Post workout meal and fruit

[homonunculus]

Well there we have it. Another case of multiple studies contradicting each other!

Please outline the contradictions, if you would, ideally by supporting your statements with references to specific studies themselves.

(Let's dig on this, man. Not just hand wave. )

-S

 

[nothuman]

Please outline the contradictions, if you would, ideally by supporting your statements with references to specific studies themselves.

(Let's dig on this, man. Not just hand wave. )

-S

Here is one I am thinking of
http://ergo-log.com/shake-with-just-whey-works-better-than-shake-with-whey-and-carbs.html

I think I saw another on SuppVersity but could be thinking of the same one.

If you see any flaws in the one I posted, I'd be happy to hear what you think.

 

[nothuman]

On the subject of glycogen replenishment, my post workout combo has been whey and coffee.

Post-Workout Coffee Boosts Glycogen Repletion by Up to 30% and May Even Have Sign. Glucose Partitioning Effects - SuppVersity: Nutrition and Exercise Science for Everyone

http://suppversity.blogspot.com/2017/02/more-evidence-in-favor-of-post-workout.html

 

[homonunculus]

Here is one I am thinking of
http://ergo-log.com/shake-with-just-whey-works-better-than-shake-with-whey-and-carbs.html

I think I saw another on SuppVersity but could be thinking of the same one.

If you see any flaws in the one I posted, I'd be happy to hear what you think.

That's an interesting study - it actually points more so, IMO, to the importance of protein *timing* as much as anything else.

https://jissn.biomedcentral.com/track/pdf/10.1186/s12970-015-0109-4

IF you look at (and we trust) the dietary logs, the carb only group (no protein post-workout in the supplement) had what seemed to be, practically speaking, higher caloric and protein intake (about 15% higher relative to body mass in both cases, in comparison to the other groups), but faired less well when it came to body comp changes (fat loss, specifically).

The changes in FFM were essentially identical in all cases (so no advantage for any camp there), but when they expressed relative to changes in body weight (where the protein only meant fat loss - not an unusual finding), this is where those changes in ∆ FFM show up...

Look at the muscle CSA data and no advantage really for any group, but the carb only might be lagging if anything, perhaps if the study were carried out for a longer time...

So, these data might be a function of ceiling effects in these newbie trainees (even with the preparatory period of training), when it comes to muscle gains. (The Tarpenning study was with recreationally trained subjects, but the Bird et al. study with newbies.) It's very cool that the protein only timing brought on fat loss where carbs seemed to prevent that, so chalk that up to protein and it's timing relative to the workout. (This could have also causes some appetite reduction that impacted food intake post-workout, too...)

One potential difference here, too, is that the Hulmi et al. study included just a post-workout supplement (without any instructions as to food thereafter), whereas the other two studies used true intra-workout drinks.

When you consider that during a workout, there's increased blood flow to the trained muscle with relative hyperinsulinemia, hyperaminoacidemia and hyperglycemia, presenting the muscle with an anti-catabolic, anabolic and glycogen preserving environment, I have the sense, especially if your'e REALLY training hard, that this can make a difference over the long haul. (Many clients and people I've spoken to, notice a distinct different when using an intra-workout vs. just a post-workout meal, but it's not universal and of course has A LOT to do with the meal timing before a workout, too, as a pre-workout meal can essentially take the form of intra-workout nutrient provision.)

So, there are some thoughts on that study. I really think it's important to take a look at design, measurements and how the data are presented (e.g., relative the changes in body mass), all of which can dramatically change the easy takeaways if one doesn't dig into the papers.

-S

 

[Kaladryn]

Oh i no what science states.

However unless in a keto style diet
This process won’t just automatically switch on in the PWO environment. Glycogen stores will be replenished over time from CHO thats if they ever really get badly depleted really depleted from a weight lifting workout.

I couldn’t find anything in the link you posted regarding just pure protein Pwo getting turned into glycogen was my point/question


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I no this bud.

Does it easily happen Pwo tho if we just have protein. Im less inclined to think so.

See my above post


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Actually, you are already in a catabolic environment where amino acids are getting converted to glucose via gluconeogenesis PWO, this has nothing to do with ketosis.

 

[homonunculus]

As far as carbohydrate being requisite for muscle glycogen restoration, this has been known since the late 60's when Bergstrom, Hultman, Saltin and others were pioneering the muscle biopsy technique in conjunction with demonstrating the importance of glycogen for (endurance) exercise performance. They'd vary the glycogen level by changing the carbohydrate content of the diet in combination with depleting exercise.


