Need some advice guys on gyno issues

[Max32]

About to start back up and want to do this right...the last time around I developed so very mild gyno in right nipple, that I got down to the size of about a small almond or less, so no big deal per say...that being said, starting this bulk with Dbol, sust, and either deca or eq., with low dose HCG throughout via Swale's protocol. I have scripts for Nolva, aromasin, letro, and could get others if needed. Wanted to see if yall think I should go with the proactive approach and start up on low doses of the meds. If so, which ones and at what dosages...I have searched quite a bit on the topic, but seem to have a opinions all over the place...some of my fears are A) not getting enough circulating estrogen to be anabolic and make good size gains with an AI and B) if staying on the AI for an extended period of time, lowering HDL. These make me wonder if the SERM approach would be more applicable...

I have two big shows roughly a yr from now and definitely do not want to be sidelined with gyno issues or needing to have surgery...I also do not want to look like 50+% of the competitors at Jr Nationals with bad cases of gyno....thanks in advance....

 

[davidbb]

If you are prone to gyno then eventually it will be noticeable no matter what you do. The pro-active approach can be very effective but if you are serious about bodybuilding and want to move to the next level then surgery to remove the actual glands should remain an option, speaking over the long term it may actually end up cheaper as ancillary meds can be expensive. If you do one day consider surgery then Dr. Blau from New York is a very reputable guy with a ton of experience with bodybuilders (google him to find his site)

 

[Max32]

If you are prone to gyno then eventually it will be noticeable no matter what you do. The pro-active approach can be very effective but if you are serious about bodybuilding and want to move to the next level then surgery to remove the actual glands should remain an option, speaking over the long term it may actually end up cheaper as ancillary meds can be expensive. If you do one day consider surgery then Dr. Blau from New York is a very reputable guy with a ton of experience with bodybuilders (google him to find his site)

That is who I would want doing the surgery, but flying across the country worries me...the downtime, plane ride back, etc...

 

[CHAPS]

My buddy just had some gyno cut out and the only complaint he has is that he didn't get it done sooner! When i've got the cash to spare i'm getting the glands taken right out as i'm gyno prone as well . If surgery isn't an option you can always use small amounts of aromasin, it doesn't cause the rebound that femara does.

 

[Max32]

thinking about the down time worries me...strangley, I never was gyno prone until this very last go around as well, let me see if I can post some closer up pics from almost exactly one yr ago, with no visibility at all.....I do wish insurance would cover the surgery though,,lol. I may be freaking out here for nothing, but don't want to make an ass outa myself on stage either...

 

[davidbb]

thinking about the down time worries me...strangley, I never was gyno prone until this very last go around as well, let me see if I can post some closer up pics from almost exactly one yr ago, with no visibility at all.....I do wish insurance would cover the surgery though,,lol. I may be freaking out here for nothing, but don't want to make an ass outa myself on stage either...

Insurance may pay it, I've heard of a couple of guys getting it done because there is a family history of breast cancer. It's a long shot and I guess most insurance wouldn't pay out, but If anyone in your family has been unfortunate enough to suffer with breast cancer it may be worth at least talking to Dr. Blau and your insurance, the worst they could do is say no.

 

[emeric delczeg]

About to start back up and want to do this right...the last time around I developed so very mild gyno in right nipple, that I got down to the size of about a small almond or less, so no big deal per say...that being said, starting this bulk with Dbol, sust, and either deca or eq., with low dose HCG throughout via Swale's protocol. I have scripts for Nolva, aromasin, letro, and could get others if needed. Wanted to see if yall think I should go with the proactive approach and start up on low doses of the meds. If so, which ones and at what dosages...I have searched quite a bit on the topic, but seem to have a opinions all over the place...some of my fears are A) not getting enough circulating estrogen to be anabolic and make good size gains with an AI and B) if staying on the AI for an extended period of time, lowering HDL. These make me wonder if the SERM approach would be more applicable...

I have two big shows roughly a yr from now and definitely do not want to be sidelined with gyno issues or needing to have surgery...I also do not want to look like 50+% of the competitors at Jr Nationals with bad cases of gyno....thanks in advance....

How much sust, d-bol and deca you planing to take per week, for start you don`t need deca , 2nd don`t spend your $$ on HCG.

