend doing it?

 

[maldorf]

What it comes down to really is, if you want to even maintain the mass you have built up over cycling through the years you are going to have to at the least cruise on a low dose in between your cycles. This of course will mean that you have supressed your own natural test production and will become reliant on exogenous test for a long long time. Many are saying that you should consider this when using AAS. When you finally come off of everyting you will again return to your natural set point for bodyweight, or even worse lose more becuase your own natural test is shut down.

 

[shoestring]

What it comes down to really is, if you want to even maintain the mass you have built up over cycling through the years you are going to have to at the least cruise on a low dose in between your cycles. This of course will mean that you have supressed your own natural test production and will become reliant on exogenous test for a long long time. Many are saying that you should consider this when using AAS. When you finally come off of everyting you will again return to your natural set point for bodyweight, or even worse lose more becuase your own natural test is shut down.

I think this is prolly the sad truth . I waited till 38 to use aas. I had well over 20 yrs. of natural training behind me. In this time I have only been out of the gym for a couple wks at max. I graduated High school at 150lbs & 3 years later I was a fairly lean 205 at 5'10". I have never really been able to gain any more muscle over all these years. I have improved my muscle but have always maxed out around here. I then fluctuat in this area. If I wanted to I could put on "weight" & gain some more muscle, but I would also be a total fat ass imo & I want to look lean. So between 38-40 I did 2 very low dose test only cycles & made great gains. But it seems within a year or so I end up back where I started. My natural test levels are still pretty high too. If I would eat a ton & lift heavy all the time I am sure I could hold more muscle , but again that is not pleasing look. I thought that as long as you weren't way above your natural potential it would be easy to keep the gains from aas, but it is not imo. I always tell people if they are gonna use aas wait for several yrs to reach your natural potential. But in reallity people well under there natural potential are probobly the only ones who could make permanent gains from aas usage. But since they do not know how to build muscle without help, they would loose it all too. This is all very depressing lol.. On the other hand I am sure I could make great progress 12 on 12 off, but at 40 with kids this is probably not a good idea from a health standpoint. Even 2 modest cycles a year would prolly be ok for me, but knowing it is only temporary makes me question the whole thing. All I want is to be a ripped 225 at 5'10 , thats not that big. Maybe I need to try some Cell-Tech or maybe Leukick LMAO

 

[celtic-devil]

I personally believe there really are no set rules when it comes to cycling.

The best we have are guidelines. (of course, these are important for newbies especially)

But the truth is, there are no peer reviewed studies into steroid cycling so no-body can offer set rules about what does/doesnt work for someone else. Thats something you will really find out for yourself over time through the intelligent use of gear. No two people are the same.

I do agree that you need time off but as for whether time off should be equal to time on....this is a theory, as is most everything else when it comes to how to cycle gear. Some theories are more educated and have more basis than others but at the end of the day, we really dont know anything for sure.

 

[Moen]

I agree celtic

Jay: What I mean is, if you do 12 weeks on, then come off for 12 full weeks, after that 24 weeks you will obviously still be bigger than if you never did them in the first place BUT personally I really dont see the use in that kind of cycling because at the end of the 12 weeks off you still have something left but is that worth the money and the health risk? (as opposed to what you would have kept if you only went off for 4 weeks eg).

It just seems like a waste of time, money and health to go up 20 lbs, go down 15 again, go up 20 again, ....

As lame as it sounds I actually see more value in doing what levrone and to a certain degree dave pulcinella on here do, stay off (and probably dont bother training either) for 6 months, then go on for 6 and at the end of the 6 do your contest.

At least then you have a continuous curve from day 1 up untill the end of the 6 month period without having to be on for the better part of the year

 

[TooPowerful4u]

GOTTA ADD A NEW QUESTION IN HERE....

How long before your body ADJUSTS to the new weight? Im holding 240 and my arms and hands fall asleep at night (not on ANY GH). Lower back and upper back hurt if i sit up too long or am on my feet too long. Cant bend over too well either. Hams and glutes are CRAZY tight. Stretching does NOT help. Stretched 3x/day for a week and STILL tight. Shoulders very tight too.

 

[steele]

the question

i would love to hear some more personal experience. this is THE question i have been battling

 

[Iabadman]

My two cents ...........

Gear is a vicious trap .What I mean is that you will never be better than you were at your best on gear . And either you either keep using for the course of your life or except that risks you took ,and the money spent were basically a waste. Yes, you will be slightly bigger off gear for along time than you would have ever been had you just stayed at your natural peaked best .[most won't and shrink to nothing because they didn't build a maxed out natural base before touching gear] Once you mess with your hormonal pathways ,especially in your early 20s or late teens you are either asking for hrt for life or a big ego blow when you stop.

