IGF 78 on 5.4iu genotropin... seems I got scammed.

[Josefein421]

Thank you.

Source got very defensive as well. I asked how I can just trust that other stuff is legit too. He got all angry saying "top guys and olympians rely on us. How dare you!" Offered to replace w Generic. Said it was an "issue" they corrected. I said everyone claims they have top guys, use labs tests, etc but it's all really reputation, word of mouth and trust. Sure a source could test their stuff to share. Doesn't mean that's what they sell.

I didn't accuse just vented and hypothesized lookingo for reassurance. I mean it was $4k over 5 months.

Just took the wind from my sales a little. Going to stay on diet plan during the day and have a free meal tonight and tomorrow night and go from there. Figure out next step

 

[Palifter]

I have no dog in this fight but if you want to continue to work work a coach under the Mountain Dog “brand”, Andrew Berry would be a wise choice.

I’m working with him now. Fantastic all around and has no issue with me using Meditrope.

Good luck, OP.

 

[goback2013]

Most coaches, "coach" someone into a show.
Physique. SHW. Open classes. Etc
What coaches specialize in non-competing classes? Specifically(I'm just pulling this name out the air) the 'baddest motherfucker in town' class ?

 

[IFBBProDomCardone]

Based on his response alone I would find a new coach. HGH aside it sounds like the two of you don’t mesh.

I tell every guy on here who DM’s me to interview your coach before you hire them. Ideally on video but at least a call. If you don’t synch then it won’t last.

If you want a top pro coach I’d go with @IFBBProDomCardone as his guys are on point right now.

Then you also have @luki7788 and @Quadlife who know their shit and are awesome coaches.

Once trust is lost with a coach it’s hard to get past it. Either way do what’s best for you.

I’d move back to the meditropes, get a new coach and take the learning lesson. Just saved you 6-12 months of true progress missed from having the wrong coach by experiencing this IMO. Find the win.

Thank you very much BB! I am open to working with anyone truly serious about whatever their goal is. I wanted to add I personally don't care if they are pro, amatuer, lifestyle, military, "CEO", or non-competitor. I just love assisting people who want to give 100% towards whatever the goal is.

 

[Josefein421]

I have no dog in this fight but if you want to continue to work work a coach under the Mountain Dog “brand”, Andrew Berry would be a wise choice.

I’m working with him now. Fantastic all around and has no issue with me using Meditrope.

Good luck, OP.

I know Andrew commented on one of his guys having fake stuff (idk what) and Viz w Sebastian. My beef isn't w Cris regarding that it was more the defensiveness after he pushed hard for pharma. Called sero "the Lamborghini of gh" multiple times and how 4-8iu pharma morphed physiques and generic was junk and he'd rather I not use any of that was the option.

I admit I also felt like I rubbed him the wrong way. Like I was an annoyance or bother. Don't get me wrong he answers everything super fast and detailed. Explains. Just a vibe I got. Like i was saying too many questions he seemed unimportant?

I was busting my ass though. I'm mid divorce, moved during all this, finish grad school on top of work... it grounded me and gave me a big focus. I scheduled a photoshoot for 1/27 to give myself a target. Kind of a taste of prep/competing.

I admit it sucked especially the last week. Energy at zero that underwater feeling always wanting to sleep. 5 weeks til
Goal and I'm at 0 carbs off days, 110 training days w trace fats. Sucks but I know part of the process. I want to see it through but my resolve has weakened. Idk if I want to stick w him. Definitely not after the shoot if I do it. But it's probably too close to transition and go through that hassle.

Had a burger and tots and cake last night. Zero carbs at work today. Debating a free meal after while I sort through my thoughts.

Maybe I'm just a head case lol. I feel like maybe so. I need some sort of a relationship/trust w a coach. Not just faceless emails w dry explanations and seemingly no interest/investment. Maybe I'm unrealistic and needy or that's just how it is at low levels. I worked w Josh Bryant for strength work when I competed in powerlifting. He was great. The opposite. We vibed, met up once, had a great relationship. Maybe bodybuilding is different.

Source offered to send 6 kits of his generic that he says was jano tested. Then called me
Passive aggressive and "shit talking" and has gone silent now...

