lean mass cycle critique

[Buttman3]

I have been training for at least 7 - 8 years on and off with maybe a few years in there not so disciplined.


Honestly I am not looking for that classic bodybuilding look.. zyzz is actually a decent example of what I am going for but much smaller...


Here is a photo of me (attached) - now. Not sure how much BF % that is... ??

I just want to lean out a bit and maybe add 10 lbs - slowly - That is why I want primo + less sides.

Mate, you look in EXCELLENT shape! I really mean it! Honestly, I have seen a few mates who look like you (maybe more shredded than you) but after they have been on a few Finaplix Tren cycles .

Anyway, since you're going for the Zyzz type of built, and you're already very well built for your frame with low body fat (I'm estimating around 10% or less), I think that you're absolutely correct when you said you want to lean out a bit and slowly add around 10lbs more.

Now regarding your cycle, what cycles have you done recently, and what was your average weekly weight gain?

Knowing this would help in planning for your next cycle.

 

[Buttman3]

I was 195lb, 10%bf, 5'10", totally natural when I was 18yo.

Not too far from that right now. Been on TRT only since 2008, when I did my last cycle of 500mg test/600mg EQ.

195lbs with 10%bf at 18? You have very good genes! Most guys would be lucky to get that big and lean even with after a few cycles, let alone being natural.

 

[ALLEX]

I have been training for at least 7 - 8 years on and off with maybe a few years in there not so disciplined.


Honestly I am not looking for that classic bodybuilding look.. zyzz is actually a decent example of what I am going for but much smaller...


Here is a photo of me (attached) - now. Not sure how much BF % that is... ??

I just want to lean out a bit and maybe add 10 lbs - slowly - That is why I want primo + less sides.

Well, I'll have to change my mind. You're not that skinny and have good proportions and a good amount of muscle already. Fairly lean too, I'd say around 9 or 10% bf.

I think you're ready to get enhanced.

Try this:

test 150mg
primo 600-800mg
mast 300mg

Should get you where you want in no time. No need for an AI or any ancillaries. Also, little to no sides.

Let us know and good luck.

 

[NPCS FINEST]

I am going to disagree with starting a cycle now and say hold off.


Why? Simple....you have a few years training under you....not you dont have a few years training under you with the proper nutrition! I really feel that if you got set up with the right training and proper nutrition then you could really add some size without gear. Its not going to be right away, its not going to be 15-20 lbs of weight gain in 6-8 weeks.....BUT its going to be solid...lean...hard muscle that you are going to have for the rest of your life. If you keep training.

So instead of starting a cycle at 160 lbs and getting up to 180 lbs for example....I think you could add 10-15 lbs on your frame without gear ....then when you do add gear you will be 170-175 lbs. I am a firm believer in trying to get as much size as you can without gear before you jump on gear. I started gear at a younger age....even tho I had about 5 years of training under me only 3 of those years were with good nutrition. If I could start all over I prob would of waited another year or two before jumping on gear because I know I could of added another 10-15 lbs to myself before using it.

But its your life bro, your body and you need to do what you think is best for you. I am just giving you my 2 cents worth. Take it for what its worth!

 

[david-L]

First off :

Buttman3 - thank you ! I appreciate the ego boost

To answer your question regarding past cycles :

Unfortunately I started quite early experimenting with aas. My first cycle was a "deca only" cycle when I was 20 and ran it for 10 weeks at 400mg / w twice a week (this was back when organon had the yellow tops).

A year later or so I ran a deca + test E cycle and a few years after that I ran a Deca + winny + test E cycle and during these years I wasn't really too educated on the topic ... and the winny messed up my hairline.

I few years later being not so disciplined while training and being off for a while I started doing some serious reading and last year I ran a Test E cycle with my first ever proper PCT.

