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Karbolyn osmolarity confusion

Wayacrucis

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I am a little confused...this is right from karbolyn's website - "Karbolyn® also has a Higher Solution Osmolarity than Dextrose, Sucrose or other carb powder."

For us slin users, do we not want something with LOW osmolarity? Vitargo's website says that Vitargo has a very low osmolarity, while Karbolyn's says that its high. I was under the impression that low osmolarity was desired, because it means that the carb will leave the stomach quickly and get into the blood stream fast. While high osmolarity delays this process.

If this is the case why is it that Karbolyn is recommended? Isn't high osmolarity the main issue with dextrose?
 
Hmm interesting. I wonder if they made a serious typo.

Sent from my SM-N900V using Tapatalk 2
 
It is true... you want low osmolality. I read what it says and it does state HIGH osmolality... I have no idea... I just know I use karboload from True Nutrition and feel great lol
 
You want high molecular weight, not osmolality..low osmolality = faster gastric emptying which is the key concept here on getting nutrients into blood and shuttled into muscle while you train..

JM
 
Agreed with what JM said above.

However, the OP is talking about Osmolarity and it is Osmolality people have been mentioning.
 
I ran out of Karbolyn so I started using Glycofuse, which Ive had for eons now because I didnt like it at first. But since using it recently I actually prefer it over Karbolyn. Not once have I had any GI stress unlike Karbolyn I need to limit the amount I have to use, Glycofuse I can use up to 150g and no issues at all and basically the same amount of water too. I just wish it werent so messy when scooping.
 
Agreed with what JM said above.

However, the OP is talking about Osmolarity and it is Osmolality people have been mentioning.

LMAO! Osmolarity is the concentration of particles in a solution... assumiong this has to do with high molecular weight. High osmolarity and high molecular weight are interchangeable? High osmolarity mean more particles are in the solution so this would assume it has a higher molecular weight....

I am extrapolating here... not sure if that is correct...
 
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Love this site glad I caught this info.on karbolyn been looking up to hear more opinions on this stuff.rite now I'm using vitargo happy with it just the price sucks.
 
You want high molecular weight, not osmolality..low osmolality = faster gastric emptying which is the key concept here on getting nutrients into blood and shuttled into muscle while you train..

JM

Right. So using that logic doesn't it mean that Karbolyn is not a good choice for an intra workout and post work out carbs? Their website says it has high osmolarity, so does that not mean that it takes a long time to leave the stomach and get nutrients into the muscle??
 
Right. So using that logic doesn't it mean that Karbolyn is not a good choice for an intra workout and post work out carbs? Their website says it has high osmolarity, so does that not mean that it takes a long time to leave the stomach and get nutrients into the muscle??


Osmolality and osmolarity are different :)
 
Osmolality and osmolarity are measurements of the solute concentration of a solution. In practice, there is negligible difference between the absolute values of the different measurements. For this reason, both terms are often used interchangeably, even though they refer to different units of measurement.
 
LMAO! Osmolarity is the concentration of particles in a solution... assumiong this has to do with high molecular weight. High osmolarity and high molecular weight are interchangeable? High osmolarity mean more particles are in the solution so this would assume it has a higher molecular weight....

I am extrapolating here... not sure if that is correct...


Yes, low weight due to smaller size equals higher amount, For a visual draw a circle and put as many quarters(dextrose) in the circle that will fit. Now fill the circle with dimes(karbolyn) you will probably put 20% more dimes in the circle.

HGBD are a little smaller. So it should be a little better.....comes down to digestion for me.
 
Osmolality and osmolarity are measurements of the solute concentration of a solution. In practice, there is negligible difference between the absolute values of the different measurements. For this reason, both terms are often used interchangeably, even though they refer to different units of measurement.

That's what I thought. Thank you for clearing that up. So...I am pretty sure Karbolyn is a horrible choice according to their own website. I'll be sticking with Vitargo or Glycofuse.
 
like john said high molecular weight and low osmality, i believe ideally you want the osmality to be lower than that of blood , hence the heavy amount of water used to dillute the solution down.
 
