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How fat is too fat? (the offseason dilemma)

thethinker48

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How fat do you guys get during your off season, and when do you decide to pull it back? I'm always on the verge of thinking (maybe a little more calories) during off season, I can't be the only one.

There's a medium between Roman Fritz and Little Slice :)p sory not bullying).

Insulin sensitivity plays a HUGE role in muscle growth. I've noticed this tremendously by eating 100-150 grams of carbs on off days, and up to 360 grams of carbs in a 4 hour peri-workout window which has contributed tremendously to recovery (yes more so than any drug; John Meadows wasn't kidding when he said it's all about MPS vs MPS), and good insulin sensitivity.

If I beat my logbook (which is a must otherwise I'm tweaking out like a maniac until my next session), and my calories are enough where I'm recovering adequately, I really do not like looking at the scale. Just see an outline of your abs (12-14 % bf), and keep drudging away with those lift numbers. This way if I'm up 8-12 lbs in a year, and don't look like a slob, it's a good medium between looking ok, and putting on muscle. What do you guys think?
 

Elvia1023

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How fat do you guys get during your off season, and when do you decide to pull it back? I'm always on the verge of thinking (maybe a little more calories) during off season, I can't be the only one.

There's a medium between Roman Fritz and Little Slice :)p sory not bullying).

Insulin sensitivity plays a HUGE role in muscle growth. I've noticed this tremendously by eating 100-150 grams of carbs on off days, and up to 360 grams of carbs in a 4 hour peri-workout window which has contributed tremendously to recovery (yes more so than any drug; John Meadows wasn't kidding when he said it's all about MPS vs MPS), and good insulin sensitivity.

If I beat my logbook (which is a must otherwise I'm tweaking out like a maniac until my next session), and my calories are enough where I'm recovering adequately, I really do not like looking at the scale. Just see an outline of your abs (12-14 % bf), and keep drudging away with those lift numbers. This way if I'm up 8-12 lbs in a year, and don't look like a slob, it's a good medium between looking ok, and putting on muscle. What do you guys think?
It all depends upon your exact goals. Me personally I always like to stay relatively lean. Now if I wanted to compete and put on major size I would push things more but never get fat. I would establish new reset points by maintaining new mass for long periods then bump things up again. If my goal was 30 pounds it would take years. Now I want a classic physique type of look so my outlook has changed. I have basically been doing the opposite of what I used to. But for optimal mass in the long run (if that is your goal) some fat and water isn't a bad thing.

We need to see some pics of you and your exact goals to know. Post pics and let us know... Do you just want be 10 pounds heavier and just as lean? Do you want to be 10 pounds heavier but 5% bf lower? Do you want to weigh 40 pounds more without getting fat? Everything is relative to your goals.
 
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thethinker48

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It all depends upon your exact goals. Me personally I always like to stay relatively lean. Now if I wanted to compete and put on major size I would push things more but never get fat. I would establish new reset points by maintaining new mass for long periods then bump things up again. If my goal was 30 pounds it would take years. Now I want a classic physique type of look so my outlook has changed. I have basically been doing the opposite of what I used to. But for optimal mass in the long run (if that is your goal) some fat and water isn't a bad thing.

We need to see some pics of you and your exact goals to know. Post pics and let us know... Do you just want be 10 pounds heavier and just as lean? Do you want to be 10 pounds heavier but 5% bf lower? Do you want to weigh 40 pounds more without getting fat? Everything is relative to your goals.
Goal is to get as big as possible while not dying :)

Here's me at my fattest before I decided to pull back a bit, and did a cruise/little mini diet.

I honestly felt ok being this fat; lifts progressed and I put on good muscle as well, slin sensitivity wasn't bad as pumps were good. Little bloated from the MK as well :)


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thethinker48

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Front chub [emoji4] 20170808_151115.jpg

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little slice

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sweet tummy chub bro :headbang:
 

xman280

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probably " Lee Priest fat' or "Trey Brewer fat" is too fat for a competitive builder, but in all fairness Lee is not that fat in that pic - some photoshop, water retention, no tan, short men tend to gain on the handles, but Trey i sfat, he has a lot of loose skin....
 