Anyway - I have been off for 1 year now but I have been training since my last cycle (not only GYM but some MMA and Crossfit as well). My goal as I stated earlier is just to lean out and add a bit of mass..nothing drastic as I am not looking for the BB type look but rather slow and steady gains.

I like the idea mentioned earlier by Alex to add some Masteron to the Primo and Test E as that should be a great combo however I think that I should be a bit lower in bf % before going for the masteron (and It could be harsh on my already thinning hair) - hence the Tren .

I am also open to EQ however I have heard that EQ is horsemeat compared to Primo being filé mignón.

:headbang:

and Guys ..honestly .. I really do appreciate all of the input (even the ones saying I should train natty and get a coach as those comments show a genuine concern and a desire for my well being .. oh and experience ) thanks !!

 

[Buttman3]

First off :

Buttman3 - thank you ! I appreciate the ego boost

You're welcome, mate. Just giving some honest feedback.

I few years later being not so disciplined while training and being off for a while I started doing some serious reading and last year I ran a Test E cycle with my first ever proper PCT.

What was your Test E dosage, and do you remember how much weight you gained per week on average?

The reason I'm asking is because knowing how much weight you can gain on a certain dose of Test E will make things a lot easier to estimate what kind of gain you can expect to get if you were to get on a new cycle, with different dosages and new compounds.

I am also open to EQ however I have heard that EQ is horsemeat compared to Primo being filé mignón.

I was searching for Primo cycle results last night, and I found this and thought it might help you get a better idea of the kind of results from Primo:

The 1000mg Primo Story.... With Before Pics!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

The 1000mg Primo Story.... With Before Pics!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Posted by satchboogie

"now i know many here bash primo for its high price, but you really GET WHAT YOU PAY FOR!! and if the below info/pics dont change your mind, nothing will!

the plan was 1000mg a week for 12-16 weeks.
i ended up runnin for 16 weeks.
the only addition was proviron at 50mg a day throught cycle, and a stretch of 3 weeks on Clen/t3 in the middle of cycle.

the pic here is taken late february, 2005:

210 pounds
approx 15% bf

**broken link removed**

these 2 pics were taken july 15th at end of 16 week primo cycle:

222 pounds
approx 10% bf

**broken link removed**

**broken link removed**


my diet was fairly clean, although i must admit i could have eaten much much cleaner. lookin back ill honestly say i could have lost more fat if i ate better. but the results are still remarkable to say the least!

training was as usual...
5-6 times per week for 45 minute sessions.

cardio i must have done a total of maybe 5 sessions if that!!!

correct me if im wrong, but this is the first known case of anybody using 1000mg primo per week... id like to get more feedback on this as i truly believe primo at such dose can be a new breakthrough in bodybuilding!

now i know some will still bash primo as they've either never tried it, or havent tried it in a dose that high. they'll do test at 1000mg a week, but NOT primo at 1000mg.. why not? give it a shot!!!

yeah yeah i know its pricy...
primo isnt cheap!
but no test/deca/tren/dbols/anadrol/var/winny will get you teh results of 1000mg primo! I GUARANTEE THAT!!!

im not tryina sell or push anything by this thread!
shit honestly i dont care if people buy turkish primos, BD primos, or any other UG primo.. this is a non-biased thread PERIOD!!!

i even pondered if i could have acheived the same results using different gear? but i've ran cycles before and NONE HAVE EVEN GOTTEN CLOSER to this cycle!!

ok enough said..
ill be glad to reply to all questions on this thread.
thanks."
​

 

[david-L]

Yeah I don't doubt that primo at such doses will be good with a proper diet and training.

To answer your question regarding the test cycle. I ran it at a mild dosage of 375 mg weekly for i think 12 weeks.

I went from 149 lbs to 165 lbs and lost some water etc post cycle and now I am at 160 lbs.

 

[Buttman3]

Yeah I don't doubt that primo at such doses will be good with a proper diet and training.

To answer your question regarding the test cycle. I ran it at a mild dosage of 375 mg weekly for i think 12 weeks.