If you do the wright way, you should never have gyno.
Is no $$$ to make in bb, so be smart and care about your health.

I know from my own experiment that it is posible to take AAS and kip your HDL in good range.
Your testis produces approximatelly 6-7 mg per day, and with just that you can lift and put sum nice size on (see natural bbs) now if you can put sum nice size just with taht, can you imagine just adding a small amont of test per day
how much biger you can get. And you don`t need no D-bol or Deca. Test is anabolic and androgenic, and with the wright nutrition and training you will get big and will stay healty.

Also you need to incorporate supplements that helps the phosphorylation of the steroidogenesis activator protein to maintain hormone activated steroid production, that way you need to have you HDL in good range. I been doing this for 3 years and it works for mee. You will never here this from a MD.

Nutrition and the training is big part of my concept also.

 

[massnup]

How much sust, d-bol and deca you planing to take per week, for start you don`t need deca , 2nd don`t spend your $$ on HCG.

If you do the wright way, you should never have gyno.
Is no $$$ to make in bb, so be smart and care about your health.

I know from my own experiment that it is posible to take AAS and kip your HDL in good range.
Your testis produces approximatelly 6-7 mg per day, and with just that you can lift and put sum nice size on (see natural bbs) now if you can put sum nice size just with taht, can you imagine just adding a small amont of test per day
how much biger you can get. And you don`t need no D-bol or Deca. Test is anabolic and androgenic, and with the wright nutrition and training you will get big and will stay healty.

Also you need to incorporate supplements that helps the phosphorylation of the steroidogenesis activator protein to maintain hormone activated steroid production, that way you need to have you HDL in good range. I been doing this for 3 years and it works for mee. You will never here this from a MD.

Nutrition and the training is big part of my concept also.

So are you saying all you need is just straight test while doing a cycle? I'm interested in knowing more about this for putting on as much size as possible while staying healthy and not damaging health.

 

[Max32]

How much sust, d-bol and deca you planing to take per week, for start you don`t need deca , 2nd don`t spend your $$ on HCG.

If you do the wright way, you should never have gyno.
Is no $$$ to make in bb, so be smart and care about your health.

I know from my own experiment that it is posible to take AAS and kip your HDL in good range.
Your testis produces approximatelly 6-7 mg per day, and with just that you can lift and put sum nice size on (see natural bbs) now if you can put sum nice size just with taht, can you imagine just adding a small amont of test per day
how much biger you can get. And you don`t need no D-bol or Deca. Test is anabolic and androgenic, and with the wright nutrition and training you will get big and will stay healty.

Also you need to incorporate supplements that helps the phosphorylation of the steroidogenesis activator protein to maintain hormone activated steroid production, that way you need to have you HDL in good range. I been doing this for 3 years and it works for mee. You will never here this from a MD.

Nutrition and the training is big part of my concept also.

Thank you for taking the time on that response...I'm not sure if I came across wrong as this is definitly not my first rodeo so to speak, but last time was my first in terms of sensitivity and possible gyno issues. That being said, I get blood done 3x year, have a total cholesterol of 104 and HDL of 60. The Deca/EQ is for joints mainly. I have a script for HCG and have found that I recover MUCH faster in PCT when using low dose HCG throughout per Swale's protocol. You are right on the money about lack of $$ in bbuilding, I work in the industry in sales, and my goals are to be on as many mag covers as possible, without having to sell out to the "schmos" of the sport, and doing well on the national level...and most importantly, to use this avenue to further advance my career in sales within the industry.

As far as the supp you were referring to, is that the HUMANOFORT? I started on 400 mgs per day this past week...

Again, thank you for your words Emeric, greatly appreciated!!

 

[LATS]

i agree with emeric .. test is all one needs really.. straight test cycles will give ya alot of bang for your buck.. i asked dave palumbo about this once.. he was always saying add in a more anabolic compound to the test ecte tc.. but, when i asked him again about straight test he said that in the end the results would be the same and test is all that is needed.. cheaper too i would be interested to hear from emeric more about how much test he thinks is enough and his feelings on hcg post cycle..