I have been clean for 11 yrs. And it is tough. I know my test levels never got back to it's prior clean days [before gear....of course I was much youger ,but it is not even close...no where near..not even a third] I can be 250 - 260 in decent shape ...if I have been consistant for a year or so [and am now .....after a very tough comeback from a horrible looking 283 after back surgery last year,god it was gross and took forever to look like me again] But in all honestly ,I am holding the same about of muscle or less than I did when I reached my genetic lean max .[which was basically 225 very lean and I hit that at 16 , I started training hard at 10 ......I pretty much was a lean 220- 230 from 16 - 23 ....then I went on and reached around 300 with in a year and a half sometimes that was pretty conditioned .....sometimes it wasn't ....lol] I have battled injury after injury over the last few years because It kills me that I won't ever be as strong as I once was . And I just tend to get stupid and push harder than I need to when my training is going well .

Gear is a tool , that should be used ,for top guys to reach there max genetic potential, or for health /anti aging.......but for most it is a trap . A mistake and a stupid risk that you will look back on in your 40s and 50s as a mistake.

Will you Keep your gains off gear through out the rest of your life ? Hell no . Ask Tom Prince or MIke Morris . They were two of the biggest strongest pound for pound guys on the planet .[both swore they would be still huge with out gear ]Now ,both are lucky to break 170 .Yes ,they have health problems .but that is what happens when you don't build a base before using gear . And I belive even if they didnt get sick and they quit they would have still got skinny.I had a friend when I was young that was my fromer training partner .He was a lean Black guy .That worked very hard in the gym and ate right .He peaked out at maybe 190[nice physique] without gear maybe alittle less ] He went on and with in a year was a hard 242 . On his small frame ,with his muscle bellies . He looked huge. His dad found out he was on . And threatened not to keep paying his bills or his way through college. He quit imediately. With in 4 months he was 167 . People thought he had AIDS ...he didnt even look like the same guy . And although he has stayed with training ,to this day.He hates it and stays at maybe 180 . Another guy I know was a teen sensation. This guy was 5'9 263 with viens in his legs and chest ,at 19 competed in his second show at 244 .He was freakishly strong too. But after getting some pub.......he realized that bbing was a joke financially and had ton of behind the scene politics involved . He quit the sport and focused himself on school instead.[ now is a successfful chemist with a PHD] but with in a few months was down to 185 with he still maintains today and is weak as hell despite staying in the gym all these years. Another guy I know was your classic skinny guy .Always a lean smaller guy with a nice frame.He worked for me and always had a huge insecurity about his size.[we have some monsters that work for me ...4 .....400 lbers and several over 300] He could workout like a madman and eat like a horse and not break 155 . He finally Did a cycle or two and broke 175 .Suddanly he is getting noticed by all the girls [ the guy was about 5'9 ,but had that nice ripped male model look] He hadn't been laided in several years . Then all the sudden he fucks like 7 girls in the first 2 months of sporting his new look. He ends up getting a girlfriend and she insists he quit using the gear. Next thing he knows he is 147 and the girl leaves him. [tragically ,he was killed in a freak accident shortly after this as well ] I could list dozens of such instances over my time in this game. I mean just countless stories like these guys.

Most of you have no reason to be using in the first place if you really looked at it objectively. And when you come off you are in for a rude awakening. I am lucky, because I had world class athlete genes. And wasnt a huge responder to gear. But I am no where near as big ,strong ,fast , or hard looking as I was on gear.[your muscle are rounder on , more vascular ,ect....you just have a different look even when in the same condition] My past personal best in size and strength continue to haunt me .And it sucks to know at 37 ,I will never be better unless i turn back to drugs. That is the reality my friends .Like it or not .It is the truth .You can train smarter , eat better , but you can't overcome chemistry .

Am I against drugs ? No,not at all When used correctly , sefely , and for the right reasons . The fact that they try to push higher and higher standards in sport ,yet control doping is a complete joke . But for joe shmoe that just wants to be the big gym in the gym or just wants look better in the bar or on the beach and stand out.There are batter ways than turning to drugs . That is a stupid trap that you won't be happy with in the end. In fact most guys that do shows shouldn't .It is not hard to see if you have genetics or not .Sadly most guys are blinded by ego and being misguided.Being big has nothing to do with being a world class athlete or bber . It is your genes that make you and allow you to get to the top .not the drugs.Drug built athletes happen ,but never last , get to the top , or end up happy ......If most athlete just tried to max out naturally ,then accessed if the really had potential to be a top tier competitoer then took the next step . Then the sport would slowly clean itself up and things would change over time. Unfoutunately ,this will never happen .Man's nature is the quick fix .To work easier ,not harder. Things will get worse not beter..........


If you really think about it .Gear is a trap plain and simple.And that is a fact .

 

[Iabadman]

And TP .....the answer to your question is usually 3 weeks to 6 months . What I mean is your body will adapt to most stress in about 3 weeks or so. But I will take at 6 months for that 240 to really mean something when you diet down and get back on stage .I tell guys you want to be pealed on stage at 225 ? Get to 270 - 275 ,hold it for 6 months to a year ,then diet down . If you did your diet right and dropped the weight slowly . You will be 225 without a doubt .too many guys say look ,I am 240 hard [but dont realize they are holding a ton of water ] i will surely be 220 next time i am on stage.....then come show time ...they end up 200 with a frown on their face.[Dante sayes the same thing.....muscle mags greg Zulak preached this forever] it takes awhile to really makes changes to your physique and the body must be pushed to grow period if you which to be a top caliber guy.