Permanent size increase , need oppinions

[Gunsmith]

From what I'm understanding you can't be as big off cycle as you can on cycle due to the absence of the hormones it take to maintain that size.

For example , on cycle (600mg test 400mg EQ) you can maintain 10% body fat with a body weight of 200lbs
off cycle you loose some of this size and say drops back down to say 190lbs at 10% body fat.

Now lets say that over the course of the next 6 months you bust your ass and eat right and gain 2-3 lbs of muscle while maintaining the same BF% , all naturaly. When you start your next cycle , same as last , are you going to go back to the same size you were at your last cycle because that is as big as that much hormone can support , OR , will you get even bigger than the last cycle because you now have more muscle for the hormones to work with?

If this is the case it would seem logical to me to work your cycles this way rather than running AAS during the off season while bulking up , if when you stop your going to lose some of those gains anyway

Now what about the size you put on while taking HGH or insulin , is this actual muscle growth that will stay when you stop taking the compound?

 

[Johnny Smiles]

good question.
in the past after training nattie for an offseason and maybe gaining a pound or two then getting back ON i seemed to be bigger at same dose than before.
Testosterone causes hypertrohy in the muscle (even if it doesn't build muscle it at minimum causes hypertrophy)so if there is more muslce than last time you juiced then that new muslce will undergo hypertrphy plus what you had last time so yeah it makes sense you would be bigger on same dose.

this can also get into where you are in terms of your genetic limit etc. but to answer simply, imo you should be bigger on same dose after making gains nattie.
-JS

 

[Gunsmith]

this can also get into where you are in terms of your genetic limit etc. but to answer simply, imo you should be bigger on same dose after making gains nattie.
-JS

that was my line thinking but wanted some feedback from those with more experiance.

So , I'm wondering if their is any keepable gains to be made say with HGH or insulin (or both) , or about IGF-1 odes it realy cause an increase in the amout of muscle cells?

 

[UGAthlete]

I think that thread about Jay Cutler putting on size while dieting discusses this in a way.

 

[Magnum]

From what I'm understanding you can't be as big off cycle as you can on cycle due to the absence of the hormones it take to maintain that size.

For example , on cycle (600mg test 400mg EQ) you can maintain 10% body fat with a body weight of 200lbs
off cycle you loose some of this size and say drops back down to say 190lbs at 10% body fat.

Now lets say that over the course of the next 6 months you bust your ass and eat right and gain 2-3 lbs of muscle while maintaining the same BF% , all naturaly. When you start your next cycle , same as last , are you going to go back to the same size you were at your last cycle because that is as big as that much hormone can support , OR , will you get even bigger than the last cycle because you now have more muscle for the hormones to work with?

If this is the case it would seem logical to me to work your cycles this way rather than running AAS during the off season while bulking up , if when you stop your going to lose some of those gains anyway

Now what about the size you put on while taking HGH or insulin , is this actual muscle growth that will stay when you stop taking the compound?

With all respect your assumptions are incorrect. No amount of muscle that you have gained while taking a 1000 mgs of steroids per week will ever be gained back naturally.

 

[Gunsmith]

With all respect your assumptions are incorrect. No amount of muscle that you have gained while taking a 1000 mgs of steroids per week will ever be gained back naturally.

HHHMMMM , i was thinking along the lines of once the muscle has been X big and been subjected to lifting X amout of weight while of AAS that when you came off it would be easier for you to make natural gains providing your feed the muscle enough and push it hard enough.

So what would be the best way to build more mass in the absense of steroids so as to better improve their size the next cycle?

 

[Johnny Smiles]

i think it has to do with your genetic limit.
IF you juice and grow but DONT hit your natural genetic muscular limit then its possible you could grow while off cycle.
however, if you are at your genetic muscular limit and jiuce beyond that limit then when you come off at best you will be back at your natural limit and growth beyond it will be next to impossible.
imo you shouldnt' be juicing until you hit your natural limit anyway so it sorta negates the question

really been liking your thoughts and questions Gunsmith. you are learning alot by asking the right questions. good stuff bro.
-JS

 

[Magnum]

HHHMMMM , i was thinking along the lines of once the muscle has been X big and been subjected to lifting X amout of weight while of AAS that when you came off it would be easier for you to make natural gains providing your feed the muscle enough and push it hard enough.

So what would be the best way to build more mass in the absense of steroids so as to better improve their size the next cycle?

The short answer is that you can't.