Karbolyn was never that great and is now obsolete.:lightbulb: I did like it for a time, though...circa 2008-2010. Actually, in 2008 I may have still been trying my hardest to make Waxy Maize work..freaking garbage!
 
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BTW, I randomly came across this write-up(on HBCD's) by David Reid in the Geard Up social media group....





Let's first define osmolality. Osmolality is the number of molecules of a given substance (solute) in a kilogram of liquid (solvent). To be high in osmolality, means it has many molecules in solution. Imagine a bucket of water with a 100,000 sugar (sucrose) grains in it. So after these molecules dissociate, you would have 100,000 glucose and 100,000 fructose molecules floating in solution. It makes sense that this solution has a high osmolality, due to having 200,000 molecules in solution. The following example should provide simple understanding: you could have 200,000 fructose and glucose molecules in solution vs 2000 one hundred long glucose chains. Of course these numbers don't represent the reality, they were just an off the cuff comparison. So how does the above jumbo jumbo affect you? The stomach has osmo-receptors that sense osmolality of the incoming solutions. The higher the osmolality, the slower the gastric emptying rate. So the high sugar solution is actually held up longer in the stomach while the HBCD's travel like a bowling ball through your stomach into the intestine to be absorbed. The beauty is, that these molecules are so interlinked and complex, it takes a long time to hydrolyze (break down) the glucose bonds, therefore resulting in a rapid but sustainable release of glucose into the bloodstream. This helps avoid insulin spikes and resultant blood sugar crashes.
 
Here is the whole thing...