I went from 149 lbs to 165 lbs and lost some water etc post cycle and now I am at 160 lbs.

Hey mate,

Based on your Test E 375mg cycle, your average weight gain was 1.33 lb / 0.6 kg per week.

Suppose that you were to get back on Test E 375mg and get the same steady weight gain per week, it will take you approximately 8 weeks to gain a total of 10 lbs / 4.54 kgs.

However, as you might already know, the weight gain per week in a cycle is rarely ever steady. As you gain more weight, it becomes harder and harder to keep gaining the same amount of weight as you did the weeks before by being on the same dosage.

The weight gain per week will diminish slowly, week by week, and you will get to a certain weight where the dosage will be just enough to maintain your weight. Have you reached a certain weight where you believe the 375mg of Test E is just barely enough to maintain your weight?

 

[anarchocapitalist]

Wow that simple 3 books is all u need to learn how to get the body u want

SO IN A NUTSHELL he don't need the books anymore all he needs to do is follow the diet and workout protocol u outlined for him and he is good to go

I'm trying to find where I said these books are all you need to know to get the body you want. Can you point that out or are my reading/comprehension expectations a little much for a guy named Pimp-man? My point was, for someone without much experience, these books are informative and more than enough for a physical transformation goal. I know guys who have competed in local bodybuilding shows with Chris Acetos Championship Bodybuilding book alone. These are good books.

Initially I thought that, if you are going to criticize my advice, that your advice would be better. Aside from your rambling, pompous response I couldn't see anything that could be considered a rational thought ... never mind some advice.

In a nutshell I feel that I'm actually dumber for having taking my time for this.

You are awarded no points.

And my God have mercy on your soul.

LOL joking bro. But seriously ... the original 160lbs poster is asking for advice on a primo cycle while eating 1800 calories in one or two meals per day ... and you thought my advice of (a) education and (b) get back to the basics was terrible?

 

[david-L]

Hey mate,

Based on your Test E 375mg cycle, your average weight gain was 1.33 lb / 0.6 kg per week.

Suppose that you were to get back on Test E 375mg and get the same steady weight gain per week, it will take you approximately 8 weeks to gain a total of 10 lbs / 4.54 kgs.

However, as you might already know, the weight gain per week in a cycle is rarely ever steady. As you gain more weight, it becomes harder and harder to keep gaining the same amount of weight as you did the weeks before by being on the same dosage.

The weight gain per week will diminish slowly, week by week, and you will get to a certain weight where the dosage will be just enough to maintain your weight. Have you reached a certain weight where you believe the 375mg of Test E is just barely enough to maintain your weight?

Good input.

Can't say I have ...

 

[Buttman3]

Good input.

Can't say I have ...

Ok, great! Then, you should have no problem gaining around 10 lbs / 4.54 kgs for your cycle, considering you'll be stacking Test 350mg with Primo 500mg for 14 weeks.

As to your question regarding whether or not to add Tren:

If you want to get extra shredded and Primo doesn't seem to do it for you, let's say, by week 10, then Tren would definitely help you achieve that.

If this were the case, you can start the Tren at week 11, which would make your cycle look like this:

Week 1-14:
Primobolan 2.5 ml x 2 = 500mg,
Test E 0.75 ml x 2 = 350mg,

Week 11-14 (4 weeks total):
Tren Ace 0.5 ml x 3 = 150mg
(or Tren Ace 1 ml x 3 = 300mg)
---------


Based what I have seen from other people's Tren cycles as well as from my own, Tren Ace (1ml x 3 = 300mg) would give way better results than Primo in only as little as 3-4 weeks.

I have ran both Tren Ace as well as Tren E, and Tren Ace would be more ideal for short cycles and someone who have never ran Tren, for a few reasons:

1. Tren Ace will "kick in" after 2-3 days. You will feel the effects right away. By the end of the first week, you will notice your body getting leaner.

