I’ve gone to a true 5 1 5 tempo. Joints feel great

[comedycentral]

So at 48 and fairly beat up I’ve dropped poundage considerably and have adopted a slow 5 sec lowering at least 1 to 2 sec pause then a 5 sec raise. I seem to hit the target muscle bang on as I have felt 2 day doms that I haven’t had for a good while and joints feel decent. I will say it’s a bit boring training like this but I feel less like the tin man so I’ll take it at the minute

 

[Flex500]

So at 48 and fairly beat up I’ve dropped poundage considerably and have adopted a slow 5 sec lowering at least 1 to 2 sec pause then a 5 sec raise. I seem to hit the target muscle bang on as I have felt 2 day doms that I haven’t had for a good while and joints feel decent. I will say it’s a bit boring training like this but I feel less like the tin man so I’ll take it at the minute

I'm pretty much in the same ballgame here. I'm doing full body, one set to failure and it also allows you to move fast because you don't need near the warmup with slower, more deliberate reps like that. All and any joint pain is 100% gone for me.

 

[Massive G]

So at 48 and fairly beat up I’ve dropped poundage considerably and have adopted a slow 5 sec lowering at least 1 to 2 sec pause then a 5 sec raise. I seem to hit the target muscle bang on as I have felt 2 day doms that I haven’t had for a good while and joints feel decent. I will say it’s a bit boring training like this but I feel less like the tin man so I’ll take it at the minute

Yes it definitely takes concentration to a new level especially on free weight exercises where I was used to throwing the weight up in the positive portion of the rep. Now it's like total tension throughout the whole movement.

 

[grizzly978]

I'm pretty much in the same ballgame here. I'm doing full body, one set to failure and it also allows you to move fast because you don't need near the warmup with slower, more deliberate reps like that. All and any joint pain is 100% gone for me.

Same with the full body to failure. Just a warm up set and then keep going, some exercises I’ll throw a band in like in John Meadows videos and let the blood squeeze in and keep steeping back forward etc until it fails.

 

[alfresco]

But don’t expect any significant changes in muscular development. My opinion.

You can go ‘slow’ (control) which is safe but I think you can go too slow which again, from my experience not ideal, not even a maintenance level for muscular development.

5 x 5 would be too slow to me but may work for you.

As long as you are moving the weight and the weight is not moving you I think you are GTG.

Me thinks you just need to find the sweet spot. For me it is just a deliberate and controlled pace.

When this whole ‘super slow’ craze started (I know the story behind the story and the parties involved . . . with no thanks to Ken Hutchens). I remember Arthur Jones calling it ‘super stupid’.

Please keep us informed of your results.

Mt cousin had a Super Slow gym (and one of my friends was a certified trainer, by Ken H) and both failed to produce any results that would even raise an eyebrow by the general public let alone a bodybuilder.

That’s my spiel.

 

[comedycentral]

But don’t expect any significant changes in muscular development. My opinion.

You can go ‘slow’ (control) which is safe but I think you can go too slow which again, from my experience not ideal, not even a maintenance level for muscular development.

5 x 5 would be too slow to me but may work for you.

As long as you are moving the weight and the weight is not moving you I think you are GTG.

Me thinks you just need to find the sweet spot. For me it is just a deliberate and controlled pace.

When this whole ‘super slow’ craze started (I know the story behind the story and the parties involved . . . with no thanks to Ken Hutchens). I remember Arthur Jones calling it ‘super stupid’.

Please keep us informed of your results.

Mt cousin had a Super Slow gym (Anker one of my friends was a certified trainer, by Ken H) and both failed to produces any results that would even raise an eyebrow by the general public let alone a bodybuilder.

That’s my spiel.

Oh I agree there. I’ve seen 10 3 10 and don’t think it would yield much but I feel the 4-5 sec mark is no momentum and pretty muscle focused.
For example at 190lb I can do about 18 bw chins but I managed 11 and my strength just died yet my back felt very pumped.

 

[comedycentral]

I’m sure Charles P was fond of 4 second tempo

 

[Flex500]

But don’t expect any significant changes in muscular development. My opinion.

You can go ‘slow’ (control) which is safe but I think you can go too slow which again, from my experience not ideal, not even a maintenance level for muscular development.

5 x 5 would be too slow to me but may work for you.

As long as you are moving the weight and the weight is not moving you I think you are GTG.

Me thinks you just need to find the sweet spot. For me it is just a deliberate and controlled pace.

When this whole ‘super slow’ craze started (I know the story behind the story and the parties involved . . . with no thanks to Ken Hutchens). I remember Arthur Jones calling it ‘super stupid’.

Please keep us informed of your results.

Mt cousin had a Super Slow gym (Anker one of my friends was a certified trainer, by Ken H) and both failed to produces any results that would even raise an eyebrow by the general public let alone a bodybuilder.

That’s my spiel.