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Elvia1023

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Front chub [emoji4]View attachment 94583

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You look good... lot's of muscle. It's hard to give recommendations without really knowing details such as what drugs you were on (doses) and the length you were on them. How much you had gained in those pics and how long it took etc. Although lookign at the pics you ate gtg and could push things further. I guess it all depends just how much you want to push things.

So many variables but if you wanted to cruise on trt you could do that but utilize things that don't effect sex hormones such as mk-677, hgh, lr3 etc. Now if health is number 1 priority you just cruise on trt and 2iu hgh for example. Then you maintain the best you can and ramp things up again.

However say you have been on 6 weeks you could push things longer and gain more size. This is long term and your blood work and views on health should dictate just how long you cruise and how long you blast. Plus as you know you can still bulk on trt and gain lot's of good size.

If I were you with your goals I would be eating more and more regardless of drug intake right now. If you need a deload from training take it but I would be jumping back on to progressive training and eating and going for it. You are not fat in those pics and could easily add more quality weight but again all the above are factors.

I am not sure if you take anything for insulin sensitivity but that can easily be manipulated with diet and supplementation.

What are your plans for the next few months? Nutrition? Cruise/Blast? Training heavy?

I just realized you have already pulled back a bit so I am guessing it will be full steam ahead from now on? I would do everything (training, diet and drugs) in cycles over the long period. Those pics are far from fat so again you could even go a little further if things are controlled. Good luck with everything.
 

Musclegeek79

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i dont care to get fat because DNP would make me lean af in 2 weeks after i end my bulking cycle.
 

bieberhole69

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Really depends on YOU and where YOU are ok with being.

Pertinent questions:

Have you dieted down to super-lean before? If so, do you know how approximately how many pounds that takes from where you're at now? How you looked before you dieted down the last time and how many pounds away that was? Do you have any idea how much muscle you'll lose along the way for said amount of pounds?

For me, my maximum allowable fatboy status is a comfortable 30-40lbs from stage-ready. I can diet down from here to stage ready in ~9-16 weeks depending on how hard I want to go, what I want to do, etc (in other words, I don't sweat being "fat"). I have pictures of my fattest 3x now before dieting down and can answer all these questions. I can use these pictures I have to assess against my current self and gauge where I'm at v.s. where I'm comfortable with being at. Then I can get an idea of how many pounds I'd have to lose in the current condition, and where that'd place me--I mention this last one, because ultimately it dictates whether or not I need to do a mini-cut or pull back a little before trying to pack on more (I went 3 years inbetween the last diet and this one, and kept myself near the acceptable limit the whole time. Put on about 8lbs a year by gauging myself this way...but for ME and MY metabolism, I know I have to push the scale and hold it for prolonged periods to make any serious gains. 20-25lbs up and then dieting down again for ME would result in 2-3lbs stage weight gain. Not worth it, IMO).

Or you could just do the (reasonable) powerlifter method: if you're getting dropfat (hanging belly), it's time to diet. I've never done this method and never want to, but done right you'd hopefully have made some SERIOUS gains and spend an extended-diet making sure not to lose them.

Edit: saw Elvia's post. What caused my last diet was: fasting glucose of 104, systolic BP up 30pts over healthy as hell, and knee pain from concrete + heaviest weight ever. So of course, as he said, take your health into account if you give a shit--and you should if you're seeking longevity, which is where the best gains in bodybuilding are made.

You can check what I considered acceptable in Doggcrapp's "absolutely love stuff like this" towards the very end of the thread.
 
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thethinker48

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You look good... lot's of muscle. It's hard to give recommendations without really knowing details such as what drugs you were on (doses) and the length you were on them. How much you had gained in those pics and how long it took etc. Although lookign at the pics you ate gtg and could push things further. I guess it all depends just how much you want to push things.