You come off, you rest for the next time. Two steps forward one back as they say. If training is up to par and nutrition then there is going to come a time that one may have to consider upping the dose. Most people will not come out and tell you this or if someone else does then here comes the all you are about is drugs comments blah blah but I get rather sick of seeing people spin their wheels. At least know the truth. As I have said before, I personally don't think that any of this shit is worth it and there should come a day where most guys should be satisfied with their size and maybe get leaner which IMO makes one looker so much better.

 

[Magnum]

i think it has to do with your genetic limit.
IF you juice and grow but DONT hit your natural genetic muscular limit then its possible you could grow while off cycle.
however, if you are at your genetic muscular limit and jiuce beyond that limit then when you come off at best you will be back at your natural limit and growth beyond it will be next to impossible.
imo you shouldnt' be juicing until you hit your natural limit anyway so it sorta negates the question

really been liking your thoughts and questions Gunsmith. you are learning alot by asking the right questions. good stuff bro.
-JS

So are you saying that taking 1000 mgs per week will not push you past your genetic potential?

 

[Johnny Smiles]

So are you saying that taking 1000 mgs per week will not push you past your genetic potential?

it defintely will. and when you come off you will be back to your genetic limit at best and therefore will most likely not be able to make any gains naturally. so gains naturally, aftter 1000mg dose, will be next to impossible.
atleast from my experience.
-JS

 

[Gunsmith]

it defintely will. and when you come off you will be back to your genetic limit at best and therefore will most likely not be able to make any gains naturally. so gains naturally, aftter 1000mg dose, will be next to impossible.
atleast from my experience.
-JS

So i guess that once your reach your genetic limit about all you can do if you don't want to rais the dose of your next cycle is concentrate on your conditioning for the next go around?

I'm at a point in my life where i'm happy with my size , don't realy want to get any bigger , just bring my chest up some. I'm more concerned with better conditioning now days than with freaky size , and the helth issue has been weighing on my mind heavly the past year

Magnum , Johnny Smiles , what are your thoughts on using HGH and or insulin during the off season , or any of the peptides for that matter.

I'm under the impression that these "build" muscle under a differant mechaniism than normal steroids and that musclular gains made with these compounds are permanent. Is this an accurate line of info or does it all boil back down to your genetic limt no matter that you take.

 

[chris250]

Gunsmith,

Hey bro, if I remember right, you should me some pics of you from a previous contest ? right ? if I remember right, your conditioning wasnt national level (for here in the U.S.) Correct ?

Im thinking that if you got into true contest shape, that your chest would look better...(more defined, better shape, outlines, ect)


chris

 

[Gunsmith]

Gunsmith,

Hey bro, if I remember right, you should me some pics of you from a previous contest ? right ? if I remember right, your conditioning wasnt national level (for here in the U.S.) Correct ?

Im thinking that if you got into true contest shape, that your chest would look better...(more defined, better shape, outlines, ect)


chris

Wasen't me bro , I'm prepping for a show now thats the end of July , but i'm gonna do my first one (small local) the end of this month just to get a feel forbeing on stage and listening to the judges and stuff. I'm certainly not anywhere close to nation level conditioning this year !! I'm the leanest I've ever been right now and probably in the 8-10% range

I know I'm not close to being a national level competitor (I don't have the build for it) and would be happy just doing well at state level shows , I'm not planning to do this to make a lifestyle out of it , just a personal goal i set for myself. I'll probably always be into bodybuilding but doubt i'll take it any farther than what i have now. It takes alot away from my family life and rightnow my kids are as excited about it as me , but it has taken some time away from them and i'm not real happy about that.
I've been between 280-300lbs for years at about 18-22% off cycle , so I'm pretty sure I can maintain 240-250ish lbs naturaly at a reasonably lean bf%

 

[chris250]

Wasen't me bro , I'm prepping for a show now thats the end of July , but i'm gonna do my first one (small local) the end of this month just to get a feel forbeing on stage and listening to the judges and stuff. I'm certainly not anywhere close to nation level conditioning this year !! I'm the leanest I've ever been right now and probably in the 8-10% range

I know I'm not close to being a national level competitor (I don't have the build for it) and would be happy just doing well at state level shows , I'm not planning to do this to make a lifestyle out of it , just a personal goal i set for myself. I'll probably always be into bodybuilding but doubt i'll take it any farther than what i have now. It takes alot away from my family life and rightnow my kids are as excited about it as me , but it has taken some time away from them and i'm not real happy about that.
I've been between 280-300lbs for years at about 18-22% off cycle , so I'm pretty sure I can maintain 240-250ish lbs naturaly at a reasonably lean bf%

oh sorry bro...for some reason I thought it was you...anyway...good luck with your goals...Im not sure what your genetics are like, but if you carry around 300lbs with a good amount of muscle...then I cant see why you couldnt be looking really decent around 250lbs...on just a lower AAS dose...