 

[tatteredxangelx]

BUMP GOOD OLD TESTOSTERONE. 250mg a week and growing strong! (Though, I think growth hormone and test makes a nice combo if you're metabolism isn't the best)

 

[halflife]

AHH the wisdom... it's... so... strong.... must have more!

 

[msforr75]

I agree. Test is all you need. Makes it all simple. Still think a little Drol or DBol preworkout and 200iu HCG EOD is a good value add.

 

[OuchThatHurts]

Also you need to incorporate supplements that helps the phosphorylation of the steroidogenesis activator protein to maintain hormone activated steroid production

But that's exactly what HCG is for. Just introducing a steroidogenesis activator protein (a "StAR") that is phosphorylated is not going to induce either the hypothalamus or the pituitary to spontaneously begin producing gonadotropins to allow for normal testosterone production.

Can you explain this more fully? I was considering giving Humanofort a go and want to better understand the science behind it.

 

[emeric delczeg]

But that's exactly what HCG is for. Just introducing a steroidogenesis activator protein (a "StAR") that is phosphorylated is not going to induce either the hypothalamus or the pituitary to spontaneously begin producing gonadotropins to allow for normal testosterone production.

Can you explain this more fully? I was considering giving Humanofort a go and want to better understand the science behind it.

Whith out cholesterol you body can`t produce testosteron so why I should take HCG?
In my opinion HCG has nothing to do with phosphorylation.

It has been known for long time that one or more unknown labile regulatory proteins are involved in regulating the hormonr dependent intra-mitochondrial cholesterol trafficking. Recently, it has been shown that STAR protein fulfils the criteria for this labil protein. The STAR protein is imported into the matrix of the mitochondrion and during this transport process "contect sites" are formed between the outer and inner membrane of the mitochondrion. It is thought that cholesterol can be transferred from the outer to the inner membrane via these transient "contact sites" Since STAR is continuosly processed and ultimately inactivated inside the mitochondrion during this insertion process, continuous synthesis and probably also hormone-dependent phosphorylation of STAR are required to maintain hormone activated steroid production. Other mitochondrial proteins such as ligans could also facilitate formation of "contact sites". However, STAR is very likely the long sought protein that is involved in the rapid regulation of steroid production.

Other factors which are of importance are: the amount and activity of P450 enzyme, and the capacity for delivering reducing equivalents from NADPH to the P450 via flavoproteina and iron-containing proteins.

My comments that an iron supplement, particularly ferrous iron would enhance the production of iron-containing proteins.

Back to the phosphorylation, the phosphorylation of STAR IS A VERY IMPORTANT COMPONENT IN THE PRODUCTION OF TESTOSTERON BECAUSE IT ENABLES THE TRANSPORTATION OF STAR ACROSS THE OUTER MEMBRANE OF THE LEYDING CELL MITOCONDRIA TO THE INNER MEMBRANE WHEN THE CHOLESTEROL CLEAVAGE AND PRODUCTION OF PRENENOLONE IS ACCOMPLISHED.

My coment is that a product containing calcium salt of phytic acid would very beneficial to this process, it would supply both the phosphate groups(PO4) and the necessary calcium ions for enzymatic reaction favorable to the production of testosterone. But before all this you nedd to have your cholesterol in good range and the final step in the biosynthetic pathway of testosterone is the reduction of the 17-keto group by the 17B-hydroxysteroid dehydrogenase. Here Humanofort could be a big help becouse it helps the body to regulate the cholesterol and the 17-keto.

 

[OuchThatHurts]

Whith out cholesterol you body can`t produce testosteron so why I should take HCG?
In my opinion HCG has nothing to do with phosphorylation.

It has been known for long time that one or more unknown labile regulatory proteins are involved in regulating the hormonr dependent intra-mitochondrial cholesterol trafficking. Recently, it has been shown that STAR protein fulfils the criteria for this labil protein. The STAR protein is imported into the matrix of the mitochondrion and during this transport process "contect sites" are formed between the outer and inner membrane of the mitochondrion. It is thought that cholesterol can be transferred from the outer to the inner membrane via these transient "contact sites" Since STAR is continuosly processed and ultimately inactivated inside the mitochondrion during this insertion process, continuous synthesis and probably also hormone-dependent phosphorylation of STAR are required to maintain hormone activated steroid production. Other mitochondrial proteins such as ligans could also facilitate formation of "contact sites". However, STAR is very likely the long sought protein that is involved in the rapid regulation of steroid production.