So many variables but if you wanted to cruise on trt you could do that but utilize things that don't effect sex hormones such as mk-677, hgh, lr3 etc. Now if health is number 1 priority you just cruise on trt and 2iu hgh for example. Then you maintain the best you can and ramp things up again.

However say you have been on 6 weeks you could push things longer and gain more size. This is long term and your blood work and views on health should dictate just how long you cruise and how long you blast. Plus as you know you can still bulk on trt and gain lot's of good size.

If I were you with your goals I would be eating more and more regardless of drug intake right now. If you need a deload from training take it but I would be jumping back on to progressive training and eating and going for it. You are not fat in those pics and could easily add more quality weight but again all the above are factors.

I am not sure if you take anything for insulin sensitivity but that can easily be manipulated with diet and supplementation.

What are your plans for the next few months? Nutrition? Cruise/Blast? Training heavy?

I just realized you have already pulled back a bit so I am guessing it will be full steam ahead from now on? I would do everything (training, diet and drugs) in cycles over the long period. Those pics are far from fat so again you could even go a little further if things are controlled. Good luck with everything.
Thanks for the detailed response Elvia

Bloods look good. I'm 2 weeks into my current blast (which will probably last 6 weeks total depending on when my CNS craps out from training), slowly adding food every week. Always the dilemma of how much to drive bodyweight up.

Will start GH back up again at 4 ius so that'll help eat more food, and stay a bit leaner too.

I'm curious to hear how you guys approach this, or what you've seen works well for others.

Guys like John Meadows stay VERY lean year round, but John's smart and not driving up bodyweight at his age, nor making big jumps in stage weight.

Guys like Jordan Peters advises staying within a range of leanness but driving up bodyweight quite a bit.

Guys like Dusty Hanshaw built that brickton of a house eating his way to 300 lbs; dude had like a 40 lb jump in stage weight in 1 year.

Many ways to skin a cat for many individual physiologies it seems :)
 

thethinker48

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Really depends on YOU and where YOU are ok with being.

Pertinent questions:

Have you dieted down to super-lean before? If so, do you know how approximately how many pounds that takes from where you're at now? How you looked before you dieted down the last time and how many pounds away that was? Do you have any idea how much muscle you'll lose along the way for said amount of pounds?

For me, my maximum allowable fatboy status is a comfortable 30-40lbs from stage-ready. I can diet down from here to stage ready in ~9-16 weeks depending on how hard I want to go, what I want to do, etc (in other words, I don't sweat being "fat"). I have pictures of my fattest 3x now before dieting down and can answer all these questions. I can use these pictures I have to assess against my current self and gauge where I'm at v.s. where I'm comfortable with being at. Then I can get an idea of how many pounds I'd have to lose in the current condition, and where that'd place me--I mention this last one, because ultimately it dictates whether or not I need to do a mini-cut or pull back a little before trying to pack on more (I went 3 years inbetween the last diet and this one, and kept myself near the acceptable limit the whole time. Put on about 8lbs a year by gauging myself this way...but for ME and MY metabolism, I know I have to push the scale and hold it for prolonged periods to make any serious gains. 20-25lbs up and then dieting down again for ME would result in 2-3lbs stage weight gain. Not worth it, IMO).

Or you could just do the (reasonable) powerlifter method: if you're getting dropfat (hanging belly), it's time to diet. I've never done this method and never want to, but done right you'd hopefully have made some SERIOUS gains and spend an extended-diet making sure not to lose them.

Edit: saw Elvia's post. What caused my last diet was: fasting glucose of 104, systolic BP up 30pts over healthy as hell, and knee pain from concrete + heaviest weight ever. So of course, as he said, take your health into account if you give a shit--and you should if you're seeking longevity, which is where the best gains in bodybuilding are made.

You can check what I considered acceptable in Doggcrapp's "absolutely love stuff like this" towards the very end of the thread.
You see, I've never dieted down to a shredded state like preparing for a show. So it's hard to tell how far out I'd be, pretty far in my opinion, it's all an illusion. Just been growing for the past few years steadily.