2. Side effects - If you run into Tren side effects, it's easier to manage if you're on Tren Ace, because the side effects would be gone very quickly - around 2 days.

In addition, you can adjust the dose and feel the difference with the new dosage within 2-3 days, too. In other words, you can get almost an instant feedback.

For instance, I was having some migraine with a 200mg Tren shot, but I lowered my next shot to 150mg and the migraine was no longer an issue.
--------

So in conclusion, for your Primo cycle, IF you feel that you need to get extra shredded and Primo isn't doing it by the 10th week and want to try Tren, I would recommend Tren Ace instead of Tren E, and start with the lower 0.5ml x 3 (150mg per week) to get a feel for it. If you get satisfactory results with a small dose, there is no need to go higher.

If something I said is unclear, please let me know.

Cheers and best of luck.

 

[david-L]

Thank you buttman!

What would you suggest I do if I skipped the primo completely? Add eq? Bump up the tren and start it earlier and lower the Test?

 

[Buttman3]

Thank you buttman!

What would you suggest I do if I skipped the primo completely? Add eq? Bump up the tren and start it earlier and lower the Test?

You're welcome mate .

Regarding the idea to replace Primo with EQ, I'm not sure if EQ is a good substitute. When I was running EQ at 300mg/week, my red blood cell count went up pretty high. My blood work result showed my hematocrit above the high range on the reference chart.

As far as results, EQ didn't seem to benefit me anymore than when I wasn't running it, so I just skipped EQ, because the blood pressure wasn't worth it.

If cost isn't an issue for you (and it doesn't seem to be based on your original post), then I'd say stay with your original plan with Primo and forget about EQ.

As to starting the Tren earlier: How many weeks earlier are we looking at here?

 

[david-L]

well... I am not made of money .. of course cost is always a factor... but when it comes to my health ..money won't be in my way between choosing something with less sides even if it costs more.

having said that, I am always open to running something "cheaper" that would give me equal or better results ...

To answer your question about the Tren ... not sure really but I think I would rather go for the longer ester as I don't like pinning ED or EOD.

 

[Buttman3]

well... I am not made of money ..

For a moment, I thought you were .

of course cost is always a factor... but when it comes to my health ..money won't be in my way between choosing something with less sides even if it costs more.

having said that, I am always open to running something "cheaper" that would give me equal or better results ...

I don't know of any cost effective substitute for Primo that would give equal results. I have seen people say that EQ is a poorman's Primo, but I'm not sure how accurate that is.

In terms of results and cost effectiveness, Tren would beat Primo, without a doubt. However, regarding sides, Primo beats Tren.

Speaking from my personal experiences with Tren, I'd say that its sides are very tolerable, as long as the dose isn't high. The worst sides from Tren in my opinion are insomnia, blood pressure, and erectile dysfunction.

The insomnia and blood pressure haven't been much of a problem for me, because I keep my dose around 300mg/ml a week or less. In addition, I noticed that shooting smaller doses (150mg/ml or less) each time greatly minimizes the sides. I only experience high blood pressure and insomnia when I shoot a larger dose all at once.

As to the erectile dysfunction, I'm on cialis, so I have no problem here. It's recommended that those who are on Tren also take Caber to control Prolactin, which supposedly caused this issue with erection. I don't take Caber, so I can't tell you much about it.

To answer your question about the Tren ... not sure really but I think I would rather go for the longer ester as I don't like pinning ED or EOD.

This is understandable. Many people prefer to shoot no more than twice a week.

So, if you prefer to use longer ester, Tren E would be it.

I have used Tren E but only in a stack with Tren A and Sustanon (TRT dose).

The stack was:
Tren Ace 0.5 ml x 2 = 100mg
Tren E 0.5 ml x 2 = 100mg
Sustanon 0.25ml x 1 = 50mg

Based on my training log, I had the best results in terms of strength gain (and the 2nd best results when it comes to fat loss) when I stacked Tren A with Tren E. I never got the same results when I used Tren A alone.