The ABC's of HBCD's
Written by David Reid

It seems everyday that there is a new miracle supplement discovered that will revolutionize the world as we know it. It will do everything from fat loss, muscle gain, fight cancer, arthritis, heart disease and even make a mans "junk" bigger or breast's grow to the size of watermelons! This industry can be the Wild West; not much law or regulation to keep snake oil salesmen at bay. So how do you find what works? First,we must define what a supplements role is. A supplement by definition is "Something added to complete a thing, make up for a deficiency, or extend or strengthen the whole". The whole is a sound nutrition program. Without rock solid base nutrition, supplements can do little. There is no miracle pill that allows you to stuff your face full of garbage food and yet maintain a top level physique or for that matter, health. In a simple equation, proper diet = 95% + supplements = 5%; Supplements are the icing on the cake. I can't tell you how many people approach me with a Jack in the box diet yet have a gym bag full of the latest and greatest supplements.
So, now that we understand what a supplements true role is, what is something fairly cutting edge to help out most people who train hard and value recovery. In the past decade, high molecular weight starches have become more prominent. The first one I encountered was Vitargo way back in 2003. I tried it and I could tell a profound difference in my recovery from even the toughest sessions. I also used to swallow 40 grams of BCAA tablets per hour session. So what does it this have to do with supplements? After Vitargo came out, there were many cheaper versions of waxy maize starch that hit the market. True Nutrition, always a leader, brought out an affordable version that benefitted many. I had all my athletes on it. So now in 2014, the new kid on the block is Highly Branched Cyclic Dextrin's or HBCD's for short. What is this mystery molecule and how may it benefit me you may ask? That is what I will try to answer in terms most can understand by simplifying the science.
HBCD's are made from amylopectin (Starch) molecules which are enzymatically altered so that they cross bridge and link up. This changes the shape, de-naturIng the original molecule, much like cooking egg whites. Egg whites are still egg whites and contain the same amount of protein, they just change structurally. Imagine taking a tree branch and making it into a circle. All the leaves, branches and stems would still be on it, it's now a circular tree branch, but it's still a tree branch. How does this help? We will see shortly. Now that we defined what HBCD's are, we need to know how they benefit a body. When we work out, we create a deficit of energy, nutrients, and some hormones. So how do we climb out of this self created hole? The body needs the proper building blocks i.e. amino acids and glucose to repair damaged muscles. The idea is to use HBCD's pre and inter-workout so that the body has a constant supply of energy so that you can get through intense training. You also need a protein source (BCAA's, whey hydrolysate, or a combination of the two) to fight off catabolism. A simple carbohydrate source that doesn't cause a blood sugar spike and insulin response would be best. So what gets there optimally? How about just high glycemic simple sugars you may ask? The issue with fast sugars is two fold: with a rapid rise in blood glucose comes a rapid insulin response that almost always leads to hypoglycemia. This would be a poor choice during a workout, but a great choice post workout. With simple sugars, you would probably see your energy nose dive before you finished your lift. Simple sugars also have a very high osmolality, which we will see is problematic. So just what the hell does this osmolality word mean!
Let's first define osmolality. Osmolality is the number of molecules of a given substance (solute) in a kilogram of liquid (solvent). To be high in osmolality, means it has many molecules in solution. Imagine a bucket of water with a 100,000 sugar (sucrose) grains in it. So after these molecules dissociate, you would have 100,000 glucose and 100,000 fructose molecules floating in solution. It makes sense that this solution has a high osmolality, due to having 200,000 molecules in solution. The following example should provide simple understanding: you could have 200,000 fructose and glucose molecules in solution vs 2000 one hundred long glucose chains. Of course these numbers don't represent the reality, they were just an off the cuff comparison. So how does the above jumbo jumbo affect you? The stomach has osmo-receptors that sense osmolality of the incoming solutions. The higher the osmolality, the slower the gastric emptying rate. So the high sugar solution is actually held up longer in the stomach while the HBCD's travel like a bowling ball through your stomach into the intestine to be absorbed. The beauty is, that these molecules are so interlinked and complex, it takes a long time to hydrolyze (break down) the glucose bonds, therefore resulting in a rapid but sustainable release of glucose into the bloodstream. This helps avoid insulin spikes and resultant blood sugar crashes.
Peri-workout nutrition ( nutrition taken in before, during, and after) a workout is becoming more prevalent. High glycemic carbohydrates are great post training. They in essence force feed the muscle glucose in a hurry, usually resulting in blood sugar dips. While this is great post workout, it would be terrible for workout performance. So a great way to maximize this anabolic window is to drink HBCD's before and during your workout, along with either BCAA's or whey hydrolysate to deliver nutrients to your muscles while you train, yet doesn't crash your blood sugar. Right now, you can buy HBCD's from True Nutrition - The Highest Quality Supplements and Protein at the Lowest Prices or use Glycofuse from Gaspari Nutrition. They are both excellent products. There are other companies out there, but I can't speak for their products personally. HBCD's come in alpha, beta, and gamma chains. The beta chain is currently the preferred molecule in bodybuilding as it seems to favor rapid protein uptake according to the most recent research. Gaspari Nutrition and True Nutrition carry the beta chain and they are trusted sources so I highly recommend either. Powerhouse Gym Clinton Township carries Glycofuse so pick it up from your gym . Go buy some today and improve your recovery and make those hard earned gains you are seeking a reality!
As for dosing, this inter-workout drink could contain anywhere from from 10-50% of the daily carbohydrate intake totals. It would depend entirely on how lean the person is and how much lean muscle mass they have. I personally dilute 75 grams in 1/2 gallon of water. You get no bloating and it seems to fill out my muscle nicely and doesn't interfere with fat loss. By keeping the mixture high in water content, you make the mixture lower in osmolality, which is our goal. A good rule of thumb I have found through trial and error is if you don't dilute the solution enough, you get a rather unpleasant effect called "dumping syndrome". It is a real medical issue, but literally feels like your colon is trying to turn inside out. You will pass feces like a 12 gauge shotgun blast. At that point, you know you have a hyper-osmolality solution. Simple fix, add more water. The drawback for bigger bodybuilders, 240 lbs +, is that some can utilize up to 250 grams of HBCD's. This may take 3/4 of a gallon to keep the solution with lower osmolality. Drinking high amounts of water during a workout could either force you to pee a ton or rely on Depends panties! All kidding aside, most people will have to tinker with "their" mix so they can maximize the load they are able to consume.
Why is it important to keep the mix dilute enough? If it isn't diluted properly, you will find the solution has an osmolality higher than your serum(blood), which has a normal reference range of 278-300 mmol/kg of water at roughly a 15% solution. So for the HBCD's to be absorbed rapidly, the solution needs to be lower than serum. HBCD's are roughly 160,000 Daltons in weight versus dextrose at roughly 160 Daltons, which simply means they are 1000 times larger and more complex. Obviously, we need the solution to be lower in osmolality than serum. I believe roughly 100 grams HBCD's mixed with a half gallon of water would provide an osmolality of around 11. This would be a good dosing for a male middleweight bodybuilder. The larger the muscle mass, the higher the gram dosage of HBCD's therefore you need more water to dilute the solution enough to bring it below serum to allow for rapid gastric emptying.
Hopefully this article makes sense to most people so the terms Daltons, osmolality, and rapid gastric emptying are no longer a mystery. That way more athletes can take advantage of HBCD's in their quest for gains.
 