Pics are after training arms yesterday. Unsure to push til 1/27 w Cris, on my own or reverse... or hire someone else

 

[beast405]

I love this argument "Olympia guys" I don't know what people who make such an argument think, but I think they think anyone is an idiot who believes in such shit

I ask a lot of top amateurs and many PROs from Europe and I personally know that 100% of the bodybuilders I know use generic - magic pharma lol

Exactly luki. I can’t stand hearing that dumb shit. These guys that say good generics are nothing compared to pharma grade. It simply is not true ! There are generics that are amazing !

 

[beast405]

Stick with TP for your GH needs. TP is universally considered GTG on this board and his GH has been test throughly by many. No need to go with "pharma" anymore these days. Not worth the risk of getting something fake or the addtional cost.

Exactly. Majority of “pharma” on the market is counterfeit.

 

[beast405]

I know Andrew commented on one of his guys having fake stuff (idk what) and Viz w Sebastian. My beef isn't w Cris regarding that it was more the defensiveness after he pushed hard for pharma. Called sero "the Lamborghini of gh" multiple times and how 4-8iu pharma morphed physiques and generic was junk and he'd rather I not use any of that was the option.

I admit I also felt like I rubbed him the wrong way. Like I was an annoyance or bother. Don't get me wrong he answers everything super fast and detailed. Explains. Just a vibe I got. Like i was saying too many questions he seemed unimportant?

I was busting my ass though. I'm mid divorce, moved during all this, finish grad school on top of work... it grounded me and gave me a big focus. I scheduled a photoshoot for 1/27 to give myself a target. Kind of a taste of prep/competing.

I admit it sucked especially the last week. Energy at zero that underwater feeling always wanting to sleep. 5 weeks til
Goal and I'm at 0 carbs off days, 110 training days w trace fats. Sucks but I know part of the process. I want to see it through but my resolve has weakened. Idk if I want to stick w him. Definitely not after the shoot if I do it. But it's probably too close to transition and go through that hassle.

Had a burger and tots and cake last night. Zero carbs at work today. Debating a free meal after while I sort through my thoughts.

Maybe I'm just a head case lol. I feel like maybe so. I need some sort of a relationship/trust w a coach. Not just faceless emails w dry explanations and seemingly no interest/investment. Maybe I'm unrealistic and needy or that's just how it is at low levels. I worked w Josh Bryant for strength work when I competed in powerlifting. He was great. The opposite. We vibed, met up once, had a great relationship. Maybe bodybuilding is different.

Source offered to send 6 kits of his generic that he says was jano tested. Then called me
Passive aggressive and "shit talking" and has gone silent now...

Pics are after training arms yesterday. Unsure to push til 1/27 w Cris, on my own or reverse... or hire someone else

You look awesome bro

 

[TheOtherOne55]

1. Your coach sounds shady. Anyone you are already paying AND then They push their sources is doing shady shit. I don’t trust it.

2. Even with that, I’m not sure your shit is fake. Your IGF is very different but your serum numbers are draaastically different at all. MANY things can influence an IGF score, your overall liver health, nolvadex, tren, etc.

 

[bbxtreme]

Thank you very much BB! I am open to working with anyone truly serious about whatever their goal is. I wanted to add I personally don't care if they are pro, amatuer, lifestyle, military, "CEO", or non-competitor. I just love assisting people who want to give 100% towards whatever the goal is.

Absolutely man. You and AJ have so much in common and your work speaks for itself on IG. And you take the time to come on here and answer people. That’s what guys want in a GOOD coach.

Mad props to you for doing that because most of these “pro” coaches don’t do that these days which is sad.

 

[275bills]

You look great man. Move on and keep pushing forward. No need for more drama. Learn from the experience

 

[juggy38]

Thank you.

Source got very defensive as well. I asked how I can just trust that other stuff is legit too. He got all angry saying "top guys and olympians rely on us. How dare you!" Offered to replace w Generic. Said it was an "issue" they corrected. I said everyone claims they have top guys, use labs tests, etc but it's all really reputation, word of mouth and trust. Sure a source could test their stuff to share. Doesn't mean that's what they sell.

I didn't accuse just vented and hypothesized lookingo for reassurance. I mean it was $4k over 5 months.