 

[vlad878]

someone that cycles will still be bigger after he stops using than someone that trained natty because he will be at his genetic limit and the natty person it could take him 20 years to reach it

 

[qwerty_uk]

someone that cycles will still be bigger after he stops using than someone that trained natty because he will be at his genetic limit and the natty person it could take him 20 years to reach it

Also I know people that have used AAS to go behond there natural limit and then have take months off AAS / training to come back and after a few weeks natural are bigger than they would be naturally.

Which makes sense to me, if you use AAS to stretch the cells +50% Then once natural you'd only have to fill the cell 66% to be at 100% if natural

 

[Tyrone]

Wasen't me bro , I'm prepping for a show now thats the end of July , but i'm gonna do my first one (small local) the end of this month just to get a feel forbeing on stage and listening to the judges and stuff. I'm certainly not anywhere close to nation level conditioning this year !! I'm the leanest I've ever been right now and probably in the 8-10% range

I know I'm not close to being a national level competitor (I don't have the build for it) and would be happy just doing well at state level shows , I'm not planning to do this to make a lifestyle out of it , just a personal goal i set for myself. I'll probably always be into bodybuilding but doubt i'll take it any farther than what i have now. It takes alot away from my family life and rightnow my kids are as excited about it as me , but it has taken some time away from them and i'm not real happy about that.
I've been between 280-300lbs for years at about 18-22% off cycle , so I'm pretty sure I can maintain 240-250ish lbs naturaly at a reasonably lean bf%

Damn Gunsmith...280-300lbs@18-22%BF while off?! Didn't realize you were as big as you are bruther! How tall again?

Anyways, at least your kids are excited about it. It prob. makes up for at least a tiny bit of the lost time with them, although I'm sure it can make things rough.

I just think that it all depends on the specific person and there's way too many variables to keep it relative. Some seem to hold onto much more than others and some seem to lose it all...Some say they're off when they're really on etc...But then there's a starting point which is tough to define...Like I said, too many variables for me to comprehend lol But I'd think that with our idea of a trt and lower dosed hgh, we'd maintain just fine...You're just never really 'off'

 

[the student]

All this leads me to wonder, are cycles with compounds that don't keep you hard good for mass gains due to fascial stretching? I like using prop. due to low water gain. Am I robbing myself of long term growth by not blowing up and getting that fascial stretch?

 

[Gunsmith]

Damn Gunsmith...280-300lbs@18-22%BF while off?! Didn't realize you were as big as you are bruther! How tall again?

Anyways, at least your kids are excited about it. It prob. makes up for at least a tiny bit of the lost time with them, although I'm sure it can make things rough.
'

I'm 6'2" , I got into the 280's early in highschool (Summer after freshamn year) and pretty much stay their and grew slowly building muscle and trimming away at the fat , little by little. Luckly I come from big people , My grandfather on my moms side said my dads family was bread from Draft Mules.

Its cool my kids enjoy me body building , they think its funny when people stare (yesterday at the zoo was awfull 92 deg 90% humidity , veins everywhere) and they are realy good about helping me with my eating reminding me what i can and cant have and when i can't have it they tell me it doesn't taset good anyway My son thinks its funny as shit to tell people that his dad is gonna get on a stage in a bikini (thanks to my wife their not refered to as "posing trunks" at my house)

 

[Tyrone]

I'm 6'2" , I got into the 280's early in highschool (Summer after freshamn year) and pretty much stay their and grew slowly building muscle and trimming away at the fat , little by little. Luckly I come from big people , My grandfather on my moms side said my dads family was bread from Draft Mules.

Its cool my kids enjoy me body building , they think its funny when people stare (yesterday at the zoo was awfull 92 deg 90% humidity , veins everywhere) and they are realy good about helping me with my eating reminding me what i can and cant have and when i can't have it they tell me it doesn't taset good anyway My son thinks its funny as shit to tell people that his dad is gonna get on a stage in a bikini (thanks to my wife their not refered to as "posing trunks" at my house)

Haha! Good stuff man...I'll get back at ya via mail in a sec.