I used Karbolyn for a while and was using 8-10 grams per iu . I always was tired when working out and had no energy unless using an energy drink. Felt the onset of hypo once running the above. I now use of all things, Tang, which is sucrose. I have been running 5 grams per iu and have no energy issues. Actually I have increased energy without using a pre work out drink. It is super cheap and for me seems to do the job nicely. I run 16 iu's slin preworkout. I for some reason lost weight, 2-3 pounds, using Karbolyn and have not changed any supplements, including food, and have put on 8 pounds in 4 weeks using the same with the exception of Tang. I got the idea from an experienced lifter at my gym and it seems to work great for me.
 
October 2012: Cyclic Dextrins – the Ultimate Intraworkout Carb
By Bill Wills

The next rage in carbohydrate supplementation involves the use of designer glucose polymers called highly branched cyclic dextrins (HBCDs). A few supplement companies are now including HBCDs as a major carb source in their products, and some companies are even offering HBCDs as stand-alone product. A lot of claims have been made, but do these “designer” carbs really live up to all the hype? What are HBCDs, how do they work, and how can we use them as a tool to take our training, nutrition, and performance to the next level?
To answer these questions and more, we need to take a look at carb supplementation in general. It’s a good idea to include some type of carbohydrate supplement in your intra-workout nutrition. This serves two purposes: to deliver a rapid and steady supply of blood glucose to hard working muscles, and to harness the power of insulin, the most anabolic hormone. This keeps performance up, protein synthesis on, and minimizes the inherently catabolic effects of intense training. To that end, it is a common practice to use a combination of quickly digesting proteins such as casein or whey hydrolysates along with a carb source in the intra-workout nutrition shake. While protein is obviously important, the choice of the carb source is also key. The simplest way to go is to use simple carbs such as glucose (aka dextrose). After all, all complex carbs are broken down into glucose before they are absorbed, and glucose is absorbed very rapidly.