Just took the wind from my sales a little. Going to stay on diet plan during the day and have a free meal tonight and tomorrow night and go from there. Figure out next step

This is an easy way to test. Find someone who has done a few generic (or any) serum GH test. Make sure they are not on tren now and weren’t on tren when they did prior serum pulls. Send them one of your vials.

If they also score shitty….well we know it’s not the tren. If they score 20+, it’s the tren.


Usually I’ll score anywhere from 22-28 on a 10iu bolus at 3h

 

[Black Beard]

I have been dieting hard and introduced pharma GH from the beginning. I worked up to 5.4iu/day split and just didn't get the magical response (or any noticeable response) so I even upped it to 7iu/day for a few weeks.

No super full feeling, no big weight drops/shredding, pumps unchanged... decreased but I thought that was just low carbs... and no negative sides like increased heart rate, CTS or increased BP that I had in the past on generic. I just couldn't shake the suspicion so I had labs drawn...

10iu IM 46min before draw (they got me back way faster than I planned). Also on 5.4iu genotropin for 3-4 months now aside from about a month at 7iu

Results
GH serum- 15.5 < 7.1)
IGF- 78 (52-328)

Seems like it's faked w a ghrp maybe bc I'm getting some bump post inject

Here's the thing... contrast this to 4iu/ day TP black. Same protocol for testing...

Results
GH serum- 16.8
IGF- 411

So I scored higher on serum and WAY higher IGF on 1.4iu LESS from TP than "pharma".

If this is accurate I'm furious in part because the source and using pharma exclusively was pushed and provided by my coach.

Thoughts??

For peace of mind, i would re-do that GH serum test.


Personally, i do 10 IU or full vial 3 hours or 3 hours 30 mins before blood draw to the deltoid. I usually schedule my quest blood draw or show up 3 hours after injection.


Usually, i see +30 GH serum with 12+ IUs.


If the "genos" were 15 GH serum results after 45 mins, its possible at 3 hours they might peak much higher. (unless i misread the result).


Especially since the TP black and "genos" had similar GH serum results.


Tren and caloric defects and sometimes SERMs and other meds will significantly cut down liver IGF-1 production when taking HGH.

 

[Black Beard]

To add: Can also grab some TP blacks and keep the EXACT protocol of AAS, calories, training, etc and run same IU for 4 weeks and re-test IGF-1.

 

[Josefein421]

I would


For peace of mind, i would re-do that GH serum test.


Personally, i do 10 IU or full vial 3 hours or 3 hours 30 mins before blood draw to the deltoid. I usually schedule my quest blood draw or show up 3 hours after injection.


Usually, i see +30 GH serum with 12+ IUs.


If the "genos" were 15 GH serum results after 45 mins, its possible at 3 hours they might peak much higher. (unless i misread the result).


Especially since the TP black and "genos" had similar GH serum results.


Tren and caloric defects and sometimes SERMs and other meds will significantly cut down liver IGF-1 production when taking HGH.

I thought the protocol was an hour so that's how I did it both times. It's worth a try. Not repeat IGF?

So if IGF isn't elevated or elevated as high is the GH still "as effective"? Calories are low 1700 off day, 2070 training day. Just the tren based on what everyone says as far as anything that could effect score.

At least the 1hr serum tests are apples to apples time and dose. Shouldn't geno or whichever is "better" score the highest all things equal?

Wouldn't a ghrp also spike gh serum but have little effect on IGF? Like I said to you... if the drop was 411->150 I'd be like ok maybe tren, diet, variation, etc. But 411-> 78 and not even supraphysiological and here's the biggest point...

ZERO ANECDOTAL EFFECT. No crazy lipolysis, fullness, water, nail growth... I bite my nails and DEFINITELY noticed on the 4iu TP. I got NOTHING noticeable of any kind even on 7iu/meat and part of that was before tren and big calorie cut. I thought for sure I'd "see the magic"

I'm baffled and really trying to not be accusatory as I'm upset but the extreme defensiveness didn't help. And honestly I didn't realize how uncommon it is for a coach to refer a source.

 

[luki7788]

I thought the protocol was an hour so that's how I did it both times. It's worth a try. Not repeat IGF?

So if IGF isn't elevated or elevated as high is the GH still "as effective"? Calories are low 1700 off day, 2070 training day. Just the tren based on what everyone says as far as anything that could effect score.