E.g.: Bergström J, Hermansen L, Hultman E, and Saltin B. Diet, Muscle Glycogen and Physical Performance. Acta Physiol Scand 71: 140-150, 1967. https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1111/j.1748-1716.1967.tb03720.x

Abstract The muscle glycogen content of the quadriceps femoris muscle was determined in 9 healthy subjects with the aid of the needle biopsy technique. The glycogen content could be varied in the individual subjects by instituting different diets after exhaustion of the glycogen store by hard exercise. Thus, the glycogen content after a fat ± protein (P) and a carbohydrate-rich (C) diet varied maximally from 0.6 g/100g muscle to 4.7 g. In all subjects, the glycogen content after the C diet was higher than the normal range for muscle glycogen, determined after the mixed (M) diet. After each diet period, the subjects worked on a bicycle ergometer at a work load corresponding to 75 per cent of their maximal O2 uptake, to complete exhaustion. The average work time was 59, 126 and 189 min after diets P, M and C, and a good correlation was noted between work time and the initial muscle glycogen content. The total carbohydrate utilization during the work periods (54–798 g) was well correlated to the decrease in glycogen content. It is therefore concluded that the glycogen content of the working muscle is a determinant for the capacity to perform long-term heavy exercise. Moreover, it has been shown that the glycogen content and, consequently, the long-term work capacity can be appreciably varied by instituting different diets after glycogen depletion.

---------------

-S

 

[gungalunga]

Maybe I'll get some pineapple on my post-workout pizza tomorrow.....

 

[homonunculus]

I've only seen a single study in rats where whey protein promoted glycogen synthesis, as well as studies (again in rodents) suggesting that the di and tri-peptides in hydrolyzed whey may have an effect on glycogen synthesis, independent of insulin.

1. Kanda A, Morifuji M, Fukasawa T, Koga J, Kanegae M, Kawanaka K, and Higuchi M. Dietary whey protein hydrolysates increase skeletal muscle glycogen levels via activation of glycogen synthase in mice. J Agric Food Chem 60: 11403-11408, 2012.
2. Morifuji M, Sakai K, Sanbongi C, and Sugiura K. Dietary whey protein increases liver and skeletal muscle glycogen levels in exercise-trained rats. Br J Nutr 93: 439-445, 2005.
1. Morato PN, Lollo PC, Moura CS, Batista TM, Camargo RL, Carneiro EM, and Amaya-Farfan J. Whey protein hydrolysate increases translocation of GLUT-4 to the plasma membrane independent of insulin in wistar rats. PLoS One 8: e71134, 2013.

Some this may be related to a cellular swelling effect, which seems the anabolic generally speaking:

1. Armstrong JL, Bonavaud SM, Toole BJ, and Yeaman SJ. Regulation of glycogen synthesis by amino acids in cultured human muscle cells. J Biol Chem 276: 952-956, 2001.
2. Meijer AJ. Amino acids as regulators and components of nonproteinogenic pathways. J Nutr 133: 2057s-2062s, 2003.

The above ties in with why staying glycogen replete ASAP could be important, even if one isn't training later in the day for instance: Doing so may be important to create a cellular internal milieu that promotes muscle growth: "swollen" due to the osmotic effect of glycogen storage and also loaded with immediate stored energy to fuel anabolic (protein synthetic) processes.

(To conceptualize this in another way, imagine a muscle cell that is dehydrated and low on energy stores: Do these seem like circumstances whereby it makes sense to engage overhauling and enlarging the contractile apparatus to make the cell larger, or rather a time to put the brakes on unnecessary uses of cellular energy stores?...)

-S

 

[OutToLunch]

Reference: meals on wheels

 

[G-FLUX]

I've only seen a single study in rats where whey protein promoted glycogen synthesis, as well as studies (again in rodents) suggesting that the di and tri-peptides in hydrolyzed whey may have an effect on glycogen synthesis, independent of insulin.

1. Kanda A, Morifuji M, Fukasawa T, Koga J, Kanegae M, Kawanaka K, and Higuchi M. Dietary whey protein hydrolysates increase skeletal muscle glycogen levels via activation of glycogen synthase in mice. J Agric Food Chem 60: 11403-11408, 2012.
2. Morifuji M, Sakai K, Sanbongi C, and Sugiura K. Dietary whey protein increases liver and skeletal muscle glycogen levels in exercise-trained rats. Br J Nutr 93: 439-445, 2005.
1. Morato PN, Lollo PC, Moura CS, Batista TM, Camargo RL, Carneiro EM, and Amaya-Farfan J. Whey protein hydrolysate increases translocation of GLUT-4 to the plasma membrane independent of insulin in wistar rats. PLoS One 8: e71134, 2013.

Some this may be related to a cellular swelling effect, which seems the anabolic generally speaking:

1. Armstrong JL, Bonavaud SM, Toole BJ, and Yeaman SJ. Regulation of glycogen synthesis by amino acids in cultured human muscle cells. J Biol Chem 276: 952-956, 2001.
2. Meijer AJ. Amino acids as regulators and components of nonproteinogenic pathways. J Nutr 133: 2057s-2062s, 2003.