I agree with this and think there is a point where it is so slow it becomes an exercise of endurance and less one of mechanical tension. My tempo varies as well based on the movement. For instance on leg curls, it's such a long range of motion I find a 5-7 second eccentric, brief pause, and then 2-3 seconds concrentric suits me the best. Some exercises it's 4/4, etc. I also think the transition of eccentric to concentric (and vice versa) in a slower fashion is what really helps protect the joints and ease joint pain. I literally could not do a dip and as soon as I stopped doing them like a whack a mole and made a slow reverse in direction I can do them no problem, no pain, no issue.

I also think the key is you still have to push to advance and progress in weights or reps. I may have had to drop my working sets for squats by 100 pounds, but now I'm working my way back up.

 

[dsteelo455]

how much do you guys lower the weight and how many reps now with slow tempos at 7-10 seconds per rep?

 

[comedycentral]

how much do you guys lower the weight and how many reps now with slow tempos at 7-10 seconds per rep?

I would say my sets are around 7-10 reps.
For example today I did a mini circuit of chins dips and lat raises
Chins about 7/8
Dips 11/12
Lat raise about 8
All to failure

 

[Massive G]

I’m sure Charles P was fond of 4 second tempo

Yes

But don’t expect any significant changes in muscular development. My opinion.

You can go ‘slow’ (control) which is safe but I think you can go too slow which again, from my experience not ideal, not even a maintenance level for muscular development.

5 x 5 would be too slow to me but may work for you.

As long as you are moving the weight and the weight is not moving you I think you are GTG.

Me thinks you just need to find the sweet spot. For me it is just a deliberate and controlled pace.

When this whole ‘super slow’ craze started (I know the story behind the story and the parties involved . . . with no thanks to Ken Hutchens). I remember Arthur Jones calling it ‘super stupid’.

Please keep us informed of your results.

Mt cousin had a Super Slow gym (and one of my friends was a certified trainer, by Ken H) and both failed to produce any results that would even raise an eyebrow by the general public let alone a bodybuilder.

That’s my spiel.

^^^
Yes sir as usual you are an encyclopedia of knowledge and experience as usual.
Like the original poster I was having joint problems and the heavy ass weights were killing them and lost the feeling. I first started doing super slow 10 seconds down and up and made some improvements but they quickly stagnated . Back to a slower tempo and higher rep range and was back in the game. I always wondered why the smallest guys were featured in some of these super slow training videos. All training methods have merit so mix and match as you need to continue to grow as you age.

 

[Big Dave Smith]

if people were more precise in their descriptions regarding training, context would be a lot easier to understand.

Heavy weight should always be used. Heavy weight/load has been unfairly/dishonestly blamed for joint problems. If heavy weight “hurts”, d chronic or acute injuries/pain result from using it, it’s almost never the load. Its technique, tempo, and intensity.

If you control the eccentric, kill all momentum, and transfer (without momentum or a bounce) strongly into the concentric, there should be no pain unless technique is off or a pre-existing issue is present.

If you kill the momentum between eccentric and concentric, you can even add a layer of safety by creeping slowly out of the lengthened position and accelerating about 1/4 of the way through the concentric.

All these magical tempos are just made up numbers to reduce momentum from tearing apart joints. Heavy isn’t bad at any age. People just have poor technique and haven’t thought any of this through.

 

[blackjack]

if people were more precise in their descriptions regarding training, context would be a lot easier to understand.

Heavy weight should always be used. Heavy weight/load has been unfairly/dishonestly blamed for joint problems. If heavy weight “hurts”, d chronic or acute injuries/pain result from using it, it’s almost never the load. Its technique, tempo, and intensity.

If you control the eccentric, kill all momentum, and transfer (without momentum or a bounce) strongly into the concentric, there should be no pain unless technique is off or a pre-existing issue is present.

If you kill the momentum between eccentric and concentric, you can even add a layer of safety by creeping slowly out of the lengthened position and accelerating about 1/4 of the way through the concentric.

All these magical tempos are just made up numbers to reduce momentum from tearing apart joints. Heavy isn’t bad at any age. People just have poor technique and haven’t thought any of this through.

Absolute gospel

 

[Flex500]

if people were more precise in their descriptions regarding training, context would be a lot easier to understand.

Heavy weight should always be used. Heavy weight/load has been unfairly/dishonestly blamed for joint problems. If heavy weight “hurts”, d chronic or acute injuries/pain result from using it, it’s almost never the load. Its technique, tempo, and intensity.

If you control the eccentric, kill all momentum, and transfer (without momentum or a bounce) strongly into the concentric, there should be no pain unless technique is off or a pre-existing issue is present.

If you kill the momentum between eccentric and concentric, you can even add a layer of safety by creeping slowly out of the lengthened position and accelerating about 1/4 of the way through the concentric.

All these magical tempos are just made up numbers to reduce momentum from tearing apart joints. Heavy isn’t bad at any age. People just have poor technique and haven’t thought any of this through.

I think this overall sums up what everyone is trying to say quite well. The tempo is just a way to simply do exactly what you are saying. It's not magic, it's just a formula to "kill the momentum between eccentric and concentric" and all momentum in general. I like the way you worded that. That is actually precisely where most injury issues occur, chronic and acute. I'd even double down and say you can almost completely eliminate risk of injury if you do that. Of course, my background is in physical therapy so my #1 rule is "first, do no harm".