So, since you prefer less pinning, I would recommend stacking Tren A and Tren E this way.

If this sounds like something you would want to go with (and your preferred brand seems to be British Dragon), you might want to look into their Tri-Tren mix (Tri-Trenabol 150).

Tren A 50mg
Tren E 50mg
Tren Hex 50mg
Total: 150mg/ml

Let me know what you think.

----------

By the way, have you heard of Anavar and fat loss? There was a study conducted on Anavar and its fat burning effect on old men, and they had some amazing results:

Effects of androgen therapy on adipo... [J Clin Endocrinol Metab. 2004] - PubMed - NCBI

"We investigated the effects of oxandrolone on regional fat compartments and markers of metabolism. Thirty-two 60- to 87-yr-old men (body mass index, 28.1 +/- 3.4 kg/m(2)) were randomized to oxandrolone (20 mg/d; n = 20) or matching placebo (n = 12) treatment for 12 wk.

...

Oxandrolone reduced total (-1.8 +/- 1.0 kg; P < 0.001), trunk (-1.2 +/- 0.6 kg; P < 0.001), and appendicular [legs and arms] (-0.6 +/- 0.6 kg; P < 0.001) fat, as determined by dual energy x-ray absorptiometry.

...

Twelve weeks after discontinuing oxandrolone, 83% of the reductions in total, trunk, and extremity fat by dual energy x-ray absorptiometry scanning were sustained (P < 0.02). "
​

 

[Ehren]

For a moment, I thought you were .

I don't know of any cost effective substitute for Primo that would give equal results. I have seen people say that EQ is a poorman's Primo, but I'm not sure how accurate that is.

Lots of ways to skin that cat. ^ IME, Test P (or any) NPP, Masteron approximates Primobolan...only, ya get a lot stronger on that combo. The cost of all 3 though may be the same as Primobolan alone.

Seems you're set on a cycle and it's not new to you, OP, but one more vote here for Natty.

Think of it this way, you only want 10lbs, but ya get to keep the gains after and don't have to stay on forever like most here (including me).

 

[Buttman3]

Lots of ways to skin that cat. ^ IME, Test P (or any) NPP, Masteron approximates Primobolan...only, ya get a lot stronger on that combo. The cost of all 3 though may be the same as Primobolan alone.

Mate,

What is NPP like compared to Nadrolone Decanoate?

Is NPP the "Test Prop" and Deca the "Test E" in terms of kick in time, water retention, etc.?

 

[jimmyjones]

Mate,

What is NPP like compared to Nadrolone Decanoate?

Is NPP the "Test Prop" and Deca the "Test E" in terms of kick in time, water retention, etc.?

Yes.

Nandrolone Phenylpropionate is the fast acting version. compared to the slow acting version Nandrolone Decanoate.

From fastest to slowest it goes....

Suspension -> Acetate -> Propionate -> Enanthate -> Cypionate -> Decanoate -> Undecylenate

 

[Buttman3]

Yes.

Nandrolone Phenylpropionate is the fast acting version. compared to the slow acting version Nandrolone Decanoate.

From fastest to slowest it goes....

Suspension -> Acetate -> Propionate -> Enanthate -> Cypionate -> Decanoate -> Undecylenate

Thanks mate.

 

[FartJohnson]

You look good!

I would just do 1ml of test a week and stay on for a couple years. Enhanced HRT, if you will.

It's cheap, safe, low/no sides, effective. Looks like you just want to thicken up a bit, and this will do that. No need for the fancy compounds.

This will make the most of your work in the gym, and retain muscle mass even on a severe calorie deficit. Stay lean, and forget about cycling. Do a low dose for a longer time. Safer and more effective than the "cycle" approach. Muscle takes a long time to build, even on gear.