The above ties in with why staying glycogen replete ASAP could be important, even if one isn't training later in the day for instance: Doing so may be important to create a cellular internal milieu that promotes muscle growth: "swollen" due to the osmotic effect of glycogen storage and also loaded with immediate stored energy to fuel anabolic (protein synthetic) processes.

(To conceptualize this in another way, imagine a muscle cell that is dehydrated and low on energy stores: Do these seem like circumstances whereby it makes sense to engage overhauling and enlarging the contractile apparatus to make the cell larger, or rather a time to put the brakes on unnecessary uses of cellular energy stores?...)

-S

Thanks for this bit of research scott!

 

[Elvia1023]

Some of you guys probably wouldn't believe the amount of fruit I am going through now. I only plan to up my intake as well. Pretty much on a daily basis I have grapes, blueberries, apples, kiwis, clementines, banana, melon and pineapple.

 

[Phidias]

For YEARS now, mainly after I first worked with Phil (Hernon) back in the early 2000's, fruits have been BY FAR my main daily sources of carbs, sometimes ONLY ONE for weeks straight... never seemed to cause me any issue putting on LEAN mass or lose bf... quite the opposite actually...

 

[thethinker48]

For YEARS now, mainly after I first worked with Phil (Hernon) back in the early 2000's, fruits have been BY FAR my main daily sources of carbs, sometimes ONLY ONE for weeks straight... never seemed to cause me any issue putting on LEAN mass or lose bf... quite the opposite actually...

Guy (on test, tren, GH and anadrol): will fruit inhibit muscle growth?

[emoji849][emoji58]

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[MR. BMJ]

Just when you think Homon is a fictional MIA character of our imagination, he drops the hammer on info:headbang:

 

[emeric delczeg]

For YEARS now, mainly after I first worked with Phil (Hernon) back in the early 2000's, fruits have been BY FAR my main daily sources of carbs, sometimes ONLY ONE for weeks straight... never seemed to cause me any issue putting on LEAN mass or lose bf... quite the opposite actually...

Especially eating fruits and cottage cheese together.

 

[homonunculus]

Just when you think Homon is a fictional MIA character of our imagination, he drops the hammer on info:headbang:

LOL! Still trolling around in here.

(I was just pondering how many times I've seen it misconstrued to some degree that fruit is essentially all the same and nearly universally almost entirely made up of fructose in it's carbohydrate composition, other than fiber of course.

Echoing what some others had said, an old buddy of mine lived in Thailand for a year or so and said ate, d/t cost, simplicity and b/c it was tasty for him, almost solely chicken and pineapple. He essentially couldn't help but lean out and stay that way, something he wasn't expecting or trying to do. I jokingly asked him if that was the Thai Dbol crusted chicken that he was eating... )

-S

 

[xpoc]

Why is there a need to hurry up and replenish glycogen with fast absorbing sugars? I can understand if you are going to be training again later in the day, but if you don't train again for 24-48 hours why not just let it get replenished at a regular rate through protein sources?

I knew I read this somewhere...I found the article with associated study. According to this article there is no rush to quickly replenish your glycogen. This indicates if you simply eat normally throughout the day your glycogen will be replenished and there is (generally) no benefit to swilling down simple sugars intra workout.

https://www.biolayne.com/articles/nutrition/intra-workout-carbohydrates-carb-not-carb/

Here is a quote from the article:

"Many consume carbohydrates during or directly after a training session to replenish glycogen levels immediately. The literature has shown that glycogen replenishment will happen within 24 hours regardless of when carbohydrates are consumed."

 

[Beti ona]

In my opinion, the use of hydrates PWO and in some other after meal, is not to replenish the glycogen, but to take advantage of insulin sensitivity and promote anabolism. Depending on your type of training, diet and metabolism, you can boost your muscle gains, or get fat.

 

[homonunculus]

I knew I read this somewhere...I found the article with associated study. According to this article there is no rush to quickly replenish your glycogen. This indicates if you simply eat normally throughout the day your glycogen will be replenished and there is (generally) no benefit to swilling down simple sugars intra workout.

https://www.biolayne.com/articles/nutrition/intra-workout-carbohydrates-carb-not-carb/

Here is a quote from the article:

"Many consume carbohydrates during or directly after a training session to replenish glycogen levels immediately. The literature has shown that glycogen replenishment will happen within 24 hours regardless of when carbohydrates are consumed."

The info. in this thread evolved a bit since you last posted. You might interested in looking above regarding the topics of glycogen levels and replenishing glycogen sans dietary carbohydrate.

-S