The problem with dextrose/simple carbs:
Although dextrose/simple carbs look good on paper, things are not so simple in reality. The human body is a finely tuned machine. Nutrient density is sensed in the small intestine by special types of receptors called “osmoreceptors”, which sense the concentration (also referred to as “osmolality”) of stomach contents as they exit the stomach. This information is relayed back to the stomach through neural and hormonal messages, controlling the rate of gastric emptying. If these osmoreceptors sense that contents exiting the stomach have a high osmolality, gastric emptying is delayed. This is a problem with dextrose/simple sugars in general: In spite of warp-speed absorption in the small intestine, glucose/simple sugar solutions (unless they are VERY dilute) have an extremely high osmolality. This delays gastric emptying into the small intestine, where carbs are actually absorbed. Worse, in the context of an intra-workout nutrition shake, you aren’t only delaying the delivery of carbs; delivery of those fast acting (and generally pricey) protein hydrolysates will also be delayed. Use too many of the wrong type of carbs, and you might as well be gnawing on a steak during your workout, which wouldn’t be a terrible thing, but good luck getting any amino acids actually delivered to muscle tissue during in a timely fashion!
To understand how this works, it helps to understand osmolality. Osmolality is a measure of the concentration of a solution in terms of osmoles solute (Osm) per kilogram of solvent. For our purposes here, the “solute” is the stuff being dissolved (carbs, for the sake of our discussion), and the “solvent” is the stuff that does the dissolving (the water in your intra-workout shake). To avoid overloading the digestive system, the stomach senses the concentration of stomach contents as they pass into the small intestine, and regulates gastric emptying accordingly.

What about glycemic index?
Concentrated dextrose/simple carb solutions have a high osmolality, which delays gastric emptying. But doesn’t dextrose have a high glycemic index? Generally when a “fast” carb source is desired, we choose one with a high glycemic index, which is a measure of the blood glucose increase from carb consumption. Dextrose has a very high glycemic index, so it does seem a bit paradoxical that high GI concentrated dextrose/simple carb solutions also delay gastric emptying. To illustrate how this works, think of a horse race, where each different type of carb is a different horse, and glucose is the fastest horse out there. The problem is, after the starting gun is fired, when all the slower horses are off to the races (to the small intestine), glucose is stuck at the gate (in the stomach). Glucose isn’t worried though. It’s the fastest horse out there, and can easily make up the lost ground. Before the race is over, the gate finally opens for glucose, which flies around the track, leaving all the other horses in a cloud of dust as it crosses the finish line (i.e. absorption from the small intestine into the bloodstream). This nicely illustrates second problem with dextrose as a carb source in your intra-workout shake. Blood glucose levels are not sustainable. Although delayed, glucose absorption in the small intestine is extremely rapid, sending a huge bolus of sugar into the bloodstream. Naturally, this causes a big insulin response to deal with all that blood sugar. The problem is that when insulin is released in large amounts, it almost always does too good of a job. The increase in blood sugar is transient. After insulin spikes, blood sugar decreases, usually causing hypoglycemia.
Of course a solution to the problem would be to constantly sip simple carbs throughout your workout. This fixes the “sustainability” issue, but not the delay in gastric emptying. Unless you are dealing with an extremely dilute solution, simple carbs in ample amounts will significantly delay gastric emptying. Not only will protein absorption be delayed, but this is also a common cause of stomach cramps. This is one of the major reasons why people complain of stomach issues when drinking these intraworkout drinks actually. Not good.

The fix: high molecular weight glucose polymers
Fortunately, there is a way to “trick” the stomach into releasing large amounts of carbohydrate into the small intestine for rapid absorption. Rapid absorption isn’t our only concern though. Going back to the horse-race analogy, we a need a horse that runs slow, but is also very fast out of the gate. This would provide a rapid, but sustained increase in blood sugar. High molecular weight glucose polymers are ideal in this respect. When glucose molecules are linked together to form high molecular weight polymers, one molecule can consist of hundreds to thousands of individual glucose molecules linked together. These high molecular weight polymers have a much lower osmolality in solution. As a simple example, compare a solution consisting free glucose molecules (i.e dextrose) to another solution of equal volume with an equivalent amount of glucose, but in the form of high molecular weight glucose polymers. (Remember, that osmolality = molecules of solute/ kg of solvent.) Because there are much more solute molecules in the dextrose solution, a dextrose solution will always have a much higher osmolality than an equivalent solution of glucose polymers. Now you understand the value of high molecular weight carbs; they have a much lower osmolality in solution compared to free glucose, so they are emptied from the stomach extremely fast.
Although emptied from the stomach rapidly, high molecular starches are also very large, so they need to by hydrolyzed into free glucose by digestive enzymes in the small intestine before they are absorbed into the blood stream. This property makes them an ideal carb source; high molecular weight glucose polymers generally provide a rapid, but very sustained release of glucose into the bloodstream. One of the most popular high molecular weight starches in recent years has been waxy maize. The carbs in waxy maize consist almost exclusively of amylopectin, a glucose polymer with a highly branched molecular structure. Because of an extremely long glucose chain length and extensive branching, the starch in waxy maize has a high molecular weight. As mentioned above, high molecular weight = low osmolality in solution. As a result waxy maize passes through the stomach much faster than an equivalent glucose solution. The highly branched structure of the amylopectin starch in waxy maize also provides a slower, steadier release of glucose into the bloodstream. This gives a rapid, but also sustained release of glucose.