I've never dieted down to a shredded state (not since high school at 118 lbs shredded :D). I don't compete so maybe a full on diet next summer might be in the works :eek: Who knows? This is good intel to know though, and certainly helps.

The improvements you've made over the past 6 years have been nothing short of phenomenal. Your arms and legs came up a shit ton, and waist went down (although I think your back growing played a role in that illusion!).
 

bieberhole69

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You see, I've never dieted down to a shredded state like preparing for a show. So it's hard to tell how far out I'd be, pretty far in my opinion, it's all an illusion. Just been growing for the past few years steadily.

I've never dieted down to a shredded state (not since high school at 118 lbs shredded :D). I don't compete so maybe a full on diet next summer might be in the works :eek: Who knows? This is good intel to know though, and certainly helps.

The improvements you've made over the past 6 years have been nothing short of phenomenal. Your arms and legs came up a shit ton, and waist went down (although I think your back growing played a role in that illusion!).
Thanks man. In your state then...I'd consider "what's the leanest I've been recently" (past few years, not highschool...LOL) and ask yourself the same questions. Maybe you're comfortable 15-20lbs from there. How quick can you get back there? Etc.

I think dieting down to stage-ready isn't necessary if not doing a show, as going from 8% to 5% takes a lot of extra time and energy and wastes growing time if not doing a show. However...if you haven't been down to 8% in a LONG time, perhaps do that next summer? If nothing else, it'll give you a fresh baseline of where you're ACTUALLY at (a lot of guys think they're bigger than they are / have less to lose than they do). Not only that...but will allow you to make an honest assessment of where your physique is at and what you need to improve. As well as prime you to grow. Not a bad trade-off IMO.
 

cm

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Really depends on YOU and where YOU are ok with being.
agree
I dont think anyone else an tell you what is right
for every success story of someone getting too fat, there are 3 more where it didnt work from year to year, and also opposite is true for the bodybuilder who kept their calories low, who came in great, and again, some that didnt progress

you know what you feel, you do the training
you do the suffering when u do cardio and when you diet
some get away with more and are incredibly lucky, some drop fat fast , some have slower metabolisms and have to do everything to get back

experiment, pay attention to what happens season to season
if you have coaching, communicate with them, and learn your physique together
 

kscowboy

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Why get fat in the offseason? You dont have to get FAT to grow. You can get slightly bigger and fuller, but you dont have to get fat. The problem that i have seen for years, is that in the offseason, people think they can eat anything they want and then suffer for 12-16 weeks to pull the fat off. In the offseason, you can still get big by just eating more clean food. You will be fuller but not necessarliy fat.
 

jayl19

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When I finish dieting down to around 6/7% bf and start bulking I gain fat so easy even if I try my best to reverse diet, BUT once I hit 12% bf my fat gain just stops, so there's no point in my trying to stay sub 10% and starving when I can eat 5k cals daily for 5/6 months and hardly gain anything

As for the insulin sensitivity, I watched a lot of the John meadows vids and Iv started my bulk with this in mind, so being doing cardio post work out, metformin twice a day, plus I'm gona do a 2 week mini diet in a few months when my fasted glucose is in the 90s
 

thethinker48

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Why get fat in the offseason? You dont have to get FAT to grow. You can get slightly bigger and fuller, but you dont have to get fat. The problem that i have seen for years, is that in the offseason, people think they can eat anything they want and then suffer for 12-16 weeks to pull the fat off. In the offseason, you can still get big by just eating more clean food. You will be fuller but not necessarliy fat.
Good point.

My intention wasn't to fully endorse a bad diet. But even a surplus of clean calories will accrue fat. I and a vast majority of people aren't Michael Lockett who can look like an action figure year round on any type of diet.

I don't naturally have a huge appetite, I don't even like eating the clean foods I need to eat to grow lol Let alone having cheat meals on a weekly basis.

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