Other factors which are of importance are: the amount and activity of P450 enzyme, and the capacity for delivering reducing equivalents from NADPH to the P450 via flavoproteina and iron-containing proteins.

My comments that an iron supplement, particularly ferrous iron would enhance the production of iron-containing proteins.

Back to the phosphorylation, the phosphorylation of STAR IS A VERY IMPORTANT COMPONENT IN THE PRODUCTION OF TESTOSTERON BECAUSE IT ENABLES THE TRANSPORTATION OF STAR ACROSS THE OUTER MEMBRANE OF THE LEYDING CELL MITOCONDRIA TO THE INNER MEMBRANE WHEN THE CHOLESTEROL CLEAVAGE AND PRODUCTION OF PRENENOLONE IS ACCOMPLISHED.

My coment is that a product containing calcium salt of phytic acid would very beneficial to this process, it would supply both the phosphate groups(PO4) and the necessary calcium ions for enzymatic reaction favorable to the production of testosterone. But before all this you nedd to have your cholesterol in good range and the final step in the biosynthetic pathway of testosterone is the reduction of the 17-keto group by the 17B-hydroxysteroid dehydrogenase. Here Humanofort could be a big help becouse it helps the body to regulate the cholesterol and the 17-keto.

I didn't say HCG has anything to do with phosphorylation. I'm saying that HCG will induce the production of testosterone. HCG won't have any benefit on the production of gonadotropins (like GnRH or GHRH) any more than a StAR will.

Humanofort is a chicken embryo extract intended to increase growth factors correct? I don't see where testosterone or phosphorylation comes into play. It can be even be safely used by women right? You mentioned regulating cholesterol. What product contains the phosphate groups you were talking about and what other ingredient promotes the chemical reaction (the phosphorylation)? This is really cutting edge biotechnology for the transportation you mentioned but I don't know of any product that claims to have that effect.

I'd love to have a link or to paper on this. It's very fascinating topic to me. Thank you for taking the time to answer my questions.

Thank you!

 

[emeric delczeg]

I didn't say HCG has anything to do with phosphorylation. I'm saying that HCG will induce the production of testosterone. HCG won't have any benefit on the production of gonadotropins (like GnRH or GHRH) any more than a StAR will.

Humanofort is a chicken embryo extract intended to increase growth factors correct? I don't see where testosterone or phosphorylation comes into play. It can be even be safely used by women right? You mentioned regulating cholesterol. What product contains the phosphate groups you were talking about and what other ingredient promotes the chemical reaction (the phosphorylation)? This is really cutting edge biotechnology for the transportation you mentioned but I don't know of any product that claims to have that effect.

I'd love to have a link or to paper on this. It's very fascinating topic to me. Thank you for taking the time to answer my questions.

Thank you!

OK my answer regarding the Humanofort, Humanofort contains heterologous peptides (low molecular) that are able to cross the gastrointestinal mucosa. These peptides have a demonstrated adaptogenic effect and act at tow levels:

1. Normalize the adrenal cortex activity(androgens,glococrticoids,mineral-corticiods).

2. Cellular/tissue level (exert cyto-stimulatin, cyto-protective and anti-oxidative properties).

So this explaines whay dogs sufering with Cushing`s disease have such a good result, it becouse helps to reduce cortisol.

Regardin the product I use for Phosphorylation is a product with the chemical formula of: Ca5,Mg(C6,H12,O24,P6,3H202)2. The structural formula clearly demonstrates that each molecule of the salt could contain lots of calcium or magnesium. The stereo chemistry (how the molecule is spatially arranged) is also very intersting. The molecules looks like a flat six sided sheet of carbon atoms (a hexagon) with large phosphate and calcium ions above and below the hexagon plane of carbon atoms. The arangment of the atoms makes it very easy to clip off one or more of the phosphate groups or to lose a calcium ion. So it may be possible for this molecule to supply phophorous atoms in just the right arrangement(phosphate groups) to be easily assimilated by the chemical mechanisms with in the human body.

This also can provide energy to muscle contractions.

I been useing this protocol for over 12 years and it works.