Enter HBCDs
The current state of the art in carb supplementation involves taking natural starches like the amylopectin in waxy maize and modifying their molecular structure to increase molecular weight as well as the extent of branching/crosslinking. Increased molecular weight reduces osmolality in solution, speeding up gastric emptying. Increased branching/crosslinking controls the access of intermolecular glucose linkages to digestive enzymes, which extends absorption time in the small intestine. The result is an ideal carb source; one which passes through the stomach very rapidly, providing a quick but also sustained release of glucose into the blood stream. With these properties in mind, highly branched cyclic dextrins (HBCDs) were created. HBCDs are a new type of glucose polymer that is produced by reacting waxy maize starch with a special branching enzyme, forming a cyclical structure. The result is a glucose polymer with some ideal properties: HBCDs have an average molecular weight of 160,000 Da, so they have an extremely low osmolality in solution and a rapid gastric emptying time. (*Compare HBCDs to dextrose, which has a molecular weight of around 180 Da!) The highly branched/cyclical structure of HBCDs also provides a rapid, but very sustained release of glucose into the bloodstream (1, 2).
HBCDs don’t just look good on paper; preliminary animal research suggests they can actually increase athletic performance (1). As you can see in the figure below from Takii et al. 1999, HBCD supplementation in mice significantly increased swimming time to fatigue compared to glucose or water. These results are not actually surprising; it makes sense that sustained glucose release provides a steadier supply of carbohydrates to burn when glycogen stores are depleted by intense exercise.


Wrap-up:
HBCDs are one of a number of new “designer” carbs that are definitely worth checking out. There are two very big advantages to using these high molecular weight glucose polymers in your intra-workout nutrition. First, they provide a rapid, but very sustained release of blood glucose. How rapid vs. how sustained depends not only on molecular weight but also on the overall molecular structure, which determines how quickly enzymes in the small intestine are able hydrolyze these large glucose polymers into free glucose for absorption. The use of a particular branching enzyme with HBCDs resulted in a high molecular weight glucose polymer with some ideal properties. The second advantage to using high molecular weight glucose polymers is that that they have a very low osmolality in solution. Unless you are an endurance athlete, you probably include some type of protein isolate or hydrolysate in your peri-workout nutrition. The last thing you want to do is delay absorption of this “fast” protein by delaying gastric emptying with high osmolality carbs. More likely than not, there will be many more advances in the science of carbohydrate supplementation in the future, and we’ll be here to keep you posted.
Until next month,
Bill





Reference List

1. Takii H, Ishihara K, Kometani T, Okada S, Fushiki T. Enhancement of swimming endurance in mice by highly branched cyclic dextrin. Biosci Biotechnol Biochem 1999;63:2045-52.
2. Takii H, Takii NY, Kometani T, Nishimura T, Nakae T, Kuriki T, et al. Fluids containing a highly branched cyclic dextrin influence the gastric emptying rate. Int J Sports Med 2005;26:314-9.
 

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