Oh man, your thought? (GENERAL COVID THREAD!)

danieltx · May 22, 2020

I'm really looking forward to reading the academic papers, studies, economic analyses, etc., that are written on this over the next decade. No society in world history has intentionally damaged itself so much in every facet like the US has here.

One thing I was really glad to see this week was HHS Secretary Azar go on CNN and say that the poor health of the American people was the main reason this has infected and killed so many. The anchor interviewing him immediately said, 'So are you saying this is the fault of the American people?' - only interested in sensationalist headlines, not the pure facts.

Azar's comments have been the only time I've seen anyone from government / medical / science say that. Why aren't all the medical experts and scientists encouraging Americans to lose weight, eat better, get their health issues under control, etc.? That's how we avoid mass casualties in situations like this. But it's likely because there's too much money to be made in treating the sick. Can't make money off healthy people who don't need to go to the doctor or hospital.

maldorf · May 22, 2020

danieltx said:
I'm really looking forward to reading the academic papers, studies, economic analyses, etc., that are written on this over the next decade. No society in world history has intentionally damaged itself so much in every facet like the US has here.

One thing I was really glad to see this week was HHS Secretary Azar go on CNN and say that the poor health of the American people was the main reason this has infected and killed so many. The anchor interviewing him immediately said, 'So are you saying this is the fault of the American people?' - only interested in sensationalist headlines, not the pure facts.

Azar's comments have been the only time I've seen anyone from government / medical / science say that. Why aren't all the medical experts and scientists encouraging Americans to lose weight, eat better, get their health issues under control, etc.? That's how we avoid mass casualties in situations like this. But it's likely because there's too much money to be made in treating the sick. Can't make money off healthy people who don't need to go to the doctor or hospital.

The media is going to say that Americans have poor health because we don't have nationalized medicine.

hawkmoon · May 22, 2020

maldorf said:
The media is going to say that Americans have poor health because we don't have nationalized medicine.

Americans are in poor health because they make poor choices.
I'm not sure nationalized health would help, though that can help; I think it helps a lot here.

I'm guessing obesity is the biggest factor.
America is the fattest nation on Earth and has 1/3 of the total global deaths (with only 4% of the global population).

Sorry for doing the Japan thing again but just for comparison, knowing America and Japan are on opposite ends of the fattie spectrum:

USA:
Population - 330 million
C-19 Deaths - 95 thousand

Japan:
Population - 125 million
C-19 Deaths - 777

j4ever · May 22, 2020

hawkmoon said:
Americans are in poor health because they make poor choices.
I'm not sure nationalized health would help, though that can help; I think it helps a lot here.

I'm guessing obesity is the biggest factor.
America is the fattest nation on Earth and has 1/3 of the total global deaths (with only 4% of the global population).

Sorry for doing the Japan thing again but just for comparison, knowing America and Japan are on opposite ends of the fattie spectrum:

USA:
Population - 330 million
C-19 Deaths - 95 thousand

Japan:
Population - 125 million
C-19 Deaths - 777

totally agree with ya, but what Mal is talking about is media pushing an agenda

hawkmoon · May 22, 2020

j4ever said:
totally agree with ya, but what Mal is talking about is media pushing an agenda

I know, that's why I qualified my statement.
I'm not going to get into the political aspects or motivations for any of this.

Maldorf knows where I am at on such issues

maldorf · May 22, 2020

Meanwhile, the world is hard at work on testing a vaccine. It sounds like one will be ready by January.

qbkilla · May 22, 2020

hawkmoon said:
-

I'm going to risk sounding callous, but I think we need some perspective here.

1) We've lost Luke and some others, I've had people close to me attempt, and I've pondered it myself, but suicide is a choice. A very hard, painful choice, but a choice nonetheless. A person fighting to live on in the ICU infected by perhaps a cavalier non-believer had no such choice and they are going to die anyway.

2) Somehow it is continually forgotten that the current amount of sick and dead is where it is because mitigating measure were taken. If things were not shut down, it could have been shockingly higher. Ask Sweden. Current Columbia research supports that one week earlier into lock-down could have saved 36,000 people.

More than 36,000 could be saved if we extended the lockdowns till the end of time. At what point do people stop stop trying to win the moral purity test by saying "x many lives, lives lives lives". The almost cult like mentality of lockdown support is dwindling and the support of masks will come next. Human beings for the most part are realizing they value their freedom over a false sense of security with a study or two attached telling them they need to give up their freedom some more do "xxx lives" could be saved.

If a second wave comes and they attempt to duplicate this madness hopefully people will refuse. They will not gain the amount of peace and compliance they did thr first time in my opinion, they caught people by surprise the fear for the most part has dissapated.

The reports I saw said Sweden did great, I believe the WHO even said the lockdowns were a mistake.

maldorf · May 22, 2020

qbkilla said:
More than 36,000 could be saved if we extended the lockdowns till the end of time. At what point do people stop stop trying to win the moral purity test by saying "x many lives, lives lives lives". The almost cult like mentality of lockdown support is dwindling and the support of masks will come next. Human beings for the most part are realizing they value their freedom over a false sense of security with a study or two attached telling them they need to give up their freedom some more do "xxx lives" could be saved.

If a second wave comes and they attempt to duplicate this madness hopefully people will refuse. They will not gain the amount of peace and compliance they did thr first time in my opinion, they caught people by surprise the fear for the most part has dissapated.

The reports I saw said Sweden did great, I believe the WHO even said the lockdowns were a mistake.

I think you're right about this not happening again. I think we learned a valuable lesson.