At least the 1hr serum tests are apples to apples time and dose. Shouldn't geno or whichever is "better" score the highest all things equal?

Wouldn't a ghrp also spike gh serum but have little effect on IGF? Like I said to you... if the drop was 411->150 I'd be like ok maybe tren, diet, variation, etc. But 411-> 78 and not even supraphysiological and here's the biggest point...

ZERO ANECDOTAL EFFECT. No crazy lipolysis, fullness, water, nail growth... I bite my nails and DEFINITELY noticed on the 4iu TP. I got NOTHING noticeable of any kind even on 7iu/meat and part of that was before tren and big calorie cut. I thought for sure I'd "see the magic"

I'm baffled and really trying to not be accusatory as I'm upset but the extreme defensiveness didn't help. And honestly I didn't realize how uncommon it is for a coach to refer a source.

when you use trenbolone your igf is low but it's systemic igf because trenbolone increases intramuscular igf and this cannot be tested unless you do a muscle biopsy

And so, even when you have low ifg, hgh works - remember that increasing the level of igf is not the only thing for which we use gh

 

[Josefein421]

Thank you for that explanation!

 

[pesty4077]

I always do my GH serum test the same. Shoot whole vial or 10 ius in shoulder with slin pin on empty stomach. Test 3 hours later. You can eat 1 hour after shot. 1 hour is not enough to peak properly for GH serum test.

That being said, TP has never sold junk and been here over a decade. Why people go elsewhere is beyond me. I would compare his gold tops with any pharmaceutical brand. You also have sponsors that are guaranteed and others with years of proven track record.

The response you got back from that coach should tell you what to do.

 

[Black Beard]

I thought the protocol was an hour so that's how I did it both times. It's worth a try. Not repeat IGF?

So if IGF isn't elevated or elevated as high is the GH still "as effective"? Calories are low 1700 off day, 2070 training day. Just the tren based on what everyone says as far as anything that could effect score.

At least the 1hr serum tests are apples to apples time and dose. Shouldn't geno or whichever is "better" score the highest all things equal?

Wouldn't a ghrp also spike gh serum but have little effect on IGF? Like I said to you... if the drop was 411->150 I'd be like ok maybe tren, diet, variation, etc. But 411-> 78 and not even supraphysiological and here's the biggest point...

ZERO ANECDOTAL EFFECT. No crazy lipolysis, fullness, water, nail growth... I bite my nails and DEFINITELY noticed on the 4iu TP. I got NOTHING noticeable of any kind even on 7iu/meat and part of that was before tren and big calorie cut. I thought for sure I'd "see the magic"

I'm baffled and really trying to not be accusatory as I'm upset but the extreme defensiveness didn't help. And honestly I didn't realize how uncommon it is for a coach to refer a source.

Yeah, HGH still works without serum IGF going up. As @luki7788 said, HGH tells all the cells to make IGF; muscles, skin, bone, hair.


Most of the IGF-1 you see in blood work is made by your liver, so you won't be able to see the intracellular IGF. Trenbolone makes the liver produce less, but animal studies suggest trenbolone either increase muscle igf production or the sensitivity of muscle to igf.

Regardless, guys who stack HGH with trenbolone see no decrease in results from either compound.


HGH increases lipolysis aka fat loss independently of any IGF production or effect.


Generally, HGH seems to peak closer to 3 hours than 30 m to 1 hour for most guys. Route of Administration, activity levels and genetics will affect that peak from person to person.


If you repeat the IGF-1; i would try something like TO blacks, same dosage and protocol you just did with the "genos".


If you repeat GH serum; i would do everything the same, but inject the genos 3 hours before blood draw to the delt. That's kind of the standard everyone does here on PM you can compare serum #s to.


GHRP / GHRH peptides are unlikely to spike serum GH that high especially with the exact same results as real GH.


It would be really weird if peptides could raise serum GH to very similar numbers as real GH after 3 hours. Peptides are pretty garbage at raising both GH and IGF levels. I'm glad that fad died out.

 

[Doitagain]

Send a sample to Jano. This would cost less than multiple blood tests and cuts off all the variables ( calories, carbs, Tren etc) .