 

[Cerberus777]

I don't do the slow up, I don't get results. Control the negative and remove momentum works well for me.

 

[alfresco]

Yes

^^^
Yes sir as usual you are an encyclopedia of knowledge and experience as usual.
Like the original poster I was having joint problems and the heavy ass weights were killing them and lost the feeling. I first started doing super slow 10 seconds down and up and made some improvements but they quickly stagnated . Back to a slower tempo and higher rep range and was back in the game. I always wondered why the smallest guys were featured in some of these super slow training videos. All training methods have merit so mix and match as you need to continue to grow as you age.

Thank you.

I have a moment.

Disclaimer. I have never met or talked with Ken.

Some ‘SuperSlow’ (SS) history, from memory; a person who hired him and his writings and from two family members that operated two SS gyms and in writings.

University of Florida College of Medicine was given millions of dollars by Arthur Jones to study the effects of weight training on osteoporosis in the elderly. Ken Hutchins supervised the study, Arthur was too busy. (One of Arthur Jones’s biggest regrets was that he could not be in two places at once.) Arthur Jones eventually fired him for gross incompetence and lying.

Ken developed the SuperSlow protocol there; slower, less weight, less momentum, i.e., safer. Only he carried it to extremes and branded it. He went on and started his own ‘cult’, designed some interesting machines (I will give him that), stole Arthur’s cam designs and redesigned them to suit his own unfounded beliefs and wrote a ton of absolute bullshit under the guise of science based.

Some, a very very few, probably zero, improved their appearances but only through diet, not SS training.

Nothing wrong with moving slow, but too slow, like too fast is not optimal and may be, in some, most(?) instances, counterproductive.

Many here have articulated speed of movement this better than I. My mantra has been, when in doubt, move slower. Control the weight, do not let the weight control you. And accentuate the negative as it is the most important aspect, result producing part of the exercise movement.

 

[Flex500]

Thank you.

I have a moment.

Disclaimer. I have never met or talked with Ken.

Some ‘SuperSlow’ (SS) history, from memory; a person who hired him and his writings and from two family members that operated two SS gyms and in writings.

University of Florida College of Medicine was given millions of dollars by Arthur Jones to study the effects of weight training on osteoporosis in the elderly. Ken Hutchins supervised the study, Arthur was too busy. (One of Arthur Jones’s biggest regrets was that he could not be in two places at once.) Arthur Jones eventually fired him for gross incompetence and lying.

Ken developed the SuperSlow protocol there; slower, less weight, less momentum, i.e., safer. Only he carried it to extremes and branded it. He went on and started his own ‘cult’, designed some interesting machines (I will give him that), stole Arthur’s cam designs and redesigned them to suit his own unfounded beliefs and wrote a ton of absolute bullshit under the guise of science based.

Some, a very very few, probably zero, improved their appearances but only through diet, not SS training.

Nothing wrong with moving slow, but too slow, like too fast is not optimal and may be, in some, most(?) instances, counterproductive.

Many here have articulated speed of movement this better than I. My mantra has been, when in doubt, move slower. Control the weight, do not let the weight control you. And accentuate the negative as it is the most important aspect, result producing part of the exercise movement.

Interesting info thanks for sharing! I've read into some of the history of Ken. It's all quite interesting, but I think you are right, the whole SS thing took a good concept (kill momentum basically, reduce risk of injury, etc) and just took it to the extreme so it could be branded. Maybe a "very slow" cadence would be good for elderly or frail individuals just starting or in therapy but it the world of extreme strength, sports, and physique development it just took a good concept too far to sell it and brand "something new", all imo of course.

 

[FartJohnson]

if people were more precise in their descriptions regarding training, context would be a lot easier to understand.

Heavy weight should always be used. Heavy weight/load has been unfairly/dishonestly blamed for joint problems. If heavy weight “hurts”, d chronic or acute injuries/pain result from using it, it’s almost never the load. Its technique, tempo, and intensity.

If you control the eccentric, kill all momentum, and transfer (without momentum or a bounce) strongly into the concentric, there should be no pain unless technique is off or a pre-existing issue is present.

If you kill the momentum between eccentric and concentric, you can even add a layer of safety by creeping slowly out of the lengthened position and accelerating about 1/4 of the way through the concentric.

All these magical tempos are just made up numbers to reduce momentum from tearing apart joints. Heavy isn’t bad at any age. People just have poor technique and haven’t thought any of this through.

Mmm I’m not so sure. I think it’s reasonable to assume that lifting hundreds of pounds week in, week out for decades on end will cause accelerated joint damage and increased rate of injury. Even with textbook form & tempo.

 

[juggy38]

I was under the impression a sub maximal load needs to be moved as fast as safely possible on the concentric to create maximal tension on the fibers?

Slower eccentric makes sense, slow concentric doesn’t as much….but I could be wrong

 

[Big Dave Smith]

Mmm I’m not so sure. I think it’s reasonable to assume that lifting hundreds of pounds week in, week out for decades on end will cause accelerated joint damage and increased rate of injury. Even with textbook form & tempo.

Why?