Saw Cuomo in NY blaming the deaths at nursing homes on Trump. He said there is a policy that states you can't discriminate against covid patients and that's why he placed people sick with it in nursing homes, in some cases sick people in bed in the very same room right next to someone not sick. He won't take any responsibility for his error. Too much blame shifting and politics going on. Its bullshit. Hopefully the politics won't come into action next time. There will be a next time.

I just hope that if a truly deadly virus hits our country in the future, that we don't all poo poo it because of the experience we are having now. It could be a real life "the boy who cried wolf" incidence. I think we learned a lot with this, but at the same time I have a bit of fear that we could under react in the future because of this.

nidnoy · May 22, 2020

I am not so sure we are out of this. I think the next month or so will tell a lot as lockdowns ease. I agree with only putting out the fires and not going into lockdown mode, along with economic and metal health, etc it sets problematic precedents. I think anytime we segment society that is possibly not good. I understand logistically and theory behind essential and non essential work but that could lead to bad things. Having people decide who works and who doesn’t may have been necessary but it is not good. And there are definitely times where some not so easy decisions have to be made but calling people non essential even just in their work should be very carefully done and done with a certain level of fear of that type of thing getting out of hand. Time will tell, glad all things considered things appear to be getting better in general though. I must say it has been a difficult time to interact with people. I have learned I need to be more sympathetic and while being at ease with my own view really not looking to “win” a debate so much as to allow others to vent, possibly provide some encouragement as opportunity arises and really look to support the person regardless of view especially in this where so much is unknown. There is an old saying that often what is necessary is to comfort the uncomfortable and to make the comfortable a little uncomfortable. We all tend to be a little left or right of where we should be. But of course being a good listener and introspective as well as having others who reveal our biases helps.
This has been a great revealer of my faults and for that I am thankful. I am hoping I come out of this with better character and I can be a better benefit to those around me.

Wynn · May 22, 2020

m314 · May 22, 2020

maldorf said:
Meanwhile, the world is hard at work on testing a vaccine. It sounds like one will be ready by January.

Thousands of people are volunteering for "challenge tests". They'll be injected with an experimental vaccine, then injected with SARS-COV-2 to see if it worked. This could greatly speed up testing time. This wouldn't be possible with a virus like ebola, obviously.

No one knows for sure if the vaccines will work before large scale tests are done. Hopefully at least one of the early candidates will work and be widely available soon.

maldorf · May 22, 2020

m314 said:
Thousands of people are volunteering for "challenge tests". They'll be injected with an experimental vaccine, then injected with SARS-COV-2 to see if it worked. This could greatly speed up testing time. This wouldn't be possible with a virus like ebola, obviously.

No one knows for sure if the vaccines will work before large scale tests are done. Hopefully at least one of the early candidates will work and be widely available soon.

Brave folks! We need to hear more about and from these volunteers. They are heroes IMO.

muscle96ss · May 23, 2020

maldorf said:
I think you're right about this not happening again. I think we learned a valuable lesson.

Saw Cuomo in NY blaming the deaths at nursing homes on Trump. He said there is a policy that states you can't discriminate against covid patients and that's why he placed people sick with it in nursing homes, in some cases sick people in bed in the very same room right next to someone not sick. He won't take any responsibility for his error. Too much blame shifting and politics going on. Its bullshit. Hopefully the politics won't come into action next time. There will be a next time.

I just hope that if a truly deadly virus hits our country in the future, that we don't all poo poo it because of the experience we are having now. It could be a real life "the boy who cried wolf" incidence. I think we learned a lot with this, but at the same time I have a bit of fear that we could under react in the future because of this.

Assume that Cuomo honestly though that he was being told to do that. Any person with the slightest bit of common sense and intelligence would vehemently refuse and publicly state why he is refusing and how the policy is going to kill people. In fact he has a duty as the governor to make sure nobody is enforcing that policy if he thinks it exists.

maldorf · May 23, 2020

muscle96ss said:
Assume that Cuomo honestly though that he was being told to do that. Any person with the slightest bit of common sense and intelligence would vehemently refuse and publicly state why he is refusing and how the policy is going to kill people. In fact he has a duty as the governor to make sure nobody is enforcing that policy if he thinks it exists.

Exactly! I'm still in shock that he did that. Such a stupid act. He couldn't have done anything worse. Put someone sick in the same room with an elderly person with comorbidities.

maldorf · May 23, 2020

People are going to die, nobody is responsible.

If my parents died in a NY nursing home I would be suing the governor/ state for doing what they did. It was medical malpractice.

method2madness · May 23, 2020

hawkmoon said:
Americans are in poor health because they make poor choices.
I'm not sure nationalized health would help, though that can help; I think it helps a lot here.

I'm guessing obesity is the biggest factor.
America is the fattest nation on Earth and has 1/3 of the total global deaths (with only 4% of the global population).

Sorry for doing the Japan thing again but just for comparison, knowing America and Japan are on opposite ends of the fattie spectrum:

USA:
Population - 330 million
C-19 Deaths - 95 thousand

Japan:
Population - 125 million
C-19 Deaths - 777

We should also keep in mind hat there are many other risk factors that are unrelated to obesity, such as genetic diseases, tay-sachs, sickle cell to name just 2. Obesity is certainly a problem but it is far from the only problem.

method2madness · May 23, 2020

maldorf said:
People are going to die, nobody is responsible.

If my parents died in a NY nursing home I would be suing the governor/ state for doing what they did. It was medical malpractice.

And you might have a case. He knowingly sent infected people into a place where the disease would spread rapidly. If that's not manslaughter I don't know what is! ( I'm not a lawyer, just a guy who sees reality)